Canton PD "Notification" Arrest & Officer Goes Berserk / Threatens

[Plow]

A gun is not a tool for intimidation, period. The concept of pulling out a gun to make a thief (in this discussion specifically one with a knife...) "give up" is not acceptable unless someone is in immediate danger.

There's a reason that if a cop even pulls out his gun he's spending the next 2 weeks filling out paperwork.

[hey]

A gun is not a tool for intimidation, period. The concept of pulling out a gun to make a thief (in this discussion specifically one with a knife...) "give up" is not acceptable unless someone is in immediate danger.

And if someone is?

[Plow]

That's kind of the idea, you know, you pull it out when you actually need to be ready to shoot.

[hey]

Not sure how you pull a gun out if you don't have one with you, but ok.

[Nephlite]

I think in jmc's case, plow, the guy had a knife out robbing a store and jmc pulled his gun out and threatened it's use because of the threat of the knife. Any weapon really can constitute that type of response from an officer. The mere threat of a use of a firearm in pretty much any department nationwide is considered as a "Use of Force" option and usually requires you document the use on a use of force reporting form. Granted it's a much lower use of force than actually using it but it's still a requirement you document that use.

I hate that I have to spell this stuff out on such a liberal dominated forum, especially one that talks about sociology so damn much.

Firstly, @ Neph: It's a little different for a cop to want to be armed, however there's still a lot of room for debate there on how much responsibility you should both naturally have and choose to have outside of work.

Secondly:

Always? You go to a friend's child's birthday party, and you carry a loaded gun? You walk to the corner store to pick up some milk with 5 bucks on you and you need a gun?

If you make the statement that you always carry a gun anywhere it's legal you're one of 2 things:

1. An extremely irresponsible gun owner, and one that's also likely quite disrespectful of other people. (bring a gun to my kid's birthday party and you're no longer welcome around my family, let alone if you don't tell me and I find out on my own...)

As such, the likelihood of you pulling it when you shouldn't is very high.

2. Talking stupid shit to look hard, which means you don't always have it, but you certainly have the attitude that leads to waving it around and getting people shot when you do.

At your first statement, I agree 100%. Work should be work and home should be home. There isn't much of a distinction between the two though when your life runs between the two. I try my very hardest to keep life away from work but there's always that off chance that work will follow me home. For me personally, if I had to choose between carrying and not carrying, i'd rather not drink or go to the bar period so I can carry. The first shootout I was ever involved in was when I saw a guy I locked up standing on the same street I live on. He saw me in my personal vehicle and began to shoot at me. I returned fire with my concealed weapon I carry on me and was able to get him subdued and had him handcuffed ready for transport when my backup arrived. Remember this motto and hopefully it will change some of your views: It's better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it. I probably wouldn't be here today had I not been carrying and the choice is a simple one for me.

I'm sure there's an occasional person out there who shares your views on gun control and I try to respect these people's wishes as much as possible. My wife doesn't like me to carry inside our house so the first thing I do is put it in the safe once I get home. My adopted parents don't like me to carry in their home so when I go to visit them, I leave it in my car safe. I don't always ask people weather or not they want me to carry my gun in their place but I assume that everyone I talk to on a personal level knows i'm a cop and that I carry a gun and I would hope that if they had a problem with it, they would tell me. It's not my responsibility to tell everyone I talk to that I have a gun. Not only is that an officer safety issue, it's just simply none of anyone else's business. Again, the likelihood of pulling out at a kids party is very very slim, but you never know what'll happen so it's always gonna be there regardless just incase.

It's like other people said, we don't just pull it out every chance we get and it's never going to be used in a capacity to intimidate when we don't need it. All it takes is for one person who doesn't know you to report you to an official that you pulled a gun out for a fistfight and you're fired. No questions asked, no investigation, simply fired. That's a prime reason why when we were taught concealed when I started working undercover, not only do you carry a firearm but you carry a backup, an intermediate weapon (Taser, ASP, pepper spray), and handcuffs. That way when you get in to a minor altercation, you have a weapon that can preform the job without it being a lethal option. The little under garment retention holsters I carry can conceal all of that without sacrificing drawing power or concealment; you'd never even know I was carrying all that shit.

A gun is not a tool for intimidation, period. The concept of pulling out a gun to make a thief (in this discussion specifically one with a knife...) "give up" is not acceptable unless someone is in immediate danger.

There's a reason that if a cop even pulls out his gun he's spending the next 2 weeks filling out paperwork.

There's no other way of putting it to you more simply than this: you're wrong. Firearms have been used for intimidation for years by cops and it will never change. Why should I have to wait for you to point the barrel of a gun or hold a knife to someone's neck before I have mine pointed at you ready to fire before you get to that point? Will never happen. You have to fill out one little form and if that form takes 2 or 3 weeks (ours takes about 2 hours max), then damned be the devil because I will fill out paperwork till I die and go to meet him.

That old cliche' "don't pull out your gun unless you're prepared to use it." is more akin to what gangsters used to tell people when they pointed a gun at themselves. It's an intimidation line used by people and it's old. It's not a standard. It's just words. When I pull out my gun my favorite line is "Drop the weapon or I will kill you motherfucker". Does that mean I have to use it or kill that person? No. It's just a phrase used to gain compliance through words instead of simply shooting the person and for people to say that intimidation is wrong have 1. never had a gun pointed at them or 2. don't know shit about what it's like to feel like you're going to die. Period.

[Denchi]

Do you think you get desensitized to that sort of thing? I mean....it kinda reminds me of fight club "After fighting, everything else in your life got the volume turned down." When your job is to be putting your life on the line, do you sometimes forget that the same level of conduct you might be used to is scary/detrimental to the general populace?

honest question. I'd ask an army vet the same thing. I just wonder if it makes it hard to relate to the soccer moms and wussy hedge fund managers.

[Nephlite]

Do you think you get desensitized to that sort of thing? I mean....it kinda reminds me of fight club "After fighting, everything else in your life got the volume turned down." When your job is to be putting your life on the line, do you sometimes forget that the same level of conduct you might be used to is scary/detrimental to the general populace?

honest question. I'd ask an army vet the same thing. I just wonder if it makes it hard to relate to the soccer moms and wussy hedge fund managers.

I would say yes to most but not everything. It usually takes a few days to recover mentally when I have a gun pointed at me or get in to a really serious fight. Lot's of things go through your mind in a split second and the combat stress you get from it can really mess you up. It depends on how you deal with it. I know a lot of guys just break open a few beers and sit back and watch TV but I tend to spend time with my family for a few days and that will remind me of what's important and clear my mind.

If you meant weather or not i'm desensitized to killing people then yes but that's not because of police work. That stems from the time I spent over in Afghanistan and Iraq during the 4 tours I served in the Army. My training and the fighting I did there desensitized me to a lot of stuff (dead bodies, body parts, blood, guts, etc.) and really hardened me to police work. It was a fairly easy transition for me (thank god I never had to deal with PTSD or anything) and a lot of it stems from a background that really wasn't a very easy or very child-like when I was in childhood. I grew up in the slums of D.C. in what most people refer to as the "ghetto" and saw my first dead body when I was 5 and saw my first shootout when I was 10. Life itself has desensitized me to the more gruesome aspects of it and there's people out there that have seen worse or have experienced worse. I was one of the few lucky ones that grew up with a good idea of what I wanted to do. I wanted to help people and clean up the streets so no one has to go through what I went through.

The choices we all make in life are what's going to determine what kind of people we'll be. Some of those choices you can't control, nor can you predict where they will take you. I know for me the choices I made kept me safe, kept me from submitting to a life of crime and poverty and I prevailed. There are those who are less fortunate and can't do what I did and can't prevail. That's what I do. I help people make choices. I lend them a hand to help them turn their lives around. Does it work? Who knows? One things for sure: at the end of the day, I go home safe and get to see my wife and kids. That's all I can ask for. /end ramble. Hope that answered your question.

[Tyche]

Needed to balance out the thread.

[jmc]

Awesome video

[jmc]

JmC and Neph, you guys know if there's a training program for gun owners that teaches them techniques for the proper detention of an intruder or something like that offered by states or cities? I'm just curious as to how effective a course like that would be as an educational tool if it's even offered to the public. I know private security firms give their guards training like that don't they?

Sorry I missed this question. I honestly have no idea.... in Boston we have what is called "Special Police Officers" they go through a 2-3 month course on proper detention of individuals just like your requesting. The only problem is these courses are usually for individuals looking to become private police officers (usually at hospitals in our area) and not intended for just the general public.

[Plow]

That video reminds me of the courthouse scene in Law Abiding Citizen.

[Blubbartron]

Show of hands, who thinks that video would have gone the same way if the police officer hadn't realized he was being recorded?

[jmc]

Show of hands, who thinks that video would have gone the same way if the police officer hadn't realized he was being recorded?

*raises hand*

Simply because it was a marine talking to another marine.

[Nephlite]

JmC and Neph, you guys know if there's a training program for gun owners that teaches them techniques for the proper detention of an intruder or something like that offered by states or cities? I'm just curious as to how effective a course like that would be as an educational tool if it's even offered to the public. I know private security firms give their guards training like that don't they?

Don't think there's anything like that offered here in D.C. but I do know that a part of concealed carry in Virginia touches on the basis for a citizens arrest and whatnot. There is no concealed carry in D.C. We have the same thing in D.C. as Jmc described with the Special Police that encompasses University Police and private security. All local Special Police go through a 10 week academy specifically geared towards Campus Police/Special Police that teaches them about the law and detention. Usually, if a SPO gets an arrest, they have the DC police transport the suspect to a detention center where the SPO processes the arrest like a normal police officer. SPO or Campus police have the same arrest powers as an MPD officer and are commissioned through the government just like a police officer. Same applies to security guards but they don't have formal powers of arrest. They just detain till we come by and arrest them. I don't think it's something that's offered to a normal citizen though but the laws and procedures can be obtained easily by request and to go through the training costs about $500.00.

Show of hands, who thinks that video would have gone the same way if the police officer hadn't realized he was being recorded?

*raises hand*

Simply because of redneck.

[Rhinox]

ITT:
Cop


Plow being plow. This thread is similar to this one Plow being Plow

And Melena aka Nigger man getting butthurt because as the IT guy for a sherrifs department he feels he's "one of the guys"

Melena AKA Nigger man


Please,please someone quote this as nigger man blocked me.