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  1. #1
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    Information Redundancy and the Failures of Wikis

    Over the last few months, I've been thinking about the problems inherent in the wikipedia format, and the problems that we create for ourselves by how we use it. I've basically boiled them down to two things.

    1) Information Redundancy Definition : Having the same information in multiple places.
    It might seem like no big deal, but this is the single largest enemy on the wiki. Unlike reality, facts in FFXI change every update. We have to be able to locate all the obscure places that mention former "facts" and replace them with the new facts. These are problems that we wouldn't have (as often) if we were a database, but we aren't a database.
    Solution : Combine information that affects multiple pages onto a category page that includes them.
    Example : Valor Minuet vs. Category:Minuet
    Example : Valor Minuet vs. Valor Minuet II
    Potential Problems : Now that the information isn't directly on every single page where it may apply, you can't find it as easily. We need to figure out some way to train people to check Category pages for families of spells and abilities.

    2) Inconsistent Formatting Definition : The same type of information being represented in a totally different way.
    Inconsistent formatting is an unfortunate outgrowth of having multiple good editors working on a project that lasts years and outgrows editing teams. While we don't need the same formatting everywhere to convey the same information (thank god), it really does make it a lot nicer looking and uniform.
    Solution : Use Templates, which allows us to streamline adding new abilities and reformat things in the future as necessary without remaking pages.
    Example : Blood Pact: Rage vs. Astral Flow
    Example : Helices vs. Barspells
    Potential Problem 1 : Some people are intimidated by using Templates. Permit me to assure you that they're a lot easier than learning how to make tables that cool looking.
    Potential Problem 2 : Some things (like the Helices vs. Barspells example) are so simple and single-purpose that it is almost pointless to make a Template for them. Other things (like Blood Pact: Rage/Ward JA pages) are so complicated that it's also almost pointless to make a template for them. Standardization must be done by hand, which means it is time editors spend not-doing other things.

  2. #2
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    1 big issue I have with BG Wiki is pages for gear don't have anything on it's page to tell you where it's obtained from. It's not true for all gear, but there's a lot in there with no info at all about where to obtain it. I'm referring to a single page of a specific gear.

  3. #3
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyangi View Post
    1 big issue I have with BG Wiki is pages for gear don't have anything on it's page to tell you where it's obtained from. It's not true for all gear, but there's a lot in there with no info at all about where to obtain it. I'm referring to a single page of a specific gear.
    That is a big problem. We try to get new gear and items filled in as they are discovered, but there is a lot of older stuff that needs to be filled in.

    It is all a matter of needing to get more people involved with helping to update pages. It isn't very glamorous, but it is rewarding knowing that you are helping people and growing knowledge.

  4. #4

    I hope my suggestion isn't so dumb that it makes everybody in this topic dumber for reading it. I really appreciate the work of Byrth and Septimus and I'd feel bad if I struck both profoundly retarded through my work of stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    We need to figure out some way to train people to check Category pages for families of spells and abilities.
    I think a strategically placed link could accomplish this in many cases. In the case of the Minuet pages, for example, the cap could be described as "Increases via the formula for Minuet potency up to a cap of Eventy-Tree". or simply "The formula for Minuets determines Attack added." if you want to trim it even more.

    Most tiered spells could have similar links in a similar place, although there are some outliers. This would be redundant in it's own way, since there are links to the category all over the page already, but it wouldn't clutter the page as the formula itself might.

    Such a link would hopefully stick out like a sore wiener to someone who wanted more information about that category of spells and actively direct them to that page.

    Also, and this bit is very important, the link should definitely lead to the category page rather than Taco Bell's website.

  5. #5
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    Also, a lot of pages that have the Grellow exclamations for mobs have the exclamations on a drop not affected by Grellow.

  6. #6
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyangi View Post
    Also, a lot of pages that have the Grellow exclamations for mobs have the exclamations on a drop not affected by Grellow.
    Is there a good list for which drops are affected by grellow and which are not? If someone could fix the abyssea pages, I could work on applying it to the NM pages.

  7. #7
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    I didn't want to make a new thread, what I have to say I feel seems relevant to recent discussion in the thread. I wanted to point out 2 things in the Wiki that need fixed, they are both very minor however.

    In the Job Points section, the link provided for Fly High under Dragoon links to a quest by that name and not the actual ability, the ability has (Ability) after it when pulled up.

    Also, the description for Grand Pas under Dancer in the Job Points section says Increases Defense by 1. The description of the category says damage is increased. After going to Grand Pas actual page what the ability says ingame and its description do not match what the Job Points page has.

  8. #8
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    raise the dead.necro bump of sorts.

    theres really a couple of things to take away from this..

    1) its a wiki.. if you see a potential problem, you can fix it yourself. it isn't that much of a stretch to expect wiki users to contribute.. but i suppose not everyone knows basic wiki scripting.

    2) in a wiki, its important to know what you need to have and what you want to have. simplicity is often key - oftentimes we overstretch ourselves by adding extra details in certain things now without realizing that the details will come back to bite you in the ass because they need to be fixed later, or you try to apply them across the board.

    I don't edit on bgwiki. The only time i do is when i fill in some random details in the missions/quest pages.. but i do understand the plight here, because I singlehandedly curate the FFXI pages on the final fantasy wiki. consider it an exercise in futility, but with proper planning you can get a lot done with less.

    my biggest advice for any mmorpg related wiki is to give up hope of ever being like a database. don't make articles or lists for items or weapons or equipment cos 1) you'll never complete it, 2) if you do it manually you need to cut out a lot of information to preserve sanity and make it easier to follow up on and 3) a list for the sake of having a list is useless.

  9. #9
    i should really shut up
    You can safely ignore me I am a troll

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spira View Post
    my biggest advice for any mmorpg related wiki is to give up hope of ever being like a database. don't make articles or lists for items or weapons or equipment cos 1) you'll never complete it, 2) if you do it manually you need to cut out a lot of information to preserve sanity and make it easier to follow up on and 3) a list for the sake of having a list is useless.
    You never complete anything on an MMO wiki until the MMO is shut down.

    I don't know I just think all the ways to get an item (not just a synth recipie for something like robe, but the vendor too) outside of obscure things like the gobbie box or Squintox Dryeyes should be on a page. That all the vendors should have item tables with prices. This alone is a mass amount of work that will take me seemingly years to do. Idealy others would be doing this too, but...
    Either way, if you are not going to list valid useful information to fill each and every page even if it is a ton of work. Then why bother having a wiki? The reason people have always looked down on BGwiki is because while it is the best source for new information for years now. It lacks the lolclopedia style of mass info on an item people want. While we will likely never list stupid shit like you can get Darkspirit pact from Squintox Dryeyes we should have the other information on every page.

  10. #10
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    I didn't want to make a new thread for this. Where are Gifts located in the BG wiki? Searching by Gifts got me nothing and the job points page makes no references to it.

  11. #11
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    I do not think anyone has ever bothered to make a page for Gifts.

  12. #12
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    Are Gifts obtained automatically based on the link on SE site at the respective intervals, or when those amount of JP have been spent on that job?

  13. #13
    Yoshi P
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    The JP need to be spent.

  14. #14
    Ridill
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    Disregard, I cook socks.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spira View Post
    2) in a wiki, its important to know what you need to have and what you want to have. simplicity is often key - oftentimes we overstretch ourselves by adding extra details in certain things now without realizing that the details will come back to bite you in the ass because they need to be fixed later, or you try to apply them across the board.
    Came to comment on an issue and I think this comment rolls with it:

    Can we remove at least the bullshit from the "Strengths and weaknesses" people are putting on the individual job pages?

    Things like:

    BLU:
    Arguably has the best Job Points and Gifts in the game.
    Capable of self skillchaining.
    Somewhat gear intensive.
    Has a steeper learning curve than other jobs.

    GEO:
    Since it functions completely differently to a Bard or a Corsair it can be difficult to learn for an entry-level player.
    The abilities it uses to enhance its Geomancy spells such as Blaze of Glory and Bolster are tied to long duration cooldowns.
    Geomancy Luopan are easily destroyed by high level targets. This, coupled with the high MP cost and ability cooldowns, can make the job extremely frustrating to play
    Highly reliant on Geomancy and Handbell skill equipment and/or Job Points to reach its maximum potential.
    Idris is extremely expensive and thus highly coveted, if not considered an unrealistic benchmark for most.
    Elemental Magic is completely outdone by a Black Mage or Scholar. As such it is counter-productive to their spells in endgame content.
    This is because multiple Magic Burst in the same Skillchain severely cripple the amount of damage each successive spell does. Therefore having a Geomancer doing Fire V (for example) at the start of a Skillchain will reduce the overall output of the group during that window.
    Physical damage output is extremely poor.

    White mage:
    Invaluable in 'endgame' content.
    Physical defense is weak.
    Cannot provide party-wide Enhancing Magic as well as a Scholar.
    While passable, Regen from a White Mage is no match for the same from a Scholar.

    Black Mage:
    Possesses all three tiers of the Aspir line of spells.
    Physical damage output is predictably poor.
    Physical defense is also predictably poor.
    Can encounter MP issues if not managed properly.
    While capable of healing itself through it's use of a Subjob it cannot maintain it's own HP if it draws too much Enmity.

    etc. etc.

    Some of this stuff is "no shit" and some of it is pretty much opinion. And as has been discussion in this thread in an ever changing MMO who knows when some of this stuff will be outdated. And a lot of the jobs don't even have a strengths/weaknesses section, much less one full of needless conjecture.

    I could just go in and remove it, sure, but then someone can go right back and add it again, so figured it might be better to make a post about it.

  16. #16
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    Everyone who has commented on it has said they hate it, so I vote yes.

  17. #17
    HABS SUCK!!!!!
    Sepukku is my Hero
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    The best part is its all one person who did it for every job page.

  18. #18
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    yeah lets remove them. the page can be locked. only things that need to be added (JP, Gifts, JSE) i can do.

  19. #19
    Iroha for Dissidia
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    I can't create a new thread about this since I'm under 10 posts, so I hope this fits well enough here, sorry about the inconvenience it might sort of fit since there seem to be about 2 or 3 wiki pages per spell that has a scroll, so...:


    I noticed that some, if not all scroll pages, can't link properly to the corresponding FFXIDB.com or FFXIAH.com pages, since apparently the scroll template uses the page name as a reference, and the naming pattern "<spell name> (Scroll)" isn't recognized at those sites. They do recognize the pattern "Scroll of <spell name>", but that naming standard tends to be applied to redirects instead.

    I took the liberty of experimenting with Absorb-ACC (I'd link to it, but apparently that's not possible under 10 posts), and that involved renaming (moving) its 2 images (icon and description) accordingly for the new naming pattern before moving the "main" page's content to the redirect one, then making the former main the redirect. It might be a slightly annoying process to tackle manually, but it should make using the wiki simpler to check prices and drop data from FFXIDB if consistently applied.

    I do wonder how the "<spell name> (Scroll)" standard got started though. A lot of item pages in the wiki seems to be based off of their abbreviated names in the inventory instead of the complete version in their descriptions - I guess maybe there's an automated process to get that data from the game? If so, I wonder how the "(Scroll)" bit got in there...

    I wonder if there's some automated way to tweak the rest of the pages to get the links to work, either by changing the template to change the "<spell name> (Scroll)" naming pattern to "Scroll of <spell name>" for links, or some other way...