Demystifying bst jug pet effectiveness

[Xilk]

I'd like to get solid information established for Beastmaster pets. I've been parsing and running tests to figure it out. I think bg probably has more active min/max number crunchers. I've been drudging through the mechanics formulas, but they are not all clear to me. Also, I'm not certain which ones will apply to pets in the same ways.


I have a google docs spreadsheet here. It has the summary information below and a little more.

Melee Damage									
Pet			M.Acc	M.Avg	C.Avg	Crit %	Damage	BaseDmg	TP/hit	Crit Attack +
AudaciousAnna 		92.19	478.11	518.53	30.51	168	144	6.9	108%
BloodclawShasra		90.4	485.11	524	28.32	170	146	6.4	108%
BugeyedBroncha		91.8	484.79	522.85	23.21	169	145	5.7	108%
ChopsueyChucky		94.07	374.18	374.13	27.93	122	103		100%
CourierCarrie		97.27	370.83	371	10.28	121	102		100%
DipperYuly		92.5	455.98	492.67	18.92	160	137	6.2	108%
DiscreetLouise		92.26	451.8	486.72	37.42	158	135	8.3	108%
FatsoFargann		94.74	476.69	512.91	30.56	167	143		108%
LuckyLulush		93.39	474.06	510.72	28.32	166	142	6.2	108%
MailbusterCetas		96.69	473.99	509.18	29.06	165	141	6.4	107%
NurseryNazuna		93.22	475.1	513.94	30	167	143		108%
PrestoJulio		95	480.01	518.61	24.56	169	145	7.4	108%
SwiftSieghard		95.8	481.42	520.28	25.44	168	144	7.4	108%

This summary comes from a parse of killing a little more than 100 mobs/pet vs level 0 mobs. There is no pet+ equipment present. I believe I can confirm Critical Attack bonus 2 for all these pet except carrie and chucky. I also think this helps confirm fencer 2 for the war type pets. (yuly is a thf)

The damage estimates were found with the following formula:
Damage = Base Damage x pDIF
Damage = X + floor(X/9)+8

However, I removed the floor function and solved for Base Damage which is 10/9 * the damage, which is why this is an estimate. this should be within 1 of the base damage, if it is a bit off.

The same level correction does not seem to apply to pets however. It is not clear to me how this is determined in pDIF. therefore I can't tell if this base damage is accurate or helpful and I'm not sure how to confirm this.

I would like to compare tp / hit to attack speed to see if it matches weapon delay also.

Also level has a large impact on damage. I can confirm that Nazuna is level 86 in this parse, and Broncha and Shasra are level 90. (Chuck and Carrie are level 75) Any ideas on how to confirm how level affects damage?

[Byrthnoth]

This parse reminds me very heavily of the summoner avatar tests:
http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html

pDIF is likely 4 (with the even 1.05 randomizer) whether it's a crit or not at capped cRatio.
BST pet damage is entirely dependent on fSTR, and 1 STR = 1 fSTR for them, which is why you see a large damage increase with level.

[Mifaco]

How much HP do the new jug pets have?

[Xilk]

How much HP do the new jug pets have?

Nazuna has the most, and the best test, the info on otherwiki is very accurate. At level 90 (BA merits) nazuna has 5430 hp. I didn't confirm that one, but I plan to confirm them all for level 90.

[Xilk]

This parse reminds me very heavily of the summoner avatar tests:
http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html

pDIF is likely 4 (with the even 1.05 randomizer) whether it's a crit or not at capped cRatio.
BST pet damage is entirely dependent on fSTR, and 1 STR = 1 fSTR for them, which is why you see a large damage increase with level.

thank you very much. This is way ahead of me ofcourse. this will help tremendously.

[Kegsay]

Some things which apply to avatars don't apply to other pets. The things which I believe are universal are:

(assuming capped PDIF)
- MAX pDIF = 4.2
- MIN pDIF = 3.8
'normal' max pdif is 4.0. This is then subjected to the 1.05x randomiser, which results in a true max/min of 4.2 and 3.8. Avatars seem to have something freaky here which puts the min/max to 4.0 and 4.2.

Criticals add 1.0 to pDIF for pets too, no special changes, but it cannot exceed pdif=4.0.
As you noted, pets do not have level penalties imposed, else their accuracy would suffer too much.
Weapon delay is the same for pets as it is for PCs. In other words, land 10 hits and use <pettp> and then /10 your answer and that's your TP/hit, which can then be worked backwards to find the delay.

I'm unfamiliar with modifiers for damage for BST pets. If it's like avatars though, you'll find that increasing raw stats (STR/DEX/etc) will have a very noticeable effect on damage. As we know, the only way to do this is with levelling up the pet or using atmas.

[Kegsay]

delicious double post

[Xilk]

Some things which apply to avatars don't apply to other pets. The things which I believe are universal are:

(assuming capped PDIF)
- MAX pDIF = 4.2
- MIN pDIF = 3.8
'normal' max pdif is 4.0. This is then subjected to the 1.05x randomiser, which results in a true max/min of 4.2 and 3.8. Avatars seem to have something freaky here which puts the min/max to 4.0 and 4.2.

Criticals add 1.0 to pDIF for pets too, no special changes, but it cannot exceed pdif=4.0.
As you noted, pets do not have level penalties imposed, else their accuracy would suffer too much.
Weapon delay is the same for pets as it is for PCs. In other words, land 10 hits and use <pettp> and then /10 your answer and that's your TP/hit, which can then be worked backwards to find the delay.

I'm unfamiliar with modifiers for damage for BST pets. If it's like avatars though, you'll find that increasing raw stats (STR/DEX/etc) will have a very noticeable effect on damage. As we know, the only way to do this is with levelling up the pet or using atmas.

It looks like my testing will be going to abyssea quicker than I expected.
So far it looks like the rules are the same, although the traits from pet jobs will vary.
bst will have variety of pet level, but its not too hard to check pet levels. BST melee hits are much more substantial than avatars however..
Do avatars even have jobs? It seems rather like avatar is the job itself, while bst pets are clearly war, pld, mnk, thf, and drk so far.

It will be interesting to see if I can cap pDif on pet in abyssea... probably not. I did not see a marked difference in adding str compared to attack before. Obviously pdif wasn't capped.

[Fereydoon]

IIRC Carby is a WHM, Fenrir is a DRK, Celestials + Diabolos are BLMs?

[Shalafi]

I don't think you can generalize celestials by job; their attacks and abilities are element based, not job based.

i.e.
Ifrit's abilities and attacks are STR/Atk based
Shiva's abilities and attacks are INT/MAB based
etc.

[Byrthnoth]

Huh? He's talking about their jobs, which determine their stat growth rates and give them job abilities.

[Shalafi]

If they are BLM then how do you account for high numbers with physical attacks or the fact that they can out damage fenrir.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Because different blood pacts have different properties? That's like asking how its possible that Hexa Strike is more powerful than Guillotine.

[Jeryhn]

I don't think you can generalize celestials by job; their attacks and abilities are element based, not job based.

i.e.
Ifrit's abilities and attacks are STR/Atk based
Shiva's abilities and attacks are INT/MAB based
etc.

If they are BLM then how do you account for high numbers with physical attacks or the fact that they can out damage fenrir.

What? No. Absolutely not. If all of Shiva's attacks were INT/MAB based, you would notice a clear difference using Atmas of the Beyond or Minikin Monstrosity on Rush. Moreover, if you use a universal MAB atma such as Ultimate, Hell's Guardian or Baying Moon, all avatars get an equal damage boost because their Tier2, Tier4 and Prime Bloodpacts (assuming equal merits) all deal the same amount of damage.

Avatars clearly are not associated with different stats, a myth perpetuated by the Zam SMN forums of yore.

IIRC, all summoned avatars with the exception of Carbuncle are considered BLM due to the fact that they test positive for Magic Attack Bonus. Carbuncle is WHM because of its Auto-Regen and its increased resistance against magic damage compared to the others.

The reason Celestials outdamage Fenrir with physical Bloodpacts is because the base damage on their Bloodpacts are generally higher than that of Eclipse Bite. It doesn't really matter if Fenrir has an Attack Boost compared to the other avatars in this regard, because all the Avatars also have naturally high attack. The reason their normal melee strike hit for so little is largely because their base damage is low compared to conventional melee weapon availability, from what I understand.

[Byrthnoth]

If you looked at the link I posted, you'd see that Celestial avatars have about 60 less attack than Fenrir and the same base damage. If you're talking about Predator Claws vs. Eclipse Bite, I'd say it's as easy to explain as 5 > 3.

So, looking at the tests it's fairly obvious that fSTR doesn't cap for these avatars and that 4 STR = 1 base damage. This leads to two options:
1) Their damage is entirely composed of fSTR
2) Their damage has some base damage that's dependent on level (like H2H), and then fSTR adds to that.

I'm a fan of the first solution, which would mean that avatars have highly irregular stat growth that doesn't match any specific job, but matches the "avatar" job. If you take it at that, his level 75 tests with Fenrir vs. Bees and Mandies (~D54)*, then this would make Fenrir's STR 221 (54*4 + 5? VIT for level 0 WAR).

221 (1 STR = 1 Attack) + 276 (A skill) + 60 (Attack Bonus V - a little early for DRK job) + 10 (every job gets this) = ~567 Attack for Fenrir : Blog guessed 570
221 (1 STR = 1 Attack) + 276 (A skill) + 10 (every job gets this) = 507 Attack for Celestial Avatars : Blog guessed 504
~196 (1 STR = 1 Attack) + 276 (A skill) + (Mysterious attack bonus) + 10 (every job gets this) = Somewhere between 504 and 570 attack.


*the reason he gets odd results in his Ecliptic Growl tests is almost certainly because Mandies (MNK) and Bees (WAR) have different VIT (looks like a difference of 3), so he was seeing a range of fSTRs and a resulting range of base damages.

[Shalafi]

What? No. Absolutely not. If all of Shiva's attacks were INT/MAB based

Didn't specify which attacks; I'll admit adding attack into that statement was incorrect.

If you looked at the link I posted

I'll admit I skimmed it for detail important or interesting to me.

Predator Claws vs. Eclipse Bite, I'd say it's as easy to explain as 5 > 3.

Both are 3-hit attacks


As for the rest of the information, it appears to be a shorter version of the link, etc; thank you for summarizing (as per above I skimmed the detail).

All I was trying to say, apparently very poorly, is that I don't believe avatars can be classified a specific job since much of their abilities are based on or related to their element. I agree, classification of avatar, part of the pet family, is probably the best representation.

[Byrthnoth]

Doh, I was thinking as Rush. But yeah, Avatar WSs doubtlessly have their own stat mods. Predator Claws got the lion's share of the good mods, Spinning Dive is similar to Gekko, etc.

People talk about them as jobs to justify the observed job traits.

[Niiro]

Also worth noting that predator claws can crit, which is unique among physical BPs.

Would be interesting to know what the fTP and WSC are for different BPs, but ultimately not the most useful info since it's not like you can gear them to any significant degree.

[Kegsay]

Also worth noting that predator claws can crit, which is unique among physical BPs.

Wrong, any physical BP can crit.

[Niiro]

Really? I had always understood that they functioned liked WSs, in that they required a specific property in order to have a chance to crit.

Predator claws is the only BP I've heard as being described as such. If they can indeed all crit I can't help but wonder what makes Pred so special.