FFXIII-2

[Correction]

I think the fact that you couldnt find a good pic is testament to the idea that character design was never a big enough deal in the past for them to want to have featured it publicly.

The Final Fantasy III SNES manual (as well as the official Nintendo strategy guide from 1994) is full of Amano's artwork, what the fuck are you even talking about.

[Spira]

lol wut? More polygons = more detail. FFIX and XII pushed the limits on what the PS1 and PS2 could handle (not just in poly count), as a result producing some of the best looking games. It wasn't because they artistically felt they needed to hold back or something.

more polygons = more shape detail yes. but extra shape detail is not necessarily better looking. Lets take 2 comparisons on the PS1 and PS2 platforms.
FFVIII looks better than FFIX. May not have been as obvious before on SD but with most people having HD tvs, you'd probably have noticed a huge difference between the 2 if you played the more recent PSN re-releases.
FFVIII has a lower polygon count than IX on characters, and when upscaled looks way sharper and suffers from far less anti-aliasing than IX does, especially for its edges. You'll also be able to note that VIII is visually a lot cleaner than IX, which by general standards of opinion, looks better.

Then theres FFX and FFXII. FFXII uses far less polygons per character, but delivers much better details on characters. Why is this so? because the trick to better looking graphics is not just a polygon count game. The other tool that was utilized to great effect for XII was hq quality skin textures. something which allows you to provide a lot more detail than if you were to simply push up the polygon count. Played on a HD capable TV, the upscaling makes the dirty edges of high polygon count models more obvious, but not for lower polygon models with well-utilized textures.

my point then really, is that pushing polygon-count had little at all to do with making the games look better. in fact, they end up making it look worse in quite a few cases - FFIX being a prime example.

The Final Fantasy III SNES manual (as well as the official Nintendo strategy guide from 1994) is full of Amano's artwork, what the fuck are you even talking about.

I have no idea what the original point of contention is anymore.. but sorry, do you play the game or its SNES manual? How many people have even read the Nintendo strategy guide? Back in the day, any and all of such media was supplementary to the game, and a very small component of it. If we're going to use old school FFs as further examples, if the character designs were anywhere near vital, you'd think the sprites themselves would actually be made to resemble them in some ways.. but many of them don't, nor do they even try to. Firion on FF2's box art has the whole bandana game, in game, he looks like an FF1 WAR (i'm talking about original NES version). when it was rereleased, they made it a point to change his in-game sprite to reflect his character design.

Visual representation in older games was very divided in this aspect. For all intents and purposes, sprites in their original form would probably never have been meant to fully be a representation of the characters design, but neither would illustration outside the game be considering a crucial element other than to inspire players into believing they are related. It was there in some ways for players who WANTED to see it. Now the case is that all players will have to see it because the in-game representation matches up with whatever design was drawn up for it.

but for a 3d case study, look to FFIX. Amano did character design, but most of the in-game character models and FMV designs didn't follow closely to this at all. Which then is the "character design"?

[Xno Kappa]

This will also apply to everyone else that said something similar; you just were the first to answer.

I didn't actually imply anything else in my comment than what it meant which is: however amazing and original their designs were in 1995 or whatever, they were still restricted by the technology of the time. I am still more interested in playing a game that looks smooth by today's standard than the sprites from back then.

If you say you'd rather play FFVI however shitty it looked than a remade version of it that's exactly the same thing except for the graphics, you all really need to get the nostalgia goggles off.



Not sure which barn side you were shooting with that bazooka but you missed it by a long shot.

Nope. Just you completely missing the point again. But hey, we can continue to talk about stupid shit like which FF had the best graphics or whatever asinine shit you think this discussion is about.

[Tyrath]

I have no idea what the original point of contention is anymore.. but sorry, do you play the game or its SNES manual? How many people have even read the Nintendo strategy guide? Back in the day, any and all of such media was supplementary to the game, and a very small component of it.

The original point of contention was people talking about the art design of Lulu vs Kefka. Where the SNES manuals are MORE relevant than the game. This is why you don't randomly start saying things if you don't know what the conversation was.

[miokomioko]

When all is said and done, they didn't let Nomura touch XIII-2's costume design... thank God for that.

Anyhow, I didn't really see it discussed, but it seems like you'll actually have weapon choices for Noel and Serah instead of each character being stuck with one weapon type throughout the game. Noel is confirmed to wield either two swords or a spear while Serah is confirmed to use either a bow or sword. I would bet money that one weapon type will be magic-focused while the other is strength-focused. Though I am not sure how they'll let you obtain new weapons with Serah since Mog is her weapon.

[Xno Kappa]

Moogle crystals to upgrade and/or obtain new powers. You heard it here first.

[miokomioko]

cop out!

[Gokulo]

He's Etro's minion/avatar of sorts and will evolve thorough the story to become the ultimate weapon of doom in Serah's hands in the end!

Kupooooo~ (the voice is hella cut, but god do I think I will get annoyed with that fast)

[Elcura]

my point then really, is that pushing polygon-count had little at all to do with making the games look better. in fact, they end up making it look worse in quite a few cases - FFIX being a prime example.

Character quality will always be dependant on the artist (well, say that about everything art related) - but more polygons DO in fact back the game look better. It's not just the characters. IX and XII used less on characters and more everywhere else. The whole picture in IX and XII looks a lot better than VIII and X. Naturally this is all subjective, so I won't mention that much again.

Then theres FFX and FFXII. FFXII uses far less polygons per character, but delivers much better details on characters. Why is this so? because the trick to better looking graphics is not just a polygon count game.

More important that poly count is how you use them. If you can get similar quality on your characters for less polys, then you do it. XII needed to do this because everything was far more intense. You had the main characters on screen, their weapons, the backgrounds (and all that shit that goes with them), VFX/particles and enemies. X was relatively static compared, the game play allowed for that.

It's not because of less polys overall, it's the same, but when you can efficiently make characters, you can use the polys in other areas of the game. Poly count is greatly important for both looks and performance. It's not the only thing that dictates how good the game looks, but you better be damn sure that it's the start. Everything you add to the game you add on top of polys. As a 3D artist, you live and die by them.

The other tool that was utilized to great effect for XII was hq quality skin textures. something which allows you to provide a lot more detail than if you were to simply push up the polygon count.

They used better quality of textures on everything. Of course textures matter in terms of graphical quality (for all things), but polygons are the basis for everything. You think if SE had upped the poly count on characters they wouldn't look better? Because they would. If SE have to choose between an alpha channel texture (single plane poly, the cheapest there is) to describe detail, and actual polygons and textures, they would choose what was wisest for overall quality.

But if they had the choice - a completely free choice - they would pick more polygons over less.

The reason why SE didn't though, is for the above reasons (overall graphical quality). It isn't as easy as saying I want so many polys and so big texture resolution.

More polygons also mean better deformation in animation and more freedom to artistically create something accurate to the concept. The latter may not seem like a big deal, but it's the difference between FFVII field graphics and FFVII battle graphics.

IX and XII used what they had far more efficiently that VIII or X, which is why IX is so animated and lively. Both games showed more freedom than their predecessors, in terms of VFX, lighting and camera movement, as well as characters, enemies etc.

Played on a HD capable TV, the upscaling makes the dirty edges of high polygon count models more obvious, but not for lower polygon models with well-utilized textures.

Upscaling makes the truth more obvious (you often want to hide harshness in the textures and models, you make graphics with the end resolution in mind - this will never change). It makes the silhouettes clearer. More polys will show this silhouette, but less polys has no distinct silhouettes to show off, which is why it looks sharper (cause literally, it IS sharper).

In the end, polygons are the basis - the starting point - for 3D graphics. You can always do better with more polys than you can with less. Experience and skill though, will always tell you that how you use your polys is more important than how many you have. But if you already know how to use them, then having more will never hurt.

[Insanecyclone]

I have no idea if this was posted yet.

http://ps3.rpgsite.net/news/1125-fin...sc-on-xbox-360

Final Fantasy XIII-2 Will Be Multi-Disc on Xbox 360

Much like its predecessor, Final Fantasy XIII, it seems that Final Fantasy XIII-2 will also ship on multiple DVDs.

Speaking with Just Push Start, Square-Enix confirmed that the game will indeed span at least 3 to 4 discs on the Xbox 360, depending on how much data they’ll have to compress this time around. The PlayStation 3 version, however, will of course be just one.

This comes as no surprise as we’ve seen quite an increase in multi-disc games on the Xbox 360 lately; clearly showing the limitations of the DVD format when it comes to high definition development.

We've got a full interview with Motomu Toriyama and Yoshinori Kitase, the Director and Producer of the game with plenty of information on everything from towns to the differences between the 360 and PS3 versions this time around through this link!

[orson]

^ Color me surprised!

[Lovex]

I see so many arguments or discussions about looks and etc. How valuable is the story and plot to most of you? I saw an interesting article about the "evolution of the gamer" and it got me thinking, do we really care about story anymore as a gaming generation? I know we used too.

The prime reason I can't get into the numbered installments of FF anymore, the storylines don';t seem nearly as hefty, interesting or epic. Is this shared with people? It's not nostalgia right? The games are beautiful but I need a good story to keep me playing. Most times I feel like I'm alone in that. I tried playing 13 again and the story was just soo uninteresting. Maybe it's a sign of growth?

What are peoples opinions on Square STORY telling value? Is it just me or has it been lacking?

[Raen Ryong]

I'm not going to judge 1/2/3 storyline since it was in a time where storylines weren't really developed much but in my opinion,

4 - Good if somewhat basic. Cecil as a main character was pretty interesting and the game had constant plot twists.
5 - Much simpler but solid. A few twists but weaker than 4's on the whole.
6 - Needless to say, very strong.
7 - Very strong. Epic, emotional and although Sephiroth's value as a villain is often very exaggerated, I felt he was an interesting enemy.
8 - It was okay. A bit messy. Ultimecia was a bit wtf.
9 - Necron was a bit wtf but it's forgivable. Strong.
10 - Very strong. Powerful, tragic and epic.
12 - Weak. The delivery I felt was poor and aside from a few climaxes the story was slow and not developed in the way I would have liked. Character development also a weak point.
13 - Good. Not as many plot twists as other FFs but with unique themes as far as the series goes.

[Gokulo]

Maybe it's a sign of growth?

Most this. And nostalgia. FF was always a teenagers game, it didn't mature with its players, instead it focused on the specific demographic.

[Eaglestrike]

Most this. And nostalgia. FF was always a teenagers game, it didn't mature with its players, instead it focused on the specific demographic.

FFXII and FFXIII would like to have a word with you.

Sure, you still had the young male "lead" in XII, but it was essentially a political story focused on Ashe (an older character, 20's or so) seen through the eyes of that young male.

In XIII they scrapped the young male lead entirely and most of the characters are more adult and responding in fairly expected manners to the situation they're thrown into. Sahz particularly was a good character for an adult to connect with.

I've felt XII and XIII have only continued to improve. To me I don't expect to feel the same sense of wonder in a new game to the same level that I did when I first started gaming. When I was in 7th grade and obsessed over VII that's something different than now, I'm more mature, I have more control over myself and more things I need to be aware of, I can't let myself get fully absorbed into a game. That said, I still put in a lot of time over a short period to complete those two games quickly. The fantasy genre isn't anything close to new for me by now either, everything is just a mix and match of stories I've already heard, whereas when I picked up VII, that was the first time I experienced anything like that. These days...? Yeah, I've gone through that a few times, it's not quite as good.

I'm sure you can compare it directly to a lot of other things in life. Drinking, awesome when you're younger, but eventually you don't drink as much, if at all once you're a bit older. Sex, you fuck like bunnies first weeks/months/years, but then it dies out to every couple weeks/months, etc. When you first get into something, it's "omg wow I want more!" but after a few years, while you can still enjoy it, it'll never be quite to the level as one of the early times you did it.

Not to mention the combat systems in XII and XIII have been major improvements in many ways over earlier games. Not perfect, but clear improvements to me.

[Kaslo]

I haven't felt epicness since FFVI to be honest, but I think that was a product of the HUGE cast and how (for the most part) each one really grew during the game.

[miokomioko]

12 - Weak. The delivery I felt was poor and aside from a few climaxes the story was slow and not developed in the way I would have liked. Character development also a weak point.

I hate these derails, but...

The Occuria's dialogue...


and Gabranth's dialogue...


were enough to make me <3 the game. (Just have to ignore every time Vaan's idiotic face appears)

[Raen Ryong]

@above:

aside from a few climaxes the story was slow and not developed in the way I would have liked.

I agree, there were some points in the game where I thought "this is awesome". The dialogue as a whole was extremely well written (or maybe I'm just a sucker for that eloquent kind of English). As a whole though, I felt it was incredibly inconsistent (basically beginning + end of the game).

[Tyrath]

and Gabranth's dialogue...

This is my favorite scene of the game. "I slew your king. I slew your country!"

Gabranth is so boss.

[Correction]

(basically beginning + end of the game).

Interestingly enough, these parts of the game suffered largely due to SE's meddling, forcing the focus of the story away from awesome characters like Basch and more onto less interesting sideshows like Vaan.