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  1. #221
    Chram
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Fenrir

    Testing the idea of -2/1024 haste

    Whm/sch, no arts

    Curaga IV with 7% recast: 10 seconds if -2/1024 haste, 9 seconds if 0 haste.
    Orvail + Swith + Prolix + Loq + Incantor = 14% FC == 7% recast
    Observed: 10 (matches -2 haste)

    Flash with 9% recast: 41 seconds if -2/1024 haste, 40 seconds if 0 haste.
    Orvail + Swith + Prolix + Loq + Incantor + Orison neck = 19% FC == 9% recast
    Observed: 41 (matches -2 haste)

    Klimaform with 14% recast: 155 seconds if -2/1024 haste, 154 seconds if 0 haste.
    Sch/rdm + Orvail + Swith + Prolix + Loq + Incantor = 29% FC == 14% recast
    Observed: 155 (matches -2 haste)


    So Proth's idea of -2/1024 haste seems sound, as it matches observed results on the three tests I worked out.

    Testing for an exact haste value:

    Klimaform with 3% recast: 175 seconds if -3/1024 haste, 174 seconds if -2/1024 haste.
    Orvail + Loq = 7% FC == 3% recast
    Observed: 174
    Must be greater than -3

    Klimaform with 4% recast: 173 seconds if -2/1024 haste, 172 seconds if -1/1024 haste.
    Orvail + Swith = 8% FC == 4% recast
    Observed: 173
    Must be less than -1


    So that would confirm -2 as the only valid value.

  2. #222
    Impossiblu
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    Mar 2010
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    Prothescar Centursa
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    Balmung
    FFXI Server
    Valefor

    Did some tests on Orvail +1 to see if they shared the -2/1024:

    Orvail pants +1 only, Klimaform: 2:54
    3:00, so 180 * 60 = 10800
    Fast Cast: 10800 * 0.98 = 10584
    8/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.9921875 = 10501 / 60 = 175
    9/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.9912109375 = 10490 / 60 = 174
    11/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.9892578125 = 10470 / 60 = 174

    Haste = at least 9/1024


    Orvail pants +1 (9~10/1024) + Zelus tiara (81/1024) + Haste spell (150/1024), Klimaform: 2:14
    3:00, so 180 * 60 = 10800
    Fast Cast: 10800 * 0.98 = 10584
    9/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.765625 = 8103 / 60 = 135
    10/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.7646484375 = 8093 / 60 = 134

    Haste = at least 10/1024, probability of -2/1024 Haste = unlikely


    Orvail pants +1 (10~12/1024) + Victory March (96/1024), Klimaform: 2:37
    3:00, so 180 * 60 = 10800
    Fast Cast: 10800 * 0.98 = 10584
    10/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.896484375 = 9492 / 60 = 158
    11/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.8955078125 = 9478 / 60 = 157
    12/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.89453125 = 9467 / 60 = 157

    Haste = at least 11/1024


    Orvail pants +1 (11~12/1024) + Victory March (96/1024), Haste spell (150/1024), Klimaform: 2:11
    3:00, so 180 * 60 = 10800
    Fast Cast: 10800 * 0.98 = 10584
    11/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.7490234375 = 7927 / 60 = 132
    12/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.748046875 = 7917 / 60 = 131

    Haste = at least 12/1024


    Orvail pants +1 (12~13/1024) + Victory March (112/1024), Klimaform: 2:35
    3:00, so 180 * 60 = 10800
    Fast Cast: 10800 * 0.98 = 10584
    12/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.87890625 = 9302 / 60 = 155
    13/1024 Haste: 10584 * 0.8779296875 = 9292 / 60 = 154



    Conclusion: Haste = 12/1024, there is no -2/1024 Haste.

  3. #223
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    582
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    5

    Grimoire: spellcasting time - "job ability" recast reduction cap?

    Dark Arts only: Timers returns 2:41 (161 s); printing recast in chat returns 162 s. Predicted recast is (1-.10)*180 = 162 s

    Dark Arts, Pedagogy Mortarboard: Timers returns 2:15 (135 s); printing recast in chat returns 136 s. Predicted recast is approximately (1-.20)*(1-50/1024)*180 = 136.9688 s (note: I'm not sure what the "exact" haste value is)

    Dark Arts, Academic's Loafers: Timers returns 2:22 (142 s); printing recast in chat returns 143 s. Predicted recast is (1-.18)*(1-28/1024)*180 = 143.5641 s

    Dark Arts, Academic's Loafers, Pedagogy Mortarboard: Timers returns 2:03 (123 s); printing recast in chat returns 124 s. Predicted recast is (1-.28)*(1-78/1024)*180 = 119.7281 s, about a 4-5 s difference.

    It looks like there is a cap on recast reduction from an active grimoire effect, which might be 25% (Alacrity not active). Predicted recast given 25% is (1-.25)*(1-78/1024)*180 = 124.71 seconds.

    Used the following lua script to print recast in chat log.
    Code:
    windower.register_event('action',function (act)
    if act['category'] == 4 and act['param'] == 287 then
    windower.add_to_chat(8,'Recast: '..tostring(act['recast']))
    end
    end)
    For reference, 287 is Klimaform, 252 is Stun

  4. #224
    Old Odin
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    6,198
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    Asura

    Quote Originally Posted by CDF View Post
    Dark Arts only: Timers returns 2:41 (161 s); printing recast in chat returns 162 s. Predicted recast is (1-.10)*180 = 162 s

    Dark Arts, Pedagogy Mortarboard: Timers returns 2:15 (135 s); printing recast in chat returns 136 s. Predicted recast is approximately (1-.20)*(1-50/1024)*180 = 136.9688 s (note: I'm not sure what the "exact" haste value is)

    Dark Arts, Academic's Loafers: Timers returns 2:22 (142 s); printing recast in chat returns 143 s. Predicted recast is (1-.18)*(1-28/1024)*180 = 143.5641 s

    Dark Arts, Academic's Loafers, Pedagogy Mortarboard: Timers returns 2:03 (123 s); printing recast in chat returns 124 s. Predicted recast is (1-.28)*(1-78/1024)*180 = 119.7281 s, about a 4-5 s difference.

    It looks like there is a cap on recast reduction from an active grimoire effect, which might be 25% (Alacrity not active). Predicted recast given 25% is (1-.25)*(1-78/1024)*180 = 124.71 seconds.

    Used the following lua script to print recast in chat log.
    Code:
    windower.register_event('action',function (act)
    if act['category'] == 4 and act['param'] == 287 then
    windower.add_to_chat(8,'Recast: '..tostring(act['recast']))
    end
    end)
    For reference, 287 is Klimaform, 252 is Stun
    what does this mean? should I now swap af 119 feet out for relic 119 feet for fast cast, or should I still rock the Relic 119 hat and af 119 feet combo? ¬.¬, I am no math person so I dont know if 3% haste and 5% fast cast is better then 3% haste and -8% cast/recast due to the cap. Also how does 11% head and 8% feet equal reaching 25% cap oO?

    EDIT: nvm dark arts 10% cast/recast reduction applies to it too... hmmmm. in other words the feet is -4% recast only worth with the head being -11 and dark arts. Thats still better then 5% fast cast.

  5. #225
    Sea Torques
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    582
    BG Level
    5

    Dark Arts (10%) + reforge AF2 (relic) head (10%) + reforge AF feet (8%) should give 28% casting time and 28% recast reduction but the observed Klimaform recast (124 s from menu recast) is higher than the predicted recast (119 s).

    Since the haste values are known and the "grimoire: spellcasting time" values are known (they are all in the help text), and the gear haste cap was not reached, there necessarily seems to be a cap on the total grimoire term (~25%). This could have been confirmed with the old AF2+2 head but I never owned it.

    In practice this apparent 25% cap means that when used together reforge AF2 head and reforge AF feet are not as good as they would be without the cap, but generally speaking they are still slightly more efficient at reducing recast than competing FC gear in the head and feet slots (like Nahtirah Hat and AF2 feet), mainly because SCH does not have access to a lot of fast cast usually (from subjob, Caster's roll, atma etc.)

    Rule of thumb: Grimoire spellcasting gear for correct Arts; Fast cast gear for wrong Arts. Fast cast gear for Alacrity casting (if you want to be this OCD)

  6. #226
    Old Odin
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Asura

    Quote Originally Posted by CDF View Post
    Dark Arts (10%) + reforge AF2 (relic) head (10%) + reforge AF feet (8%) should give 28% casting time and 28% recast reduction but the observed Klimaform recast (124 s from menu recast) is higher than the predicted recast (119 s).

    Since the haste values are known and the "grimoire: spellcasting time" values are known (they are all in the help text), and the gear haste cap was not reached, there necessarily seems to be a cap on the total grimoire term (~25%). This could have been confirmed with the old AF2+2 head but I never owned it.

    In practice this apparent 25% cap means that when used together reforge AF2 head and reforge AF feet are not as good as they would be without the cap, but generally speaking they are still slightly more efficient at reducing recast than competing FC gear in the head and feet slots (like Nahtirah Hat and AF2 feet), mainly because SCH does not have access to a lot of fast cast usually (from subjob, Caster's roll, atma etc.)

    Rule of thumb: Grimoire spellcasting gear for correct Arts; Fast cast gear for wrong Arts. Fast cast gear for Alacrity casting (if you want to be this OCD)
    yeah i got that, thx for clearing it up again, in other words anything that has more then 8% fastcast and 3% haste on the feet will beat the AF119 version for Spellcasting, since its only adding 4% of reduce spellcast combined with the Relic 119 head (in the right arts and without accession/alacr etc.). Thanks for finding out about the cap <3

  7. #227
    Relic Horn
    Join Date
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    ... and for actual casting speed AF1 119 feet + Nahtira head, right?

  8. #228
    Fake Numbers
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    2

    I'm new to SCH so decided to put a stun set together. My gear is as follows:

    Lehbrailg +2 (+4 Fast Cast)/Vivid Strap/Incantor's Stone
    Pedagogy Mortarboard +1/Jeweled Collar (+2 Fast Cast)/Gwati Earring/Loquacious Earring
    Vanir Cotehardie/Academic's Bracers/Sangoma Ring/Prolix Ring
    Swith Cape +1/Cetl Belt/Artsieq Hose R15/Academic's Loafers

    With this set I have +32 Fast Cast and 25% Haste. I am at 12 second stun recast without Alacrity and with Trust Haste/2x March. Would this be a fast/accurate enough set to solo stun with in Delve w/o strats? What would I need to lower my recast to 11 or 10 seconds?

  9. #229
    Old Odin
    Join Date
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    Asura

    Quote Originally Posted by Aumann View Post
    I'm new to SCH so decided to put a stun set together. My gear is as follows:

    Lehbrailg +2 (+4 Fast Cast)/Vivid Strap/Incantor's Stone
    Pedagogy Mortarboard +1/Jeweled Collar (+2 Fast Cast)/Gwati Earring/Loquacious Earring
    Vanir Cotehardie/Academic's Bracers/Sangoma Ring/Prolix Ring
    Swith Cape +1/Cetl Belt/Artsieq Hose R15/Academic's Loafers

    With this set I have +32 Fast Cast and 25% Haste. I am at 12 second stun recast without Alacrity and with Trust Haste/2x March. Would this be a fast/accurate enough set to solo stun with in Delve w/o strats? What would I need to lower my recast to 11 or 10 seconds?
    12 sec isnt cutting you need 9 sec, change cetl belt to witful belt, +1 your acad bracers/loafers, get orunmilas torque and get pedagogy feet +1 and nahtira hat when you are useing alacricity. Delve 1.0 bosses take 9-10 sec between their attacks until their next moves goes off, you will miss every 2. move with a 10-12 sec recast timer. tojil is more relaxed, the shark seems to have a fracture of a second lower reading, and the bee is sometimes even harder to catch with 9 sec recast (dont ask me how, but the bee sometimes leaves only a 8 sec window upon from the last ready move to the next)

    however havent stunned in a long time, since delve 2.0 is so much more easier and doesnt require any forms of stun, especially yorcia can just be done with melee burning.

  10. #230
    Fake Numbers
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Would getting +1 Af1 Hands and Feet help? The +1 Bracers and Loafers don't add any more haste, fast cast nor casting time reduction do they? Or do you mean for macc purposes? Also, I've tried switching to Witful belt and the recast is still 12

  11. #231
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aumann View Post
    Would getting +1 Af1 Hands and Feet help? The +1 Bracers and Loafers don't add any more haste, fast cast nor casting time reduction do they? Or do you mean for macc purposes? Also, I've tried switching to Witful belt and the recast is still 12
    also would advice to use arbuda grip. I havent done the tests on NQ and +1 pieces, but according to wiki they are the same for spell recast. also your testing might be flawed a bit, try stun recast with a brd sporting +4 marches (+3 from harp and +1 from empy+1) or with a gjallarhorn bard and haste. trusts marches dont have any form of potency, so you are missing a good junk of 10% haste or so to cap magical haste, just saw that now. go out with an LS brd sporting +4 marches at minimum and haste and go stun something, if your recast is 9 sec, grats you reached stun recat cap.