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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    Social security accounts still draw interest, it's not just sitting there. Also, had we invested that money in the stock markets like people wanted to 10 years ago, we'd be in even worse conditions currently (especially if we did it with more than just the SS money, which we've already leant out to other programs).

    It's not really up for debate: Recent history has shown us that it would have been disasterous for us to have taken that path. It's like you're asking people to bet on black in roulette, after you just watched your best friend lose his life savings on black.

    There are very good ways to profit and use the stock market and invest in our economy, however specific aspects of our government need to be safeguarded and kept in the low yield, high security area of finance (similar to your personal finances, some is high risk, high yield, other is low risk, low yield).
    first, placing assets in an interest-based account is not considered growing money. oftentimes, your interest won't even cover inflation. second, investment isn't limited to the "stock market," it's called the financial market for a reason. no one is suggesting the government take social security money and throw it at cherry picked equity. a balanced portfolio at any net worth needs to be diversified across asset classes and risk valuations.

    in any case, depending on dividends to cover the scary state of social security at the moment makes no logical sense. if that's what you meant, then I completely agree.

  2. #62
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    @ The College degree links:

    I'd like to think that the increased education makes them more diverse in their jobs and helps their career progression, but perhaps they could have just bought a library card.

    As for investing:

    Even most of the diverse portfolios lost pretty big when the market crashed. Even if only 20% of your funds are in the hedge funds, you're not going to make up losing that money with the combination of other lower yield financial investments.

    I agree however that you do lose money via inflation, I just disagree with your assessment that we'd lose less if we invested it. I don't mind investing government money into programs that can stimulate the economy, or even into businesses, as long as that money isn't supposed to be set aside to cover medical/living costs of our nation.

    Basically, gamble with your extra money, keep your rent money and prescription money safe. Don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.

    But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Convince me.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    @ The College degree links:

    I'd like to think that the increased education makes them more diverse in their jobs and helps their career progression, but perhaps they could have just bought a library card.

    As for investing:

    Even most of the diverse portfolios lost pretty big when the market crashed. Even if only 20% of your funds are in the hedge funds, you're not going to make up losing that money with the combination of other lower yield financial investments.

    I agree however that you do lose money via inflation, I just disagree with your assessment that we'd lose less if we invested it. I don't mind investing government money into programs that can stimulate the economy, or even into businesses, as long as that money isn't supposed to be set aside to cover medical/living costs of our nation.

    Basically, gamble with your extra money, keep your rent money and prescription money safe. Don't gamble with what you can't afford to lose.

    But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Convince me.
    @college, it's less about diversifying your skill set, and more about making sure your skill set is marketable. i.e., chosing a growing field and making sure you're an attractive applicant there.

    I can't legally tell you more about my investment philosophy. however, what you're advocating here is primary low beta investing, so if you're unfamiliar with the term you should look it up and it might help you articulate your views a little better. there's a saying here on wall street (well, it was more popular in my mother's time and that says VOLUMES) that bulls make money and bears make money, but pigs get slaughtered. if you are a risk-averse person and fearful of market volatility, there are lots and lots of investment vehicles that can fit your needs, and the same goes for the government. there are solid growth investments that don't deserve the term "gambling," which is what they should be doing with the SSTF and other relevant accounts.

  4. #64
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    Can you give some examples of those low risk investments, ones that showed no loss during the market collapse and a higher interest rate than current SS accounts?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    Can you give some examples of those low risk investments, ones that showed no loss during the market collapse and a higher interest rate than current SS accounts?
    all anyone needed to do was purchase a put on their positions; the premium would have been extremely low because of the market's sentiment at the time. as for which investments I thought survived, again I can't legally disclose that but I can give you the coordinates of the information. start out by googling "asset class fluctuation 2008" and you'll find what you need swiftly.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    Social security accounts still draw interest, it's not just sitting there. Also, had we invested that money in the stock markets like people wanted to 10 years ago, we'd be in even worse conditions currently
    10 years ago (July 6th, 2001), the Dow Jones Industrial Average was at 10,262. Today it's at 12,613.

    Now granted, that's a shitty gain over 10 years, but don't pretend like the stock market has gone down since 10 years ago - and back in 2001 it was near all-time highs for the time, compared to now where we're entrenched in the worst recession since the great depression.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    Can you give some examples of those low risk investments, ones that showed no loss during the market collapse and a higher interest rate than current SS accounts?
    You're looking for only investments that will never lose value?

    That's a much higher burden than just "not gambling". The stock market has already regained most of it's value since the inflated peak it was at in 2006 before the crash, even with our economy still in the shitter.

    Sure if you sold everything the day Obama got elected you got hosed, but you have to take a longer-term approach to it...and considering we're talking about retirement income that you start paying into as a 12-year old paperboy and don't collect on for 50 years...that would be more appropriate.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarial View Post
    Social security accounts still draw interest, it's not just sitting there. Also, had we invested that money in the stock markets like people wanted to 10 years ago, we'd be in even worse conditions currently (especially if we did it with more than just the SS money, which we've already leant out to other programs).
    This is false. If you invested in a broad mutual accounts, even ten years ago, you'd have more money now than you did ten years ago. And if you look at it over the course of 40 years, you'd have millions more-- literally, millions-- than you're ever going to get out of SSI.

    It's not really up for debate: Recent history has shown us that it would have been disasterous for us to have taken that path.
    Recent history has shown that, even in a crisis, solid, patient investment nets a gain in anything other than depression-- and even then, patience wins out.

    It's like you're asking people to bet on black in roulette, after you just watched your best friend lose his life savings on black.
    No, it's like you're asking people to bet on the house instead of the gamblers. There's high risk investment, and there's moderate risk, and low risk. Most retirement portfolios will include some from all three, but the moderate-growth mutual funds have brought in 12-18% growth/year over the last 10 years. In the 90s, it was substantially higher. Avoid the trends, avoid single stocks, and you'll do well. Hell, that remained true even during the Great Depression (though the growth rate wasn't quite so high).

    Mutual Funds tend to result in low-risk/moderate reward, but I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been a single decade where they broke even, let alone lost value. There have been decades (such as the 70s and the 2000s), where their growth rate was slower than the previous decade, and there have been individual years with losses. But they are functionally about as safe as treasury bonds-- the only way mutual funds are really going to fail, is if the stock market ceases to exist. If things truly get that awful, then Social Security won't matter, anyway.

  9. #69
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    oh god.



    Social Security has been "going broke" and "in the red" every 10-15 years.

    It's a popular talking point.

  10. #70
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    While Washington obsesses over debt, a bleak report was just released on the economy:

    The Labor Department's June jobs report is ugly. Really ugly. In just about every meaningful category there was bad news about the workforce. Two years after the recession officially ended, the US labor market continues to struggle mightily.

    The headline jobless rate crept up to 9.2 percent. Overall the economy created 18,000 jobs (economists had predicted nearly ten times that number). The real unemployment rate jumped up to 16.2 percent, from 15.8 percent. Workers who left the workforce: 272,000. Hours worked and hourly earnings declined. The percentage of Americans participating in the labor force—64.1 percent—is the lowest it's been since 1983. Teen unemployment is a staggering 24.5 percent, and the jobless rate for blacks and Hispanics is 16.2 percent and 11.6 percent, respectively.
    In a brief statement this morning, House Speaker John Boehner pointed to June's dismal jobs report as proof that reducing the federal deficit with tax increases will only make things worse for the US economy. "The stimulus spending dinge, execessive government regulations, and our overwhelming debt continue to hold back job creators around our country," Boehner said. "Tax hikes on families and job creators would only make things worse."
    http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/...-obama-economy

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.toc.htm

    What Boehner doesn't get is that cutting government spending when there is no full employment also decreases economic activity. And what he also doesn't get is that the debt is not the reason why there is unemployment right now, but these are all points most democrats seem to have ceased to insist upon and instead have joined in on some fantasy that reducing the debt during such high unemployment will somehow not lead to disaster.

    Someone help!

  11. #71
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    A tweet by CNN Reporter: BREAKING - GOP gave in on Bush tax cuts?: WH source tells CNN that Boehner agreed to let Bush tax cuts expire as part of tax reform.

    Oh my... Imagine what Dems have had to give up to get the terrorist to comply.. Although I can't find any other sources confirming this information...

  12. #72
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    Let them expire? As in, not repeal them now, but letting them expire on 2012 in an election year where they can say the democrats are trying to raise taxes again?

  13. #73
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    That is the case it seems. lol

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    Let them expire? As in, not repeal them now, but letting them expire on 2012 in an election year where they can say the democrats are trying to raise taxes again?
    The quality & effectiveness of the final budget agreement will probably determine how effective that false argument will be. Do enough to raise revenue & cut deficit spending and you silence the Teadiots who only give a shit about spending (if there really were any).

  15. #75
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    Cant satisfy teabaggers. Obama could come up with a proposal that cuts 450 billion dollars from the budget per year and it would still not be enough.

    Also when you ask them what they would cut, they never have a single suggestion. Instead they default to the answer of "Everything." They also don't understand how tax cuts are essentially spending but advocate for the cuts because they are just puppets on a string for corporations. If ever there was a dumb but incredibly loud minority - the Tea Party would be it.

  16. #76
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    Question: are they letting all the bush tax cuts expire, or just the ones on the wealthy?

  17. #77

    this whole maddening stance by the GOP is why I went the international relations route. to say this whole "no tax raises, no defense cuts!" stance is totally insane & detached from reality would be the understatement of the century.

    and I wish some sort talk of cuts to the ridiculous amount of money we spend on people in jail was on the table. nice to see more people are talking about it (mainly in a indirect sort of way by slamming the war on drugs), but the dialogue could definitely pick up the pace. i dont think anyone makes the claim that the system is anything short of broken, yet there is little talk of fixing it.

  18. #78
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    You sound pretty soft on crime to me.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    You sound pretty soft on crime to me.
    http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...3gd9NWY56L3QZd

    This is all for their benefit.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zealot View Post
    Also, we have to cut services for the poor or we can't protect the super-wealthy.
    do you have any idea how much we already pay? get out of here with that shit. fucking socialists man

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