The Official Forums III: It goes on forever, now.

[Karbuncle]

I think i caught Starcade syndrome.

I hate people who bot/use clipper/etc. Like, Vehemently. I won't refuse to associate with them or make angry blog posts or freak out at them... But i hate it, and i hate that today in FFXI probably 80% of the population uses Claim Bots and Clipper.

I Don't mind the stuff like windower, but i also find myself disturbed i almost agree with starcades first couple paragraphs (not the psychotic Illuminati conspiracy bullshit), if you don't use windower, you can be ridiculed... and not using Clipper/Claim bots puts you at a significant disadvantage.

Few days ago, I saw people wiped to Fafnir, and when i got done laughing so hard i almost peed, I noticed a few people entered Dragon's aery from the back door and Clipper'd up the ledge to take the Fafnir (they preceded to mass wipe to it as well for a good 5 minutes until the rest of their LS managed to flee-hack to them). All in all a funny event, But it did make me realize that nobody seems to give a damn about these things, because such blatant third party tool usage and... Nothing is done about it.

Its not that i'm on the starcade level yet, But i can almost see why he's gone crazy about FFXI. I myself feel like everyone around me is using Clipper/Fleetools or Claim bots, and it gets me upset.

I'm not starcade-level though... yet, But i at least mildly understand why he's so angry all the time. I can still "live and let live" in FFXI, Its just difficult to swallow.

[kamugi]

Clipper just makes the game work how it should honestly. GM flag so not bumping into shit, no stupid cliffs, and lets you not walk at a snails pace. Even SE noticed all of things are effing stupid and removed them from FF14, lets hope they eventually do it for 11 too.

And do claim bots really still exist? I use to have some but they no longer work (kaces and arenz)

[Karbuncle]

Clipper just makes the game work how it should honestly. GM flag so not bumping into shit, no stupid cliffs, and lets you not walk at a snails pace. Even SE noticed all of things are effing stupid and removed them from FF14, lets hope they eventually do it for 11 too.

And do claim bots really still exist? I use to have some but they no longer work (kaces and arenz)

I know its all stupid shit(Ledges, etc), Doesn't mean the advantages of Using it are clear and those who don't are significantly hindered in comparison. as far as claim bots? Maybe not. It could be paranoia, I know one guy used to cast invisible (duh, Guku) and use Clipper to flee to it when it popped.

Btw, I loved in FFXIV where you could run up those ledges. Like, You have no idea how happy i was.

GM Flag i don't care about at all lol.

Plus, As I said, I can get over it... But i hate feeling like i'm the only person who doesn't use a 3PT >___> (For the record, I don't even use Windower lol, I don't care if others do though)

[Yugl]

I brought up the issue of implementing fixes for the stuff clipper fixes (JA0wait specifically) and people rejected it because clipper exists. The sad part is that it took one person to make clipper, so I can't imagine the task being difficult at all.

[arus2001]

Some things certainly enter the gray area of "should be in the game, but aren't because of PS2 limitations or devs being lazy" like extended macros, seeing party TP, mob distance, etc., but other things aren't so much like perma-flee, pos-hacking, or bot claiming for the rare instances these days that encourage it. Simply not having extended macros on the test server hampered my willingness to try things, as the current system is very much archaic and lacking. Even if I did take the time to try and recreate more important macro sets, the performance drop would be pretty big and dare I say create a false environment relative to the live servers.

Perhaps it's all an indirect way of saying SE's done a terrible job over the years of giving the customers what they want, within reason, and the inevitable result is the players making it for themselves. Financially speaking, if the players did all of that "for free" and the ancillary, unsavory functions can be worked around in future content, they may simply see the need to not bother and look the other way. It's unfortunate for console users to be missing out, and I don't really subscribe to the mindset that anyone and everyone can just throw down a chunk of cash on a new "system" to play a game they can already play, but in comparison, I doubt anyone has the internet solely for their PS2 or 360, and playing FFXI passably on an old system isn't too hard.

Of course, that discontent covers only the interface. Actual game content is another matter, and is a consistent series of its own major fuck ups. I really hate 2011 compared to 2010, and it's not because of the official boards. The Abyssea dude jumping to XIV left us with something lacking, and while I can't solely say it's Tanaka, the bad aspects of the old days creeping back is unsettling.

[Cymmina]

To be fair I'm hoping the lvl 99 staffs to even out, everyone has always complained abuot carrying 8 staffs, if you play blm and smn now you have to carry 16. (not to mention build 16)

Eh, not exactly.

BLU: 8 HQ (no Empyrean love)

SMN: Fey augmented staff or Bahamut's (currently enough -perp gear to cap out on everything but elementals, factoring in -3 perp on main), the pet MAB Shareeravadi and maybe the pet attack one are worth doing though.

Damage route: toss up here on exactly which damage staves you should have (thunder/ice/fire/wind are good "minimum" choices), but I wouldn't waste my time on a damage Surya's (light) for Luminohelix and holy. Keep the HQs as fallbacks for whatever you don't make

M.Acc route: not sure that anything here is particularly worth making unless you want it for the recast reduction (wind for Gravity, earth for Break, ice for Bind, dark for Sleep and maybe Drain/Aspir), matters more if you're pairing it up with Manifestation. Again, want the HQs here for whatever elements you don't do trials for.

Still want Surya's for cure potency and you'll probably want a hMP staff since it generally has the most hMP for a single slot (there's that one with +14 hMP that was added with VW episode 1). I think I miss the good old "we had to lug around 8 staves" days.

[Neisan]

Dark damage is better for drain/aspir, for Gravity in my experience it's only heavily resisted/immunity built on NMs, on anything else you can land it practically naked, Break I also only see resists versus NMs, that leaves Bind which is.... also resisted by most Nms. I'm making light damage for the -cast reduction mostly and it's less kills than macc (no, I don't care about Repose on Whm, it also falls under the rarely resisted category unless you're using it on poroggos or something).

Do Sleep spells even land on any NMs anymore?

[Churchill]

I think i caught Starcade syndrome.

I hate people who bot/use clipper/etc. Like, Vehemently. I won't refuse to associate with them or make angry blog posts or freak out at them... But i hate it, and i hate that today in FFXI probably 80% of the population uses Claim Bots and Clipper.

I Don't mind the stuff like windower, but i also find myself disturbed i almost agree with starcades first couple paragraphs (not the psychotic Illuminati conspiracy bullshit), if you don't use windower, you can be ridiculed... and not using Clipper/Claim bots puts you at a significant disadvantage.

Few days ago, I saw people wiped to Fafnir, and when i got done laughing so hard i almost peed, I noticed a few people entered Dragon's aery from the back door and Clipper'd up the ledge to take the Fafnir (they preceded to mass wipe to it as well for a good 5 minutes until the rest of their LS managed to flee-hack to them). All in all a funny event, But it did make me realize that nobody seems to give a damn about these things, because such blatant third party tool usage and... Nothing is done about it.

Its not that i'm on the starcade level yet, But i can almost see why he's gone crazy about FFXI. I myself feel like everyone around me is using Clipper/Fleetools or Claim bots, and it gets me upset.

I'm not starcade-level though... yet, But i at least mildly understand why he's so angry all the time. I can still "live and let live" in FFXI, Its just difficult to swallow.

You'll enjoy the game more if you give in

[Yugl]

I did magic accuracy earth for slow II on bitchy NMs (Hydra @ Graub) and Break's recast since that's the only sleep type spell for non-repose classes. It doesn't help that stone is one of the neglected nukes. Dark damage looks like a pending staple with Comet/Meteor arriving.

[Karbuncle]

I'm seriously too much of a pussy. I suck at covering my Ass or doing bad things. If Karbuncle got Banned, I'd probably quit FFXI. I don't need to quit yet :X. I just don't wanna take the risk.

I can however, learn to accept other people doing it >_> which is what i may start doing, Just so i don't end up like starcade.

You hear that Starcade? I hate bots as much as you do, But my incredibly need to not be like you is driving me to accept them. You're accomplishing the exact opposite of your purpose because you're a nutjob, and people will purposefully do the opposite of what you do simply to not be a nutjob by association. Good job.

[Lyall]

I'm seriously too much of a pussy. I suck at covering my Ass or doing bad things. If Karbuncle got Banned, I'd probably quit FFXI. I don't need to quit yet :X. I just don't wanna take the risk.

I can however, learn to accept other people doing it >_> which is what i may start doing, Just so i don't end up like starcade.

You hear that Starcade? I hate bots as much as you do, But my incredibly need to not be like you is driving me to accept them. You're accomplishing the exact opposite of your purpose because you're a nutjob, and people will purposefully do the opposite of what you do simply to not be a nutjob by association. Good job.

Tempted to sig. While I, too, hate bots, I don't hate them enough to tear down the entire world around me to try and make a point.

[Churchill]

I'm perfectly fine not fucking people over.

People will be people however, and they almost always try to pop that second NM or claim something/pull it somewhere and try to deaggro so someone else can claim. It's at that point the legitimate transfers over to popping 6+ NMs in a row or claiming that deaggro'd mob and CFH'ing. I think that behavior (without provocation) is what you take issue with, but for me it's a way to deal with (99% of) JP's and other assholes. If people want to fuck around, I've got the time to fuck them over.

[Draylo]

I used to care but honestly think about what is holding you back. You said it was fear, so you don't use these tools simply because you fear your account getting compromised. If that is the case, it means your aggression is mainly due to jealously over the fact that these people are doing things you want to do but can't due to fear of banning. There really isn't a moral high ground in these games or any game, people are animals and will do whatever they can to get ahead bearing in mind the fact that they can do it comfortably or w/o too much risk.

[Churchill]

I used to care but honestly think about what is holding you back. You said it was fear, so you don't use these tools simply because you fear your account getting compromised. If that is the case, it means your aggression is mainly due to jealously over the fact that these people are doing things you want to do but can't due to fear of banning. There really isn't a moral high ground in these games or any game, people are animals and will do whatever they can to get ahead bearing in mind the fact that they can do it comfortably or w/o too much risk.

This too. It's risk vs. reward, and for all the rewards that you can obtain the risk is rather low. (Even if it is just windower and the peace of mind of not playing the windows PS2 version of FFXI)

[Byrthnoth]

I'm going to go ahead and drop a "you aren't playing up to your potential" argument in here as well. Windower macros are a big game changer, whether you use Spellcast or not.

[Karbuncle]

I used to care but honestly think about what is holding you back. You said it was fear, so you don't use these tools simply because you fear your account getting compromised. If that is the case, it means your aggression is mainly due to jealously over the fact that these people are doing things you want to do but can't due to fear of banning. There really isn't a moral high ground in these games or any game, people are animals and will do whatever they can to get ahead bearing in mind the fact that they can do it comfortably or w/o too much risk.

Kinda, Half right half wrong, but its my fault for not explaining it right Dr. Armchair!

My hate for it is because its violating the ToS, or cheating, so to speak.

there really is no reason more, or no reason less. Maybe i should have been clearer in my above statement. The reason i don't use windower is because I'm afraid to get my account banned (yah...), If i had a chance to use clipper/Claim-bots/ApRadar/etc... I'd pass, Like i have in the past.

Those i pass not out of fear, But simply because I do not need them to enjoy the game. Windower is the only one i consider from time to time because of Script macros. But as it stands, I'm quite comfortable with the macro set up i have, And it works just fine for me.

But also as i said before, I can learn to get over it, and i am. What Starcade never learned is theres no point worrying about this so much. Its not our place to worry, and it'll just cause unneeded stress. So unlike him, I'm smart enough to stop caring.

[Kohan]

Don't consider poor planning in game design to be necessary "challenges."

The most obvious competitor, "World of Warcraft," allows add-ons. Clearly, it hasn't negatively affected the revenue generated by the game. Further, its designers realized that some things could do with change, and so, they changed them.

"Final Fantasy XI" went through its own changes when Abyssea was released, since that was where virtually all of its players went, and since, subsequently, older content was redesigned to function like it. However, FFXI is older than WoW, and there are some things the developers cannot change without completely rewriting the engine, which is why they created the miserable failure that is FFXIV. They were good intentioned, but—once again—hindered by poor game design decisions. Stubbornness also held them back, as while some of the add-ons WoW features were ultimately officially worked into the game's code, it took Square-Enix ages to even implement a windowed mode—don't even think about imagining they'll do much else.

Compare it to real life, if you will: the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law. I would argue that the prior is far more important, and the latter is dull, foolish, and predictable—like Starcade.

[Karbuncle]

I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding you, But i think i got the gist of it.

That said, its not that i don't feel some add-ons should be allowed (TParty, Script Macros, Seeing alliance MP pools, Etc, All can make some peoples life a lot easier.) Like i said, Windower doesn't bug me, It used too, But then i realized it was silly for it to bug me, and i moved on (like I'm slowly doing with Clipper/etc).

Clipper/Claim bots aren't born from "Improvements on bad design" unless you really twist it, Its why those have bugged me til now. They were for designed to get an advantage over other players, to quite literally fuck others over, nothing more. Those are the ones that peeved me.

Of course not everyone used them for such things (A lot of people simply use clipper to get from A to B A lot quicker, or for the GMsymbol(?))

But again, I'm dealing with it. They're here and Its nonsense to worry about it. So far, Its rarely effected my gameplay. I Hope I'm explaining what I'm trying to say correctly...

[Apelila]

It's staves.

Sad thing is, spellchecker doesn't even recognize staves as a word fml.

Carry on <.<!

Doh. to be fair I posted that while at work, and dealing with idiots has interesting....residual effects.

[Darkmagi]

Would quit in a heart beat if ja0wait was permanently broken. You have no idea what you are missing out on, makes the game about 100% more fun. Things like player collision and ja/magic/ws lock are horrible design.