Dev Tracker

[Darkmagi]

I was assuming it would be nerfed down to chant/blade: Hi levels, 15% crit rate loss is a pretty big deal. Blood rage nerf was also pointless. It won't cripple the job, but it was a completely unneeded nerf, and just shows how little the dev team knows about balancing.

[Apelila]

I was assuming it would be nerfed down to chant/blade: Hi levels, 15% crit rate loss is a pretty big deal. Blood rage nerf was also pointless. It won't cripple the job, but it was a completely unneeded nerf, and just shows how little the dev team knows about balancing.

replace "I put the fires out" with "We balanced the classes"

[Atoreis]

While I do think that Warrior needed a nerf, I feel bad for those that took Ukon to 95 thinking it would be their best DD weapon without a doubt (as I suspect this will put Bravura at top).

I seriously doubt Bravura will be on top even if Ukko go down extremely bad.

Byrth since you make this fast comparison pretty easily. Can you make one for something like 95Ukon wit Ukko 10% at 100TP vs Bravura Upheavel vs Bravura Torment. I can tell you some numbers to make it easier for You

Lets assume with new traits active too.
Ukko 178STR +11%crit rate +25%crit damage +3%WSD fTP 3.68
Upheavel 155STR 152VIT +3%WSD fTP 4.625
Torment 188STR +3% WSD fTP 4.25

[Raen Ryong]

I was assuming it would be nerfed down to chant/blade: Hi levels, 15% crit rate loss is a pretty big deal. Blood rage nerf was also pointless. It won't cripple the job, but it was a completely unneeded nerf, and just shows how little the dev team knows about balancing.

While I don't think I should be giving the current team that much credit, how much would you say Warrior needs to be nerfed to make it not miles above all other DD (to the point where they could in theory make all DD jobs at least comparative - a pipe dream, but let's just imagine it for the moment)?

[Greatguardian]

While I don't think I should be giving the current team that much credit, how much would you say Warrior needs to be nerfed to make it not miles above all other DD (to the point where they could in theory make all DD jobs at least comparative - a pipe dream, but let's just imagine it for the moment)?

Define "other DD" first.

Warrior doesn't exactly have A+ evasion, a customizable pet, Magic Spells, or Party Buffs to work with. Bringing Warrior's damage potential on par to, say, Puppetmaster or Thief is disingenuous.

The only jobs you can really compare Warrior directly to are Samurai, Monk, Dark Knight, and maybe Dragoon if you're feeling spiffy. In those cases, any sort of Warrior nerf at all will bring it decidedly below Samurai and possibly Monk as well even if it doesn't bring it down to where Dark Knight and Dragoon are right now.

[Darkmagi]

I would much rather them buff up other jobs, rather than weaken one job. WAR is far from "broken", it's pretty much just like 75 at the moment. WAR=SAM>MNK(Unless seigan I'd imagine), with other jobs a decent bit behind. The reason WAR is so strong is because damage is it's only real niche. I was always under the belief that jobs that have solo utility and other niche uses should be a little bit weaker than mainstream DDs. (DRG, DNC, THF, NIN, BLU, PUP, etc.) DRK has access to stun and other magic, which is it's trade off for having slightly less damage.

[Lordender]

Tanaka's attempt to balance a highschool football game at cowboys stadium.

[NynJa]

This is how SE nerfs shit, and its going to be a really WILD example:
Man (unwillingly) wants to get a vasectomy
Man goes to the SE medical center.
SE doctors perform surgery, and instead of giving a vasectomy, they cut off his penis...with an old rusty knife to make matters worse.

[Raen Ryong]

I would much rather them buff up other jobs, rather than weaken one job. WAR is far from "broken", it's pretty much just like 75 at the moment. WAR=SAM>MNK(Unless seigan I'd imagine), with other jobs a decent bit behind. The reason WAR is so strong is because damage is it's only real niche. I was always under the belief that jobs that have solo utility and other niche uses should be a little bit weaker than mainstream DDs. (DRG, DNC, THF, NIN, BLU, PUP, etc.) DRK has access to stun and other magic, which is it's trade off for having slightly less damage.

The problem with buffing everyone is that it trivializes content (yeah yeah I know, most of it is trivial anyway); if you have a few outliers who are way ahead of the pack, it makes more sense to nerf the outliers.

"a little bit weaker" I agree with. Night and day like it is I do not. If we are considering a group setting, we have to assess just how useful the utility that the other jobs bring to the table is. THF can evasion tank (and TH I suppose but I don't see having TH being a good reason to lower damage output by much) but Warrior/Samurai/etc can PDT tank far more effectively. DRK's only real useful spell in a group setting the majority of the time is Stun, and I don't think damage output should suffer that much over a single spell that other jobs also have access to. Etc etc.

You could also consider "proc utility" a part of the argument (which would say that Warrior has tons of these and therefore also shouldn't have highest damage) but I can't justify a job being balanced around a feature introduced to a limited amount of content.

You may ask "if <x job> was in the same ballpark of damage as Warrior, why bring a Warrior?!" - while there may be some truth to this, the alternative is "<x job> is nowhere near the damage of a Warrior. Why bring them?"; an overall rebalancing means that you'd be able to play the job you want to play, not one which you are "forced to play" due to damage tiering.

I know FFXI has never worked this way and I am likely just espousing something which people do not want, but I have always thought the ideal situation would be where all DD jobs are at least competitive with each other in the world of damage.

[Hirronimus]

I feel like I'm being castrated with a dull rusty knife

[Darkmagi]

I just feel that light DDs should never be up to par with the defenseless heavy DDs. If not purely because of their solo utility, most of them have other utlity as well. DRK is already almost as good as the top 3, and gains stun to make up for some of it's lost damage. I don't see a problem with drk really.

[Forte]

Can we shoot him now?

[Byrthnoth]

I seriously doubt Bravura will be on top even if Ukko go down extremely bad.

Byrth since you make this fast comparison pretty easily. Can you make one for something like 95Ukon wit Ukko 10% at 100TP vs Bravura Upheavel vs Bravura Torment. I can tell you some numbers to make it easier for You

Lets assume with new traits active too.
Ukko 178STR +11%crit rate +25%crit damage +3%WSD fTP 3.68
Upheavel 155STR 152VIT +3%WSD fTP 4.625
Torment 188STR +3% WSD fTP 4.25

It depends what your cRatio is and what their VIT is. For a 100 VIT enemy, the setups work out to:
Ukko: 90+156+19 = 256 base damage
Upheaval: 129+158+13 = 300 base damage (Bravura assumed)
Torment: 95+158+22 = 275 base damage

You can directly compare Upheaval and Torment assuming the attack is the same, not that you actually need to do math on it:
Upheaval: 300*4.625*1.03 = 1429
Torment: 275*4.25*1.03 = 1203
So Upheaval does 18~19% more damage than Torment

For Ukko's, the calculation is going to depend on your ratio. Your assuming you have the same ratio with each weapon, the difference between a critical to normal hit damage is going to vary from about 3 (Ratio=.75) to 1.5 (Ratio = 2) under pretty normal conditions. In voidwatch with Attack buffs and your +25% crit damage, a 2.25x ratio is probably about right.
Ukko: 256*3.68*1.03*(.21*2.25 + .79) = 1225 (same scale as Upheaval)

If we bump it up to 3:
Ukko: 256*3.68*1.03*(.21*3 + .79) = 1377 (same scale as Upheaval)

Or down to 1.5:
Ukko: 256*3.68*1.03*(.21*1.5 + .79) = 1072 (same scale as Upheaval)


So a very nerfed Ukko's edges out Metatron in some situations (non-trash mobs) and gets pretty well stomped by Upheaval, even under pretty low pDIF conditions (pDIF<1).

[Greatguardian]

The problem with buffing everyone is that it trivializes content (yeah yeah I know, most of it is trivial anyway); if you have a few outliers who are way ahead of the pack, it makes more sense to nerf the outliers.

"a little bit weaker" I agree with. Night and day like it is I do not. If we are considering a group setting, we have to assess just how useful the utility that the other jobs bring to the table is. THF can evasion tank (and TH I suppose but I don't see having TH being a good reason to lower damage output by much) but Warrior/Samurai/etc can PDT tank far more effectively. DRK's only real useful spell in a group setting the majority of the time is Stun, and I don't think damage output should suffer that much over a single spell that other jobs also have access to. Etc etc.

You could also consider "proc utility" a part of the argument (which would say that Warrior has tons of these and therefore also shouldn't have highest damage) but I can't justify a job being balanced around a feature introduced to a limited amount of content.

You may ask "if <x job> was in the same ballpark of damage as Warrior, why bring a Warrior?!" - while there may be some truth to this, the alternative is "<x job> is nowhere near the damage of a Warrior. Why bring them?"; an overall rebalancing means that you'd be able to play the job you want to play, not one which you are "forced to play" due to damage tiering.

I know FFXI has never worked this way and I am likely just espousing something which people do not want, but I have always thought the ideal situation would be where all DD jobs are at least competitive with each other in the world of damage.

The answer to this is not to make the pure offensive DD weaker but to make the utility granted by the weaker, off-color DDs worth sacrificing the damage potential for.

[Taint]

UF shits on Shoha right now on T6 VW. I've been parsing on SAM vs a 95 and a 90 Ukon. Really tired of people saying Shoha is close of UF. After the nerf it will be closer and outside of VW will make SAM a very potent DD.

WAR will still be king in VW and Abyssea.

[Raen Ryong]

The answer to this is not to make the pure offensive DD weaker but to make the utility granted by the weaker, off-color DDs worth sacrificing the damage potential for.

What would you do to make this the case? Would have to be some pretty amazing utility

[Yukari]

Goddamnit. Fuck the old Dev team. We're going right back to where we were in 2006.

[NynJa]

UF shits on Shoha right now on T6 VW. I've been parsing on SAM vs a 95 and a 90 Ukon. Really tired of people saying Shoha is close of UF. After the nerf it will be closer and outside of VW will make SAM a very potent DD.

WAR will still be king in VW and Abyssea.

Am I the only one who read this and figured this guy a butthurt drk?

[Aurara]

This is what i read basically from the dev posts and such

[solanis]

WAR did need a nerf. I think the title of "pure DD" is a bit irrelevant in FFXI, given how powerful pdt/mdt gear and possibly utsusemi are.

no. war is a glass cannon, and our total lack of defensive capability was in good measure with our damage output. these nerfs are bullshit.