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  1. #61
    If you stopped to actually learn something you might not post these uninformed posts.
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    The USA spends far more on health than any other OECD country when measured as a share of GDP. In 2007 their share was 15.7 per cent, with France second at 11 per cent. Norway was at the OECD average, with 8.9 per cent, while Mexico had the lowest share, with 5.9 per cent.

  2. #62
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Ron Swanson is disappointed in this thread.

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  3. #63

    Only thing I agree with in the laundry list of horrible libertarianism principles, is the 'stop protecting people from their own stupid' one. Though, that's not necessarily unique to libertarianism anyway.

    But whether it's drugs, prostitution, wearing a helmet, buckling a seat belt, buying a car without airbags, or whatever... And there's PLENTY more that are just absolutely ridiculous as well, and I'm sure many more to come.

    We don't need rules, regulations, or laws that force people into someone else's idea of how to live safely. The only time this should ever be an issue is if you're endangering the lives/property of others. That's it.

    Instead, we'd be far better served putting those resources towards educating people whatever potential risks in doing X. From there on though, it's their own decision.

    If that means 5 more people die a year, then yes it's incredibly tragic, but it's their own damned fault and not the fault of our government for 'not protecting people from themselves.'

  4. #64
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    best thread of all times, right here

  5. #65
    I'll change yer fuckin rate you derivative piece of shit
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKenshin View Post
    Only thing I agree with in the laundry list of horrible libertarianism principles, is the 'stop protecting people from their own stupid' one. Though, that's not necessarily unique to libertarianism anyway.

    But whether it's drugs, prostitution, wearing a helmet, buckling a seat belt, buying a car without airbags, or whatever... And there's PLENTY more that are just absolutely ridiculous as well, and I'm sure many more to come.

    We don't need rules, regulations, or laws that force people into someone else's idea of how to live safely. The only time this should ever be an issue is if you're endangering the lives/property of others. That's it.
    Unless you couple that with "emergency rooms/hospitals can refuse service to those who can't pay" - seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws do protect the property of others. When someone vegetables himself on a motorcycle requiring millions in medical care (well beyond his insurance limits), that cost is passed on to everyone else. Especially with the increased socialization of medical expenses, protecting the property of others is exactly what those guidelines do.

    I agree with you about drugs/prostitution though.

  6. #66

    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    Unless you couple that with "emergency rooms/hospitals can refuse service to those who can't pay" - seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws do protect the property of others. When someone vegetables himself on a motorcycle requiring millions in medical care (well beyond his insurance limits), that cost is passed on to everyone else. Especially with the increased socialization of medical expenses, protecting the property of others is exactly what those guidelines do.

    I agree with you about drugs/prostitution though.
    That argument is kind of flawed.

    Why not do the same to people who destroy their body with drugs? Or smoking? Or the morbidly obese? Or sunbath too much? Or eat too much fast food? etc. If we're going on the logic of who puts the most strain on the system through controllable factors, they're all far ahead of motorcycle injuries. So if you're defending laws that protect our safety on the grounds it protects tax payer money, in situations where a person has reasonable control over his own safety, where's the line here? Why is forcing someone not to purposefully inhale cancerous smoke any different from forcing someone to wear safety equipment?

    I still defend that it's best to just keep the government completely uninvolved from this process. It's easy to pick on something like helmet laws, but there are far more ridiculous laws being passed out there (I don't have time to search) on this premise that are getting out of hand.

    And yeah, I'd probably rather see a more regulated medical care industry than a more freedom-restricted country. Maybe.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that in like 99% of the cases where a seat belt/helmet is not used in an accident... they're just flat out dead. I'd even wager that seat belts/helmets increase the chances of the person living so much to the point that we actually strain the system more with treating all the people that would have otherwise flat-out died vs the rare few that live and end up as vegetables. Not that I'm arguing for that, but I just think it's a faulty point.

  7. #67
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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  8. #68
    I'll change yer fuckin rate you derivative piece of shit
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKenshin View Post
    That argument is kind of flawed.
    You're saying my argument is flawed, and then you immediately slippery slope it?

    It's not an argument, I'm telling you that the burden of costs accumulated by others is a primary reason for motorcycle helmet laws.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    You're saying my argument is flawed, and then you immediately slippery slope it?

    It's not an argument, I'm telling you that the burden of costs accumulated by others is a primary reason for motorcycle helmet laws.
    eh, we all directly sacrifice human life on a daily basis in order to keep things running smoothly, and often it's by government decree. people are happy to sacrifice lives for their own convenience as long as they don't have to look at it. there's a sick humor in people like test123 because of this.

  10. #70
    I'm not safe on my island
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    Test, can you explain more on inflation and food prices? It doesn't make sense to me. Of course there is more money than goods, because what matters is price & wages. Inflation means little by itself without taking into account wages, and stagnating wages need explanation.

    By fractional reserve banking, you mean QE?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek View Post
    Are you an idiot? I bet you he has an easier time getting an education, getting medical treatment, and having a decent standard of living than you do. Who's really more free? What does freedom really mean to you? If it's your freedom to amass as much money as you like, then fine. But don't pretend that your version of freedom is the only one. Some people value the freedom to get an education, to be free to healthy so they can have a quality of life for them and their family, and to be free not to slave for a corporate master who flies around in private jets and eat lobster while they work 60 hours a week to avoid sleeping in the street. Fuck your version of freedom. Just sayin'.

    Well thought out and reasoned OP Kuya. If only we all took the time to really examine our beliefs.
    Hyan was joking.

  12. #72

    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    You're saying my argument is flawed, and then you immediately slippery slope it?

    It's not an argument, I'm telling you that the burden of costs accumulated by others is a primary reason for motorcycle helmet laws.
    This is law we're talking about. Lines have to be made clear. If three different people can interpret a law three different ways, there's a problem.

    And I've never seen that point as an argument for motorcycle helmet laws until now.

    And if that's the only reason, my last point in my post still stands. I'd wager we spend far more money on the people that survive motorcycle accidents because of wearing a helmet (but sustain other injuries), than the rare people that survive motorcycle accidents without a helmet (as most either don't sustain much for injuries or just die).

  13. #73
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    It sounds like you're arguing social darwinism.

  14. #74
    I'll change yer fuckin rate you derivative piece of shit
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    If you've got stats to back up that motorcycle accidents by helmetless riders cost the public less than helmet-wearing riders, feel free to present it.

  15. #75
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by test123 View Post
    The USA spends far more on health than any other OECD country when measured as a share of GDP. In 2007 their share was 15.7 per cent, with France second at 11 per cent. Norway was at the OECD average, with 8.9 per cent, while Mexico had the lowest share, with 5.9 per cent.
    The flaw with those numbers is that in the US, it is private people spending the money. Hence why their spending is higher as healthcare is more expensive. In Sweden, it free, so the government pays it for us. Naturally that gives us a lower %of GDP spending.

    Previously, all hospitals were government owned. So the only thing they hand to spend money on when it comes to health care was salary and supplies. As such, the hospitals didn't require outrageous prices for procedures in order to run a profit, as the goal was to save lives - not earn a profit. Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland all have free health care, so naturally we won't rank at the top of the list.

    That list in no way represent the quality of health care - just how much money is spent on health care. France, for example, has government funded healthcare and is classed as the best in the world. Perhaps because it's a government funded healthcare system that has a lot of money put in to it. As a matter of fact; US is ranked #37 by WHO - despite spending the most money on it.

    So no, your list has nothing to do with quality.

    Edit: Here's a quote from an article on WHO's website:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/
    In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55. Cuba is the highest among Latin American and Caribbean nations at 23-25.

  17. #77

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuya View Post
    It sounds like you're arguing social darwinism.
    Not quite the point I'm aiming for.

    Though, you say that as if we haven't lived under 'social darwinism' for all of our existence on earth up until maybe 50 or so years ago?

    But utter social darwinism would be one side of the extremes, and everyone living in a bubble with no personal freedom or ability to make their own decisions is the other side of the extreme. To clarify I'm not for either extreme, but am especially against the bubble.

    And, I do feel we're continually moving in the direction of the bubble and I'd rather be further away from that than we currently are.

    Every time I see people attempt to pass a law to force McDonald's to sell healthier food, or ban student athletes from participating in sports in hot whether, or ban other silly stuff (http://www.inquisitr.com/133695/paga...fety-concerns/ because of no child-safety airbags on a $1m dollar, 5-sold-per-year, car?), I cringe. And it's only getting worse and more common. A huge symptom of this problem lately is a lack of parent accountability, which again I don't support our laws being built around catering to bad parents, or idiots.
    Quote Originally Posted by archibaldcrane View Post
    If you've got stats to back up that motorcycle accidents by helmetless riders cost the public less than helmet-wearing riders, feel free to present it.
    I said straight away I was waging on it, and thereby wasn't trying to state as fact.

    Needless to say a reliable study on that probably doesn't exist, but I'm pretty sure there's no factual study on the money we save through wearing helmets either.

    Either way, 'preventing medical costs on the population' aren't the sole (if even a factual?) reason for motorcycle helmet laws.

  18. #78
    blax n gunz
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    So libertarians are the ones who want to privatize every single public service, including our penal system, right?

    inb4 'well the problem there was not enough privatization.'

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Correction View Post
    So libertarians are the ones who want to privatize every single public service, including our penal system, right?

    inb4 'well the problem there was not enough privatization.'
    Because the Government running Correctional facilities is always better?

  20. #80
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    There's something about for profit prisons that really upsets me.

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