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Thread: Cast and Recast     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #21
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    I have a macc Yama's Staff (-12% recast for dark element spells), so I thought some Klimaform numbers might be interesting. Numbers done as SCH/BLM or SCH/SAM.

    Code:
    Klimaform - Default recast: 3:00 (180 seconds)
    
    2:51 (171)	Manifestation, Alacrity
    2:16 (136)	Manifestation, Alacrity, Argute Loafers (Voidstorm)
    
    2:51 (171)	Yama's
    2:16 (136)	Dark Arts, Relic Hat, AF Feet
    2:00 (120)	Dark Arts, Relic Hat, AF Feet, Yama's
    
    4:15 (255)	Seigan
    3:50 (250)	Seigan, Dark Arts
    3:45 (225)	Seigan, Yama's
    3:25 (205)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Relic Hat, AF Feet
    3:23 (203)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's
    3:00 (180)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Relic Hat, AF Feet, Yama's
    If you can think of any other combination of gear that would be interesting/useful, I also have Loq. and Incantor Stone (but no Rostrum Pumps or Augur's Gaiters).

    Edit: here's some quick ones with Sleep

    Code:
    Sleep - Default recast :30
    
    :57	Manifestation
    :50	Manifestation, Yama's
    :50	Manifestation, Relic Hat, AF Feet, Yama's
    :25	Dark Arts
    :28	Manifestation, Alacrity, Relic Hat, AF feet
    :22	Manifestation, Alacrity, Relic Hat, Relic Feet (Voidstorm)
    :20	Manifestation, Alacrity, Relic Hat, Relic Feet (Voidstorm), Yama's

  2. #22
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    I'm seeing Recast +90% from Manifestation and then -50/60% from Alacrity. It also looks like they're combined before they're applied, or they'd hit caps in either direction (Recast*.6 would be raised to Recast*.5 due to the floor; 180*1.9 would be floored to the 255 max recast).

    Dark Arts, Relic Hat, AF feet, I would have expected a 144 second recast based on the testing yesterday with Light Arts and Relic Hat/AF Feet.
    I'm also a little surprised to see that Yama's only reduced recast by 5% (180/171 = 95%).
    Assuming this works similarly to Fast Cast, that could be proof that it's only a 10% casting time reduction as well.

    Thanks for the complicated cases! I'll try to figure out what to make of them xD

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Thanks, I added sprinkled the information throughout the wiki. What happens when you Accession+Celerity something? "Normal" recast? With Argute Loafers/weather and Celerity/Accession, is it -10% or -20%? That should tell us if they're separate terms.
    Did you not read the massive text file I sent you? ;_;

    EDIT: hmmm somehow I missed celerity + accession. /sigh. did celerity + accession + hasso and Celerity +accession + mortarboard/loafers though.

  4. #24
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    Sorry man, I did look at your stuff and it matched the theory within the tolerance I'd expect from the recast plugin (-1~0 seconds with a 29 second base is kind of a large range). Klimaform is a different story though (wow, 3 minute recast? Jealousy.)

    For reference, he means this: http://pastebin.com/4ieCx35r

  5. #25
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    yeah klimaform recast blows balls, and it stack with manifestation if that'd be helpful. Just let me know.

    EDIT: I can redo some of the tests without recast plugin if you let me know which. I used stoneskin because reraise doesnt stack with accession, but I could do klimaform np.

  6. #26
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    Somehow my Goading Belt slipped in on all of the numbers I previously posted. Here's some fresh numbers without Goading Belt:

    Code:
    Klimaform - 3:00 (180)
    
    A.Hat = Argute Mortarboard (Grimoire: Reduces spellcasting time)
    A.Feet = Argute Loafers (Weather matches element: enhances Celerity/Alacrity)
    S.Feet = Scholar's Loafers (Grimoire: Reduces spellcasting time)
    
    2:42 (162)	Dark Arts
    2:38 (155)	Yama's
    2:38 (155)	Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet, Manifestation+Alacrity
    2:22 (142)	Dark Arts, Yama's
    2:06 (126)	Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet
    1:12 (72)	Dark Arts, Yama's, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    1:12 (72)	Dark Arts, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    
    4:15 (255)	Seigan
    4:15 (255)	Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, S.Feet, Manifestation+Alacrity
    4:03 (246)	Seigan, Dark Arts
    3:57 (237)	Seigan, Yama's
    3:36 (216)	Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, S.Feet
    3:33 (213)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's
    3:10 (190)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet
    1:48 (108)	Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    1:48 (108)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    1:35 (95)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    1:35 (95)	Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm)
    With the last 4 sets of numbers (Seigan w/ Alacrity+A.Feet), is Yama's breaking some sort of cap? I mean, I did both tests with and without A.Hat, so if they both had the same kind of recast reduction, it should have shown up in all of the timers with the hat?

    I have all of these Frapsed so I can go back and double check the numbers.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cymmina View Post
    Somehow my Goading Belt slipped in on all of the numbers I previously posted. Here's some fresh numbers without Goading Belt:

    Code:
    Klimaform - 3:00 (180)
    
    A.Hat = Argute Mortarboard (Grimoire: Reduces spellcasting time)
    A.Feet = Argute Loafers (Weather matches element: enhances Celerity/Alacrity)
    S.Feet = Scholar's Loafers (Grimoire: Reduces spellcasting time)
    
    2:42 (162)    Dark Arts ((-10%, known)
    2:38 (158)    Yama's (( .88 * 180 = 158 ))
    2:38 (158)    Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet, Manifestation+Alacrity (( same as above, because using Manifestation/Alacrity removes the bonus from dark arts and negates AF2 head / AF1 feet ))
    2:22 (142)    Dark Arts, Yama's (( .88 * .9 * 180 = 142 ))
    2:06 (126)    Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet  (( .88 * .9 * 180 = 126, -20% from Dark Arts when using AF2 head and AF1 feet ))
    1:12 (72)    Dark Arts, Yama's, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( .4*180 = 72, -60% from Dark Arts and AF3 feet + Voidstorm, breaks recast cap, didn't realize it broke the cap because all tests before were done with weakness. Apparently no Yama's bonus on this. ))
    1:12 (72)    Dark Arts, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( Same as above ))
    
    4:15 (255)    Seigan (( 255 is the recast cap, this would theoretically be 270. It's unknown how it handles overflow. ))
    4:15 (255)    Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, S.Feet, Manifestation+Alacrity (( No change, which is what we'd expect ))
    4:03 (243)    Seigan, Dark Arts (( 270 * .9 = 243))
    3:57 (237)    Seigan, Yama's (( 270*.88 = 237 ))
    3:36 (216)    Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, S.Feet (( 270 * .8 = 216. Perhaps we're away from the recast cap now somehow. ))
    3:33 (213)    Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's (( .88 * .9 * 1.5 = 213, good deal! ))
    3:10 (190)    Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, S.Feet (( 180*1.5*.8 * .88 = 190 ))
    1:48 (108)    Seigan, Dark Arts, A.Hat, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( A.Hat has no effect because Alacrity is up ))
    1:48 (108)    Seigan, Dark Arts, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( 270*.4 = 180 ))
    1:35 (95)    Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, A.Hat, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( A.Hat has no effect because Alacrity is up ))
    1:35 (95)    Seigan, Dark Arts, Yama's, Alacrity+A.Feet (Voidstorm) (( 270 * .88 * .4 = 95 ))
    With the last 4 sets of numbers (Seigan w/ Alacrity+A.Feet), is Yama's breaking some sort of cap? I mean, I did both tests with and without A.Hat, so if they both had the same kind of recast reduction, it should have shown up in all of the timers with the hat?

    I have all of these Frapsed so I can go back and double check the numbers.
    Okay, they're all consistent with a -12% bonus from Yama's that's applied separately from SCH and SAM JAs. It looks like hitting the recast cap has no real effect on the calculations, and it's possible to break the 50% of original recast limit using AF2 feet and weather.

    PS. Some of your conversions from minutes to seconds needed a little fixing, but then everything made sense.

  8. #28
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    I like this forum and the topics like this one, finally made me register.
    I've been doing a lot of testing on recast timers too for the last month or so, and found some interesting stuff I haven't seen mentioned anywhere.

    I have a macc Vayu's staff +2 with wind affinity: recast time -12%.
    The reason Cymmina only observed a -5% recast reduction from the Yama's +2 staff was because the "Recast time -12%" is added directly to Fast Cast!

    Eg: my RDM90/BLU45
    Fast Cast V trait (FC-30% = FC Cast time -30%, FC Recast time -15%)
    + Vayu's Staff +2 (Wind Affinity: Recast time -12%)
    (Wind spells) = FC Cast time -30%, FC Recast time -27%
    (Earth spells) = FC Cast time -30%, FC Recast time -3%

    The affinity stats on these staves, like the lv51 NQ/HQ elemental staves, have a penalty effect if you cast a spell that is of the element weak to the staff's element. This penalty also applies to the recast time stat, giving +12% instead?

    RDM90/BLU45 + Vayu's Staff +2
    Wind = -15-12 = -27% recast
    Earth = -15+12 = -3% recast

    Gravity [60s] (wind) = 43s (my FC recast reduction must be between 274/1024 and 290/1024, 27%~28%)

    Break [30s] (earth) = 29s (so definitely a penalty, and my FC recast can't be more than -3%, or -34/1024 at the most)

    Some more interesting ones...

    Chaotic Eye [10s] (wind) = 7s (-15% = 8s)
    Healing Breeze [15s] (wind) = 12s (-27% = 10s... -15% = 12s)
    Cocoon [60s] (earth) = 51s (-3% = 58s... -15% = 51s)

    Grand Slam [14.25s] (physical) = 12s (-3% = 13s.... -15% = 12s)

    BUT... If I unequip my staff and cast Haste and equip a pair of Dusk Gloves...
    FC recast: -15%, Haste: 180/1024 (150/1024 + 30/1024)
    Grand Slam [14.25s] (physical) = 9s (~9.98s)

    BUT... If I keep Haste and Dusk Gloves, and re-equip my Vayu's staff +2...
    FC recast: -3%, Haste: 180/1024
    Grand Slam [14.25s] (physical) = 10s !!
    If magic element affinity is even supposed to affect a physical spell like Grand Slam, and my -15+12=-3% idea was correct, it should be 11s (~11.38s) anyway...

    The main things I was testing for were to do with whether FC uses /1024 or /100, and if haste is truncated or rounded at all, and if so to how many decimal places, how the numbers might be stored in binary, and exact values for pieces of gear.
    I'm restricted quite a bit as I can't test useful higher level blm, blu and sch spells yet.
    The formula I currently use is this, without any additional flooring/truncating:
    Code:
    FLOOR((1-FLOOR(FastCast/2+AffinityRecast)/100))*(1-Haste/1024)*[Composure, SCH Arts, Stratagems]*Recast)
    I'm still trying to figure out some of the problems I already have with that formula, and I've found several spell-job-ability-gear combinations that challenge or would prove some parts of my findings, but I don't have the job levels to test them.

    Sorry for my messy long first post if anyone tried to read it all.

  9. #29
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    Just to make absolutely sure, you got all of these numbers from the menu and not the recast plugin, right? Recast plugin lags about a second off what it actually is.

  10. #30
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    Yeah, I don't really play using Windower, and I didn't use the /recast command or anything else, I only go by the menu timers.

  11. #31
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    Okay, so I'm getting:
    1) It is added to the recast reduction from Fast Cast
    2) It doesn't affect self-targetted BLU spells (but does affect Klimaform per Cymmina's tests)
    3) What element is Grand Slam?

    It kind of makes sense that you'd be getting weird results from BLU spells, as the only source of this kind of recast reduction is on a set of staves they can't equip.

  12. #32
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    Something interesting I found using POLUtils, is that some spells have different icons to what their element is.
    Chaotic Eye (wind icon) = Wind
    Healing Breeze (wind icon) = Physical
    Cocoon (earth icon) = Physical
    Grand Slam (physical icon) = Physical... I've always used Barstone to evade a gigas' Grand Slam anyway, so it's probably an earth based physical spell?

    To find interesting spells to test, I made a large OpenOffice spreadsheet with over 600 columns and over 1000 rows.

    Columns = every possible fast cast value: 0/1024, 1/1024, 2/1024, etc.
    Every .5% added where necessary, such as 4/1024, 5/1024, 5/100 (0.5%) 6/1024, etc. up to just over 512/1024 (50%)

    Rows = every base spell recast: 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1, 1.25, etc. up to 255.
    With spell names added, if I there is a spell with that recast, for each row.

    Also, I have additional options to add haste or truncation of varying amounts if I want to.
    For each result, if it were floored with no decimal places, if it's a lower number than the previous column, the spreadsheet automatically highlights it.

    This way, I can just scroll over to say where I expect RDM89's "Fast Cast V" trait to be, around 150/1024 ~ 15/100(15%) ~ 154/1024, and just look for the highlighted rows to show which spells prove/disprove a possible fast cast value.
    i.e. 15% (153.6/1024) vs. 154/1024
    Reraise [60s] is highlighted as changing to 50.98 with 154/1024 fast cast
    So, if I cast the spell naked on RDM90/whm ingame and I get 51s on the menu timer, I know it should 100% disprove 154/1024 and higher, and must be at the most 153.6/1024(15%) or 153/1024, or less.

    I don't know if you guys already found out for 100% certainty whether fast cast is /1024 or /100, but the spreadsheet works really well to find which spells to test.

  13. #33
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    I think that no examples have been raised where Fast Cast was known to take a non-integer % value.

    I think it works like:
    1) You have X % Fast Cast, stored as X
    2) For recast effect, X is right bitward shifted (divided by 2 and floored), and you have X % Recast from Fast Cast
    3) Multiplication of Fast Cast factors is just done floating point.

    I'm not sure why your Grand Slam works out the way it does, but I'd be unsurprised if the staves are a little glitchy when used on BLU. Also, BLUs have been making a stink about Fast Cast and Isador being nerfed, so maybe Fast Cast on BLU stuff is broken in general at the moment.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    I think that no examples have been raised where Fast Cast was known to take a non-integer % value.

    I think it works like:
    1) You have X % Fast Cast, stored as X
    2) For recast effect, X is right bitward shifted (divided by 2 and floored), and you have X % Recast from Fast Cast
    3) Multiplication of Fast Cast factors is just done floating point.

    I'm not sure why your Grand Slam works out the way it does, but I'd be unsurprised if the staves are a little glitchy when used on BLU. Also, BLUs have been making a stink about Fast Cast and Isador being nerfed, so maybe Fast Cast on BLU stuff is broken in general at the moment.
    When I tested Isador and the trait, I also checked values with Homam Cosciales, Fast Cast+5 Mirke, and /RDM. All 3 had their expected values (5%, 5%, 15%). Near as I can tell it's only the settable trait that's busted and I don't know why Isador is 5%, especially given that Prothescar is the one who initially said it was 10% and I trust his results.

  15. #35
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    Grand Slam is a physical spell (No Element in resources). I don't think any staff will affect the recast on physical spells.
    Code:
    		entry id="524" index="622" prefix="/magic" english="Grand Slam" german="Grand Slam" french="Grande claque" japanese="グランドスラム" type="BlueMagic" element="Unknown" targets="Enemy" skill="BlueMagic" mpcost="24" casttime="1" recast="14.25"

  16. #36
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    Well, yeah, but:
    14.25*85%*(1024-180)/1024 = 9.98

    So it's not entirely floating point, one of the Haste values is off a little bit, or something else happened.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    Grand Slam is a physical spell (No Element in resources). I don't think any staff will affect the recast on physical spells.
    Code:
    		entry id="524" index="622" prefix="/magic" english="Grand Slam" german="Grand Slam" french="Grande claque" japanese="グランドスラム" type="BlueMagic" element="Unknown" targets="Enemy" skill="BlueMagic" mpcost="24" casttime="1" recast="14.25"
    True, but my Vayu's staff +2 did affect Grand Slam recast as I said earlier.
    Both tests as RDM90/blu, "Haste" spell, and wearing nothing but Dusk Gloves. (FC recast:-15%, Haste: 180/1024)
    Without staff: 9s
    With staff: 10s
    I've tried it several times, it's always those recast.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Also, BLUs have been making a stink about Fast Cast and Isador being nerfed, so maybe Fast Cast on BLU stuff is broken in general at the moment.
    Eh, I think that guy just may be wrong. Looking through logs I had tested it as 5% on February 5th, well before the "May Update" he claims to have broken it.

    Only 'proof' I have is just me making claims in chat log, I didn't report it anywhere as OtherWiki tends to be wrong about anything slightly mathematical. <_<;

    Spoiler: show

    [23:43:07]Starstrukk starts casting Reraise on Starstrukk.
    [23:43:19]Starstrukk casts Reraise.
    [23:43:19]Starstrukk gains the effect of Reraise.
    [23:44:05](Starstrukk) I fuckin knew it.
    [23:44:14](Praleart) Wat.
    [23:44:18](Starstrukk) MY EYEBALLIN MATCHED UP
    [23:44:25](Praleart) :O?!
    [23:44:29]Starstrukk starts casting Reraise on Starstrukk.
    [23:44:32](Starstrukk) 1 mo test to confirm.
    [23:44:39](Starstrukk) YEP
    [23:44:41]Starstrukk casts Reraise.
    [23:44:41]Starstrukk gains the effect of Reraise.
    [23:44:46](Praleart) WAT.
    [23:44:52](Starstrukk) HerpDerp Wiki says sword is 10% cast reduction 5% recast
    [23:44:54](Starstrukk) its 5/2.5. . .
    [23:45:01](Praleart) Lol.
    [23:45:32](Starstrukk) I knew it felt fishy by eyeballin how long it took to cast utsu ichi
    [23:46:00](Praleart) XD.

  19. #39
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    When you guys do these tests, make sure to test the lag between cast time and log time (You start casting > Wearing off). I had that issue when testing RDM composure, which is why my initial column of results did not fit neatly.

    Edit: Also, I would use Radec's interruption method unless there's an issue with that I haven't heard of.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    When you guys do these tests, make sure to test the lag between cast time and log time (You start casting > Wearing off). I had that issue when testing RDM composure, which is why my initial column of results did not fit neatly.
    For testing spell duration the chat log lag is a problem, but for recast timers people won't be using the chat log, just the timers from the menus, so lag shouldn't be a problem.

    That Isador stuff is interesting, and might explain why the staff had a weird effect on some blue magic.
    So the sword likely always was 5% FC? Do you know if the same is true for the blue mage job trait?

    Edit: @Yugl - oops, I guess you were talking about cast times, the bit about composure confused me though as it only affects recast.