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Thread: Ifrit Battle     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #441
    Smells like Onions
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    Ifrit: PGL Success!!

    I'm sure this isn't a world first, but I figured I'd chime in with the experiences I've had since my previous 'nub'ly posts.

    I've fought Ifrit just under 10 times now, and have succeeded in defeating him once (my success-rate is not of consequence to this post, however).

    As a relatively nub PGL surrounded by THM and other DD classes, I have thus far seen absolutely no difference in our abilities to be effective contributors to the battle. I even received compliments from the rest of my party, who had never seen a PGL do that well against Ifrit (I'm assuming because they never invited one before I wasn't doing anything other than AA/WS/RUN AWAY!!, which is what every other DD class does).
    Whether they be PGL, THM, LNC, CNJ, WAR, if a person is paying attention to what's going on, there should be no issue with the battle. It's getting caught off-guard and, as someone stated in another reply above, not being able to follow Ifrit's lead and do damage only when you can that causes deaths and therefore trouble.

    As for sear, the damage from it wasn't too annoying. I paid attention and made sure to avoid VulcanBurst, which helped keep my HP high enough so that I could eat a few sears here and there and only have to heal while Ifrit was up in the air and doing rushes. (In one of the parties a CNJ was smart and stuck with the DD/THM bunch at times in order to Stoneskin for us. That helped a great deal with Sear and VulcanBurst. Pretty baller!!) Hell, it's even possible to run in and out of Sear's range if you're paying attention, and it's not too difficult. A perfect run would take quite some nerve, but it's definitely possible.

    Hellfire: Most people refused me on the basis that I did not have Sentinel and could therefore not survive Hellfire. However, I have survived every single Hellfire thus far with only Rampart. I just got Sentinel and Stoneskin yesterday, so I'll have to try them out to see how much they help.

    Damage from my fists wasn't too shabby, either. I don't parse, nor do I have chat filters for others' damage activated in order to compare, but I was pulling out 150~180 on basic WS's and around 450~550 on stronger ones. AA damage was 6~7 per hit; StoneFists brought that up to 7~8 (lol).

    Any which way, I'm hoping for PGL to be a stand-out DD against Ifrit come the release of the MNK job-class. WindFists will tear him apart (I hope), at the cost of taking a wittle bit of Sear damage, which, as I stated above, should not be an issue for someone who is paying attention to the battle!

    I'm tired of hearing "lolPGL', so let's see some good stuff for us in 1.21, SE!

  2. #442
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    If you're playing with mages that are worth a damn, your damage will not be nearly as good as theirs. The "ranged" advantages from mages alone outweigh melee ones, of which there are none in the fight. Everytime a sear smacks you, that's you and the tank getting hit and is just that much more damage you and everyone else needs to do.

    As a THM I can land a Thunder for ~250 sometimes and a Thundara for ~500 or more with crits. Thundagas aren't worth the MP, but can add another ~350 damage and grant a critical bonus. With all THM can do from the backline, it's not surprising that the community doesn't want PGL or other frontline melee in there. It's really counter-intuitive to the fight in general since it was designed to disadvantage anyone close up from the start.

  3. #443
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    If you're playing with mages that are worth a damn, your damage will not be nearly as good as theirs. The "ranged" advantages from mages alone outweigh melee ones, of which there are none in the fight. Everytime a sear smacks you, that's you and the tank getting hit and is just that much more damage you and everyone else needs to do.

    As a THM I can land a Thunder for ~250 sometimes and a Thundara for ~500 or more with crits. Thundagas aren't worth the MP, but can add another ~350 damage and grant a critical bonus. With all THM can do from the backline, it's not surprising that the community doesn't want PGL or other frontline melee in there. It's really counter-intuitive to the fight in general since it was designed to disadvantage anyone close up from the start.

  4. #444
    the whitest knight u' know
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    It's "lolPGL" because in order to touch Ifrit after he starts glowing, you're going to be taking ~300 damage every time he Sears. Yeah, Second Wind gives you about an extra +300 HP than other classes, but that doesn't really make up for it over the length of the battle (especially now that it takes 15 min or so). I have had the chance to try my PGL out on Ifrit to attempt to beat back some of the negative shit about the class, but it's unfortunately true (for this fight). If you have Lancer, that's a better option, period. Pugilist does very good damage, but you're an MP sponge when you can just be replaced by an endless mass of people with 50 Lancer. (This all applies to Marauder just as much, so there's no reason to ever pick MRD over PGL or vice-versa.)

    If you want your Pugilist to be recognized as being halfway decent, use it in stronghold parties, use it on Batraal, or any of the other various NMs in the game. Archer has too much of an edge in the moogle fight, and Lancer has too much of an edge in this fight to bother dragging a Pugilist through when so many people in the game have multiple classes at 50.

    Also, Fists of Fire are worthless on Ifrit. Fists of Earth is like double damage from normal melee hits, but the defense bonus is useless. Also, it's very difficult to Sucker Punch your MP back as the amount drained is based on your damage. Unfortunately, I don't think even Fists of Wind will bump up the DPS of Monk to make it worth it on Ifrit (especially if cross-class abilities get locked out). I don't know why you were doing such little damage with Fists of Earth up, I was doing like 18 damage per fist.

    P.S. I got my first Ifrit weapon to drop after 110+ wins. (A fucking Cane. lol.)

    P.P.S. ... and after about 10 Moogle wins, I got Mogblade and Mogaxe... random number generator GO.

  5. #445
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    I have no choice but to admit that all of your responses are accurate and irrefutable. Of the 5DDs we had in our last PT, I ranked 3rd and 4th in fights for overall damage. THMs tear him up, undoubtedly, and I've come to realize that Sear does cut in to my ability to deal damage effectively, as I have to constantly run in and out of range. And as stated above, and of the Elemental-Fists abilities is also a double-edged sword due to their usage of MP and the fact that they doesn't work on WS's (if I am correct).
    However, I'm simply happy that my LS has accepted me as a viable option for the battle, because PGL is currently my only LV50 job. Everyone was surprised, because they had never given PGL a chance and simply accepted the "common wisdom".
    Anywho, thank you to everyone for their thoughts and responses. I'm working on MRD to 50 atm, so once I have that I'll most likely use it for Ifrit. If anyone has tips regarding this, I'm all ears!

  6. #446
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    Found this through twitter, guide for THM doing Ifrit fight. Looks handy to pass around if its someone's first time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=eMBmtSODzgo

  7. #447
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    The time line is a little messy in that video, so I'm not exactly sure what the "don't cast/cast nows" are supposed to mean. I'm assuming they mean don't start casting until he's in Sear mode, but that seems beyond absurd. The time jumps from 21min > 25min > 18min and there's no reason you should be waiting anywhere near that long to start nuking; it should be dead/almost dead by the time it hits the 20min mark.

  8. #448

    The timing stuff is easy to figure out and when you do the fight becomes a lot easier.

    Ifrit uses a WS every 15 seconds, and the time starts from the beginning of the WS not the end (which is why it seems like he uses a WS straight away after triple charge or eruption). If you know this, avoiding WS becomes 100x easier. You can plan what abilities you can use in that time period to better be active while keeping safe. Usually if I can't attack I'll cure or use AoE Stoneskin.

    The other thing to know is that Ifrit doesn't use the same WS twice in a row. Generally after a safe WS (Vulcan Blast, Incineration or Cyclone) you should always expect something dangerous, and after something dangerous you can (but not necessarily should) expect something safe.

  9. #449
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    Can anyone post the pic where CNJ should stand during this fight?

  10. #450
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    Someone posted this video awhile back, should prove helpful:


  11. #451
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    If you look there is a small rock just to the right of the mage stands that is a good indicator of where you should be healing from goodluck.

  12. #452
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    Important note: I'm told that the places to stand are relative to Ifrit, so that only applies if your tank hasn't moved him around from his starting position much.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Important note: I'm told that the places to stand are relative to Ifrit, so that only applies if your tank hasn't moved him around from his starting position much.
    This is true.

  14. #454
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    just a heads up if you have a skilled CON you can go with 6DPS + 1 con(healing) + 1 con (tanking).

    My hate ceiling was THROUGH THE ROOF on CON as main tank, keeping (for those that use my parser) 120+ HPS going gives you at the very least 70+ Enmity per second and the whole group of THM's said they couldn't touch red even when doing 40+DPS.

    Just a fun way to change up the otherwise monotonous Ifrit that we've been doing for months.

    I think HP on the tanking CON is the best way, I was getting hit for 950 swipe/attack with absolute terrible gear.

    Sanguine Rite rotation would make this a cake fight if you really wanted I bet you could do it with as few as 6ppl

  15. #455
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    The CNJ tank idea works really well on Ifrit. We actually did 6 man it with myself as the CNJ tank a couple days ago and the fight only lasted 7 minutes still. The easiest way to secure hate is to pre-buff Sacred Prism first, then open with Voke, have everyone use Thunder only to get on the hate list > Cura THM > Sacred Prism > Cura THM. You're basically set from there after double prism cure just curing yourself for survival. I agree with the HP build being the strongest here. I'd add that it's very nice because Healer Hand and HP don't mix in materia slotting so everthing gets a Healer Hand or a HP. Also, I intentionally go no shield to gain access to Foresight.

    I think in the future, the idea of "CNJ tanking" will probably get addressed by SE. Though other traditional tanking jobs may receive buffs, there is a fundamental flaw in the way damage taken works right now in that the harder the mob hits, the less useful stacking DEF becomes. Because of this, when you fight single, big targets that hit for 800+, the primary benefit of a GLA (higher defense) is nulled. GLA theoretically has more damage mitigation tools, but with the amount of HP you can cure on a CNJ per second, simply out-curing the damage you take often works. Sanguine Rite only perpetuates this since CNJ gets hit for quite a bit. HP is important to prevent large single hits from causing you to go yellow/red, but once you've achieved enough, it becomes fairly easy. Interrupts also will not occur on cure/cura I've noticed (unless being attacked from ranged attacks for some reason).

    Currently I've been trying to work on a way to tank Ifrit without a healer at all (where the tank is the only healer). I think I could probably get close, but still need a tad better gear. This idea to go main tank and main healer works conceptually though. When Seiken did his ARC/LNC testing, there was a big push from other players asking for high level targets to be tested. He ended up testing on R59 Drakes in the faction leve (4 star, 50+3*3). The way we held this mob was by having me on CNJ solo tanking it, so he could take as many shots or auto-attacks naked as he pleased. The R59 drake would hit for about 650 a shot with 1200+ Burning Cyclones, but it simply just didn't matter when you can Cure + Cura for 600+1250 every 10 seconds. CNJ MP regeneration through Shroud of Saints (which you can actually use in this situation, but probably not Ifrit), Blissful Mind, Sanguine, and Featherfoot, meant that we could go the whole 40 minute leve without resting if necessary to collect trials.

    EDIT:
    I'll also throw in that my personal "ideal" set for a healing CNJ is HP gear + healer hand for the best cure efficiency and highest blissful mind returns. This is incidentally also the best "tanking" set in my opinion. Because of this, you can train your CNJ healers to also double as tanks or back up tanks without having to switch gear. When this idea of CNJ tanking becomes popularized, I have no doubt there will be a push to nerf it in some way (by either lowering the HP cured / MP cost ratio or by changing some kind of internal formula to force CNJ to take more damage).

  16. #456

    You mentioned not using a shield so you could use Foresight, have you considered keeping the shield and using Outmaneuver?

    Between the extra Bloodthirst you can stick on the shield slot, random blocks, and extra blocks when Outm. is up I'd like to think it'd be enough to outdo 1 parry/min.

    But then again even on GLA shield block rate....leaves much to be desired to say the least. Would be interesting to know what a CNJ's block rate on Ifrit would be tho.

  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko View Post
    I think in the future, the idea of "CNJ tanking" will probably get addressed by SE. Though other traditional tanking jobs may receive buffs, there is a fundamental flaw in the way damage taken works right now in that the harder the mob hits, the less useful stacking DEF becomes. Because of this, when you fight single, big targets that hit for 800+, the primary benefit of a GLA (higher defense) is nulled. GLA theoretically has more damage mitigation tools, but with the amount of HP you can cure on a CNJ per second, simply out-curing the damage you take often works. Sanguine Rite only perpetuates this since CNJ gets hit for quite a bit. HP is important to prevent large single hits from causing you to go yellow/red, but once you've achieved enough, it becomes fairly easy. Interrupts also will not occur on cure/cura I've noticed (unless being attacked from ranged attacks for some reason).
    I think it's a bit too early to jump to conclusions. If this holds true still in 1.21, then I agree we have a problem, but until we see what a PLD can do I would hold my breath on the matter.

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You mentioned not using a shield so you could use Foresight, have you considered keeping the shield and using Outmaneuver?

    Between the extra Bloodthirst you can stick on the shield slot, random blocks, and extra blocks when Outm. is up I'd like to think it'd be enough to outdo 1 parry/min.

    But then again even on GLA shield block rate....leaves much to be desired to say the least. Would be interesting to know what a CNJ's block rate on Ifrit would be tho.
    Blocks have 4 tiers similar to MEVA at -25%, -50%, -75%, and -100% damage (the final tier only accessed through skill meaning Aegis Boon). On Ifrit you're pretty much only going to see the -25% variety if you get anything at all. So even if you block a couple shots, the return as far as your damage taken will not be as great as a single -90% damage parry on Foresight every 60 seconds I think. It's too bad you don't get any MP return on Outmaneuver off-class. People in LS have definitely debated the usefulness of the parry vs. the HP on shield though. If you can simply out-cure the damage being dealt, then I'd rather take the HP for buffer against the 1 shot move.

    Regarding block rate, we still haven't completed the testing on this, but I know for sure that if you want to even have a chance to block something on Ifrit, you would need to use a high block rate shield. Right now, the only high block rates come from non-socketable items like Gridanian Buckler, so you lose that HP. I still don't even know if block is viable with that on Ifrit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw View Post
    I think it's a bit too early to jump to conclusions. If this holds true still in 1.21, then I agree we have a problem, but until we see what a PLD can do I would hold my breath on the matter.
    You're probably right. I think one of the main reasons CNJ tanking seems to excel in 1.20 is the lack of general difficulty. So maybe if they ramp up the difficulty like YoshiP promised, it won't be able to just out-cure mobs.

  19. #459
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    CNJ tank should be like Fight Club. Do not talk about Fight Club.

  20. #460
    the whitest knight u' know
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    We just did an Ifrit run for the hell of it with PLD/WHM/WHM/BRD/MNK/MNK/DRG/DRG to see how a job party would go... Aside from one of the Monks and one of the White Mages disconnecting for most of the fight, it was super fucking easy. We ended up wiping on Hellfire because we weren't paying much attention... plus most melees have very little options when it comes to buckling down to eat the damage.

    I was on Monk and Fists of Wind was doing a solid 16~18 damage per fist... and with the new Sucker Punch algorithm (~250 MP return) and Ballad of the Magi, MP was not a concern whatsoever. Also, Fists of Wind's movement speed makes avoiding cracks and plumes so easy. With Ifrit's Claws, old accessories, and no buffs, Dragon Kick was ~500 total dmg, and Howling Fist was about 500~600.

    I noticed the DRGs now have two combos they can just alternate between without ever having to hit Ifrit in the face to initiate... and Elusive Jump is pretty awesome for avoiding cracks (and looks sweet doing so).