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Thread: Weapon Skills     submit to reddit submit to twitter submit to tumblr

  1. #101
    Hydra
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    I did go back and check the mobs again, they have 1 level difference, and def was actually around 503, with almost no variation in def. I am not sure why you were looking for exact values, as I had already stated that they weren't and you wouldn't get exact values. But with these numbers it looks to be around a 20% attack bonus, the max and min that we have should put it right around there.

  2. #102
    Chram
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    Can you list what you were using to get 719 attack?

  3. #103
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    Considering he's in Abyssea using STR Atma (74+173, so one of them is probably Stout Arm) I think 719 is pretty reasonable. As long as you don't kill too quickly, monsters in Abyssea default to being mostly one level and sometimes a second (one higher), which is probably what he meant by 503 and 508 defense.

  4. #104
    Hydra
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    That shouldn't have been +173, it was just 173 str. used bison steak food
    Mekira-oto, kirin's osode, Amemet +1, Pipilaka Belt, Avant Cuisses, Ferine Ocreae +1, Raja's ring, keen ring, Centaurus Earring, brutal earring, Ferine Manoplas +2, Chivalrous Chain.

    Then lvl 90 STR/attack magian axe. 64 dmg

  5. #105
    Chram
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    Ok, so you were using food. Berserk and other attack boosts don't include food in their base value. If you have 400 attack and eat a kabob or whatever, and then use Berserk, you'll only gain ~100 attack (slightly more from the +str, since str adds to base attack). As such, assuming the weaponskill attack boosts/penalties work the same way, the attack boost from your test has to be calculated against your attack without consideration for the food used.

    The max damage seen was 490, or at least 467 without the 1.05 multiplier, which means a pDif value of at least 2135/1024. You're above the threshhold for capped max pDif, so cRatio would be 2135 - 384 = 1751.

    You reached 1751 as an attack boost over the starting value of 1449, or +302. 302/1024 can be considered the fraction of the mob's defense that your attack increased by. ~508 * 302/1024 = ~+150 attack.

    However that 150 attack would be a percentage of your base attack, not your +food attack. Attack without the food boost (but leaving the str, since it contributes to base attack) would be 719 - 90 = 629. 150/629 = 23.85%.

    Given the low sample size, and thus the likelihood that you didn't reach the full max value, it seems probable that the attack boost for the weaponskill is actually +25%.

  6. #106
    Hydra
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    You are right, I thought that food added to base attack. Seems I didn't remember the results that I got when I tested back in the day. But that is just a change in the percentage as I already did the math to get the estimated attack or about ~145. or as you said it's somewhere around a 23% attack bonus with the values we have.

    We also don't even know if it's really a percentage attack bonus, it could be just a flat +150 attack bonus which the numbers would also not falsify. Given that we have the base damage and the high and low numbers I got on damage done we have a fairly small range of attack bonus.

    i just saw your pdif thread i'll have to take a look.

  7. #107
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    Sylph

    Any of you know a good way to test Apex Arrow's "defense ignored varies with TP" trait? I've been trying to compare its damage to Sidewinder and it seems without this value any mathematical analysis is pointless.

    (edit: ok, there is some mathematical analysis you can do. It's possible to see how much defense Apex Arrow needs to ignore for it to beat Sidewinder, by applying a % modifier to pdif fo Apex Arrow, setting the damage calculations for Apex Arrow and Sidewinder to equal each other, and solving for the % modifier to pdif. I can tell you that, with RNG99/NIN49, str 92+45 and agi 100+59 (basic abyssea-level gear), a vision bow and scorp arrows, Apex Arrow needs to ignore anywhere from 14.4% to 16.3% defense, depending on fSTR, to beat Sidewinder. With a 95 Yoichi, Gargouille arrows, RNG99/SAM49 + Hasso, str 92+7+51, and agi 97+71 (the best gear I could think of), Apex Arrow needs to ignore 22.3% to 23.4% defense to beat Sidewinder, depending on fSTR. And of course, if your natural pdif is high enough, no amount of defense ignored will help because your pdif will cap at 3.)

  8. #108
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    The biggest problem I see is controlling your range, which probably means you need a second person or more patience than me. Other than that, ranged WSs are pretty reliable. What I would recommend is:
    * Get a second person with you and go to Greater Colibri
    * Calculate your fSTR and what your WS damage would be with 3.0 pDIF from the sweet spot against a Greater Colibri.
    * See what RAtk you need in order to get that number with a 100TP Apex Arrow.
    * Note the level of the Lolibri you killed.

    For example, say you have 120AGI, 20 fSTR2 and are using a level 95 Yoichi with Kabura Arrows. Greater Colibri have 322 or 327 defense.
    (118 + 20 + 38 + floor(120*.85))*3 FTP*3 pDIF*1.07 True Shot (without AF3+2 pants)*1.25 piercing bonus = 3346 damage with capped pDIF

    As far as I know, the wiki equations are accurate and indicate that you would be unable to hit 3.0 ranged pDIF until you have 3.0 cRatio. This will let you home in on the exact defense ignored very quickly.
    If it ignores 0% defense at 100TP: ~981 RAtk to cap on the 327 defense Colibri
    If it ignores 10% defense at 100TP: ~883 RAtk to cap on the 327 defense Colibri
    If it ignores 25% defense at 100TP: ~735 RAtk to cap on the 327 defense Colibri
    If it ignores 33% defense at 100TP: ~654 RAtk to cap on the 327 defense Colibri
    If it ignores 50% defense at 100TP: ~490 RAtk to cap on the 327 defense Colibri

    You can repeat with 200 and 300TP as well. I think this would be a very interesting thing to know, but I don't want to level my ranger and merit the WS on the real servers and only have one account on the test server.

  9. #109
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    That makes sense, thanks! I'll give it a try when I manage to get my archery skill capped (i.e. don't hold your breath). I'll probably do a quick test at 100 TP and 300 TP vs. level 0 rabbits just to make sure all the equations are working as expected - and if the damage is actually different, then we know there's something we don't understand.

  10. #110
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    I got interested enough in this to give it a try on the Test Server, now that they have fixed it. Someone please check these ranged attack numbers, as I'm no ranger and this is just my guess for how they're calculated:
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 61 from 123 STR = 597 Ranged Attack without food
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 61 from 123 STR * 1.25 = 746 Ranged Attack with Berserk and no food
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 61 from 123 STR * (1 + (17+64)/256) = 786 Ranged Attack with Berserk and Warcry and no food
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 61 from 123 STR * 1.25 + 75 = 826 Ranged Attack with Berserk and Red Curry Bun
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 65 from 130 STR * 1.2 = 721 Ranged Attack with Hydra Kofte
    440 Ranged Skill + 78 in gear + 10 from /WAR trait + 8 base + 65 from 130 STR * 1.2 * 1.25= 871 Ranged Attack with Hydra Kofte and Berserk

    Level 0 neutral targets took 1548 damage from my Apex Arrow, which reflects the predicted 172 base damage with Loxley/fSTR/Ruszor Arrow. This would be 1687 damage from the sweet spot, or 2108 from the sweet spot with Piercing Bonus. 1935 is from outside the sweet spot.

    Data (all shots from 7.4'):
    101 TP, 90 xp monster: Berserk/Hydra Kofte (871 RAtk) = 2108 damage :: So it ignores at least 10% defense at 100TP. I also did one point-blank for 1935 damage.
    100 TP, 90 xp monster: Hydra Kofte (721 RAtk) = 1836 damage :: approximately 2.65 cRatio
    This indicates about 15% defense ignored at 100TP. (721/322/2.65) If this is the case, we would expect cRatio to cap at 819 RAtk.
    100 TP, 90 xp monster: Berserk/Warcry (786 RAtk?) = 1951 damage :: approximately 2.8 cRatio Again, ~13-15% defense ignored
    104 TP, 100 xp monster: Berserk/RCB (826 RAtk?) = 2108 damage :: The extra could have added something here, but it seems to ignore at least 16% defense at 104TP.
    300TP, 100 xp monster: Hydra Kofte (721 RAtk) = 2108 damage :: At least 25~30% defense ignored.


    At this point I ran out of medicine and died. I'd love it if someone could finish this, but I don't think it will be me!

  11. #111
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    After doing an Ig'Alima awhile back I was curious to why my Ascetic's Fury's were averaging much higher than my Shijin Spiral's. I realise Impetus helps further push Fury, but doing 1k Shijin, and 2500 damage Ascetic's seems a little too much to equate to just crit WS with Impetus up.

    First I went out and tested Ascetic's TP Bonus @ the 100/200/300 intervals in Abyssea using the 100% crit method. My results show +10% at 100TP, +20% at 200TP, and +40% at 300TP. Looks like Ascetic's has almost the same bonus as post nerf Smite.

    Secondly I thought back to when Ascetic's first became available and remembered that I used to think it had an attack multiplier of some sort, so went out to test for one.

    I started at Greater Colibri with a cRatio of about 1.33, all my data showed my attack was capped during Fury. Ascetic's has an attack multiplier of at least 1.5, need to drop attack and see if it is 1.5 or higher than 1.5.

    Dropped Lvl to 82, and cRatio to 1.14, data showed I was may still be capping ratio, so Fury has atleast an attack multiplier of 1.67. Used colibri to do both these tests because I thought it would be easiest since they can only spawn 2 levels. Can't really drop attack any lower on them than I currently had, so pretty much a big waste of time.

    Tested for a greater than 67% boost on EM Bluffalo in Abyssea. I really should of began with this in the first place, instead of wasting hours with the colibri. Set myself to a cRatio of exactly 1.0 and killed till they started spawning Lvl 99. Long story short, my results gave me a non-crit range between 335 and 514 with a weapon DMG of 57 including fStr, and a WSC of 151. WS base damage of 208 implies that 514dmg occurs at a pDiff of 2530/1024. Need a cRatio of 2 to get pDiff that high with h2h.

    Final Conclusion: Ascetic's Fury has a 2.0 attack multiplier, same as Gekko. This seems like the biggest reason Fury did so well on Ig'Alima.

  12. #112
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    cRatio of 2.0 is the cap for 1H weapon users. How do you know that the multiplier isn't greater than 2?

    Edit: Also, unless I am misreading this the JPs approximated it at 1.5 maybe? It is the third WS down, I think.

  13. #113
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    Quetzalcoatl

    To be honest the multiplier could be higher than 2.0, and I suppose I can go test a little further, just highly doubt it is. Looks like Gobli has it listed as 1.50~, so they have inconclusive testing that just states at least a 1.5 multiplier, but they never found the cap. Notice how none of the other WSs on that page have the ~(to or through) next to the number.

  14. #114
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    I would have never guessed that was Ascetics other than by elimination. I even looked up the word on Dictionary.com and the pronunciation doesn't even come close to the word they have listed in Katakana.

  15. #115
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    It was also the single undeciphered WS on that page when I went through before. However, daisetsu's tests got me thinking about it again and googling the japanese brought me to a page where they were talking (I think) about Ascetic's Fury's name.

  16. #116
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    I can't remember exactly, but it was given the Ascetic's Fury english name, and then the japanese got a phonetic version of it. It translates back into that strange name because of this. I don't know enough about the different forms of japanese to explain it better than that.

  17. #117
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    There is a simple explanation for the JP Name. In the JP Version the WS name actually is German. Similar to how Atonement is the German "Reue" = regret/remorse
    Code:
    ロイエ



    It uses the German word "Zorn" = Anger/Fury

    Code:
    ツォルン
    Askete(n)

    Code:
    アスケーテン

    >>> Asketenzorn Yes JPs love them German expressions.

  18. #118
    xXNyteFyreXx420Sharingan
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    Spoiler: show


    Used gorget, belt, and Atma of Echoes for this test (fTP+~0.7), D66 weapon. Brewed obviously. That's a WS where I got 2 TP return. With a fTP of 1.0 on each hit, the damage should have been closer to 4k and definitely no higher than 5k. fTP on Requiescat does appear to transfer to all hits.

    Have a bunch of other samples logged that also appear to fit fTP transferring, that just happened to be a particularly obvious case.

  19. #119
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    http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/109...=1#post5047327

    Can anyone re-test Stardiver to see if its FTP has had a ninja nerf? (or how do you test first hit ftp and I'll go do it?)

  20. #120
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    Use constant stats, no waist/neck, and go SA-WS Level 0 monsters with a high base damage polearm and constant TP 10 times.

    Then put on Gorget/Belt and repeat the test.

    Do not use Mekira-Oto.

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