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Thread: pDif and damage     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #81
    Chram
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    Update on the max pDif calculation. Can generate the 1.0 cap on pDif at lower wRatios with:

    Max Calc:

    A = wRatio + MAX(MIN(wRatio * 0.25, 0.375), 0.3)
    B = wRatio + MIN(1-wRatio, 0.5)
    Max Calc = MIN(MAX(A, B), 3.0)


    This generates a 1.0 cap for wRatios between 0.5 and 0.7. 0.7 at the high end because that's the point that the A line intercepts 1.0. 0.5 at the low end because that's roughly where it's presumed that max starts falling below 1.0 again.

    Note that this is linear below 0.5, with a max pDif of 0.5 at 0.0 wRatio. I don't know how accurate that is, since we have no real data in that region.

    Here's a graph of what the full extent looks like, now:


  2. #82
    Masamune
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    - Did you check if this generates actually a freq spike WHENEVER the point {cRatio;pDIF}){1;1} is generated ? (and static, not "moving" with max and min)

    - Those plateaux must also have a spike with increasing freq intensity: highest @ cRatio=1.25 (same intesity as the one from 0.7~<cRatio<1.25), reducing until none at all @ cRatio=1.5.
    Despite lack of data, i think the opposite should also be observable at other plateau: highest @ cRatio=~0.75, to none at 0.5.

    In the end, i think that spike is what produces the skewed average pDIF=0.8*cRatio+0.2 on the range 0.5<cRatio<1.5.

  3. #83
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune
    - Did you check if this generates actually a freq spike WHENEVER the point {cRatio;pDIF}){1;1} is generated ? (and static, not "moving" with max and min)
    These formulas only define the limits of the values that can be generated, not how those values are generated. As such, it can not and does not generate any spike. In fact, at the moment it can't generate any value between the min and max at all.

    Those plateaux must also have a spike with increasing freq intensity: highest @ cRatio=1.25 (same intesity as the one from 0.7~<1.25), reducing="" until="" none="" at="" all="" @="" cratio="1.5.<br"> Despite lack of data, i think the opposite should also be observable at other plateau: highest @ cRatio=~0.75, to none at 0.5.<1.25),>
    At the moment we know that there is a spike in the 1.25-1.50 range, however we don't actually have any data on the 0.5-0.7 range, so can't assert that there is a spike there as well. I can't complete a definition for the random distribution until some more points are solidified.

    Rena claims to have data in that region, but has not actually provided any numbers. Byrth has started testing at the extreme low end. I'm considering some testing in the middle-low range.

  4. #84
    Masamune
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    I have a parse coming too at cRatio=~0.51 on EM Bluffalos, so far it confirms crits "eats" into the plateau of normal hits, but sample size still too low to confirm with certainty if the spike disappeared...
    Other interesting thing i discovered is.... dmg is no longer floored at 0: min i did so far is 11.

    Yea i asked rena too about this data in this same thread if i remember correctly...

    IMHO i think the 2 most important slopes to determine are:
    - the one @ 1.5 < cRatio < 2 (pretty much determined now)
    - the one @ 0 < cRatio < 0.5 ...
    .... because i think the RANGE term within the PseudoGenerator is simply the range between those 2 slopes ... the term Generator defining how to "reset" values generated above/below plateaux, into 1 (making spikes appear)...

    EDIT: also little correction:
    Quote Originally Posted by Motenten
    At the moment we know that there is a spike in the 1.25-1.50 range, however we don't actually have any data on the 0.5-0.7 range, so can't assert that there is a spike there as well.
    Look at graphs in last sheet of my excel sheet with all distributions plotted into freq graphs. If you look closer you will notice that spike is basically present ALWAYS whenever the value pDIF=1 is expected within the expected range, ie the spike is present at ANY cRatio < 1.5, not just 1.25 < cRatio < 1.5 ...
    Yea there is missing data below 0.73 but the parses shows that most likely spike continues all the way down to cRatio=0.
    I think this spike even "transfers" to crits when pDIF=1 goes into crit pdifs @ cRatio < 0.5

  5. #85
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune
    Look at graphs in last sheet of my excel sheet with all distributions plotted into freq graphs. If you look closer you will notice that spike is basically present ALWAYS whenever the value pDIF=1 is expected within the expected range, ie the spike is present at ANY cRatio < 1.5, not just 1.25 < cRatio < 1.5 ...
    Ah, I missed the Brass Jadagna data; forgot about that. Added that in to see how things match up.

    Min pDif: still a near-perfect match. Am pretty certain that this is correct.

    Max pDif: Mine predicts values that are a bit higher than observed. From looking at the values, I'm pretty sure my estimate is not fully correct.


    Edit: Also, out of curiosity, what damage weapon are you using for that test? Is it a (total) ~d75?

  6. #86
    Masamune
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    er... which test: the one i'm doing atm, or the brass jadagna one ? The BJ one is d45, i don't know what you mean by "(total) d75".

    For max pDIF values parsed bit higher than predicted, imho you shouldnot care about because i'm not sure those are the true absolute maxs, despite the sample size...
    i'll also planning a parse @ cRatio=1, the ones i have already have insufficient sample especially for crits, but now with GnarledHorn+DarkDepths = 50/50 parsed crits/normals The goal of this parse will be to check the proportion of generated values between crits and normals, then can compare it with another parse @ cRatio=0.75.
    Those 3 parses (cRatios=0.5, 0.75 and 1) should provide 3 clean points for the crit min/max slopes.

  7. #87
    Chram
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    The one you're doing at the moment. Obviously I can just look up the base damage on the brass jadagna one, but you haven't provided any info about the setup of the one you're currently doing except for the target. (total) means including fStr, but you may not know that, so just the weapon is fine.

  8. #88
    Chram
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    Just for clarification on an earlier statement I made, here's the chunk of the graph showing the Brass Jadagna min/max data:



    As you can see, the min pDif line appears to be rock solid. I feel fully comfortable in considering it 'complete' as far as any estimated calculations are concerned, though the final verdict will have to wait for the remaining low-cRatio tests.

    The max pDif line, however, appears to have some issues. In particular, the last of the upper set of connected observation points requires a max pDif of at least +304/1024 over cRatio. However it's not feasible to intercept that point in a general sloping calculation (eg: 1.25 * cRatio), as it usually ends up below that minimum. Likewise, leaving it as a flat addition (eg: min capped at +0.3) -also- puts it a bit high for the lower Brass Jadagna points.

    The extra fly in the ointment is of course the 1.05 secondary multiplier: there's nothing guaranteeing that the max observed values (cyan+yellow paired lines) are actually a full 1.05-ish away from the base primary damage. As such, the two brown lines -could- be a bit higher up, fitting into the predicted max pDif line.

    If I do some tweaking to max values (eg: fixing a max damage on a higher cratio that's lower than one for a lower cRatio) and assume a 1.04 multiplier, the results are pretty close. Still, I'm not entirely sure about it, so will just leave it as 'tentative' for now.

  9. #89
    Chram
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    Verification of min damage formula:

    Took current complete data set of min values (136 wRatio points) and worked on testing the limits of my formula's validity.

    Means:

    1)

    Calculate predicted primary min damage value based on wRatio. Subtract the predicted value from the observed min value. If the result is ever negative, the formula fails (ie: data was observed that can't be generated by the formula).

    @slope of 152/1024, minimum offset is 750/1024. 749/1024 generates a negative test check.

    2)

    Check average values of wRatios between 1.5 and 2.4 (min is capped at 1.0 below 1.5, and is capped at -0.375 above 2.4). Look for the combination of slope and offset that generates the lowest overall average (closest to getting perfect matches at all wRatios).

    Minimum was at slope 153/1024 and offset of either 751/1024 or 752/1024 (750/1024 creates negatives), with an average difference value of 0.288. Slope 152 was very close to that at 0.365. As slopes varied, and offsets adjusted to keep them out of the negative, the overall average always went up significantly.

    Also of note: sets that had a positive value on the difference with the prediction were almost invariably for data sets with high D weapons. That is, with more possible values to hit, the chance of hitting the true minimum was lessened. The vast majority had a difference of 0, 1 or 2, and most of the non-0 results came from crit sets, which have far fewer sample points than the non-crit sets.

    Conclusion:

    152/1024 is divisible by 8. 153/1024 is the closest match (without going over) one can get to 0.15 in units of /1024. Either one could reasonably be chosen.

    I've decided to go with 153/1024 as the slope instead of 152/1024. That way it can reasonably be explained as a 0.15 multiplier. I'll stay with -752/1024 (0.734375) as the offset, as there are no other values that stand out as suitable choices.

    Though.. one can perhaps use 0.7333 as the decimal value, as that would roughly match 751/1024 (and doesn't generate failure tests). 0.7333 would be 1 - (1/3.75). Given that 0.375 comes up elsewhere a few times, I would not be surprised if there's a formula that ends up with 10x its inverse in it.

    Right, I'll go with 751/1024 for the offset. For now, the formula can be shown decimally as:

    wRatio * 1.15 - 0.7333
    or
    wRatio * 1.15 + 1/3.75 - 1

  10. #90
    Masamune
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    The one i'm doing atm is completely different than the jadagna one.

    I'm on PLD99 with IronRamLance(d70) STR112 (but dunno yet BaseDMG=fSTR+d since i didnot get EM Bluffalos' VIT), while BJtest were on lvl75 STR85.

    Here are current parse results:
    Spoiler: show
    Melee Damage
    Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
    Masamunai 103926 0 103926 93.94 % 1383/557 71.29 % 71.29 % 11/73 42.04 42.04

    Melee Crit Damage
    Player #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
    Masamunai 755 71/136 102.69 54.59 %

    Other Physical Damage (Counterattacks and Retaliations)
    Player CA.Dmg CA.Hits-0 CA.Low/Hi CA-0.Avg
    Masamunai 6280 81 14/133 77.53

    Masamunai
    Melee
    11: 9
    12: 11
    13: 13
    14: 6
    15: 14
    16: 15
    17: 5
    18: 9
    19: 12
    20: 4
    21: 17
    22: 11
    23: 4
    24: 13
    25: 13
    26: 6
    27: 8
    28: 4
    29: 13
    30: 14
    31: 13
    32: 7
    33: 5
    34: 7
    35: 12
    36: 16
    37: 7
    38: 10
    39: 9
    40: 6
    41: 8
    42: 10
    43: 10
    44: 10
    45: 13
    46: 5
    47: 13
    48: 3
    49: 14
    50: 11
    51: 18
    52: 5
    53: 15
    54: 12
    55: 10
    56: 9
    57: 7
    58: 8
    59: 14
    60: 9
    61: 9
    62: 5
    63: 11
    64: 16
    65: 13
    66: 12
    67: 11
    68: 16
    69: 11
    70: 10
    71: 6
    72: 10
    73: 1
    Melee Crits
    71: 1
    72: 5
    73: 9
    74: 10
    75: 13
    76: 13
    77: 12
    78: 10
    79: 9
    80: 10
    81: 12
    82: 13
    83: 11
    84: 20
    85: 12
    86: 11
    87: 12
    88: 20
    89: 15
    90: 12
    91: 9
    92: 18
    93: 10
    94: 10
    95: 15
    96: 12
    97: 16
    98: 16
    99: 15
    100: 8
    101: 7
    102: 12
    103: 8
    104: 16
    105: 14
    106: 14
    107: 12
    108: 9
    109: 14
    110: 11
    111: 10
    112: 12
    113: 15
    114: 13
    115: 16
    116: 13
    117: 11
    118: 16
    119: 11
    120: 13
    121: 14
    122: 9
    123: 8
    124: 11
    125: 10
    126: 9
    127: 16
    128: 6
    129: 14
    130: 13
    131: 9
    132: 11
    133: 9
    134: 8
    135: 1
    136: 1
    Counters
    14: 1
    16: 1
    17: 1
    22: 2
    23: 1
    29: 1
    30: 1
    31: 1
    32: 2
    33: 1
    34: 1
    36: 1
    37: 1
    38: 1
    40: 1
    43: 1
    46: 1
    47: 2
    50: 1
    51: 1
    52: 1
    54: 2
    55: 1
    57: 1
    58: 2
    59: 1
    63: 2
    64: 2
    70: 2
    72: 1
    73: 1
    74: 2
    78: 1
    83: 1
    84: 1
    87: 1
    90: 2
    91: 1
    92: 2
    94: 1
    95: 1
    96: 1
    97: 1
    98: 1
    100: 3
    103: 2
    107: 1
    111: 1
    115: 1
    116: 1
    119: 1
    120: 1
    121: 2
    124: 1
    125: 2
    126: 1
    127: 1
    128: 1
    129: 1
    130: 1
    131: 2
    132: 2
    133: 1


    Testing conditions were: EM Bluffalos @ Abyssea-Uleguerand with atmas GnarledHorn + DarkDepths, Attack 360 dropped to 270 with constant Defender.

    BTW, i dunno who tested GH counter but currently it looks lot more around 5%, not 10%...

    EDIT: there are also 2 other parses i did on Steelshells lvl73/74 with ironRamLance Attack264 (so cRatios 0.746 and 0.733). Check the xls. The crit samples are very low tough to be exploitable.
    What is important to note tough from those 2 parses is that despite low sample i hit for 0s and a lot, while on bluffalos with much lower cRatio i hit for 11 grand minimum... New cap? I doubt since if there were a "hard cap" there would be frequency spike, which isnot the case currently so far...

  11. #91
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune
    The one i'm doing atm is compeltely different than the jadagna one.
    I know. That's why I'm asking...


    Anyway, random thoughts on the preliminary data:


    Did you have an exact defense value for the buffloes? You mentioned 0.51 cRatio, so with 270 attack I assume about a 530 defense?

    Min damage of 11 implies (using my formulas) a base damage between 75 and 80. Weapon damage is 70, so fStr between 5 and 10.

    Factoring out the 1.05 damage spread, max primary damage appears to be in the range of 70-71 (70*1.05 = 73.5, 71*1.04 = 73.84).

    Since you have a 0.51 cRatio, that also implies a 1.51 critRatio, which is interesting in that that's about the point where min damage just barely touches 1.0. Since your min crit damage was 71, we can assume that that's what the total base damage is (70 weapon + 1 fStr).

    +1 fStr would mean a dStr of around -7 to -8. With 112 str, that implies a vit of about 120. A lvl 99 Galka pld/mnk would have a 104 vit. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that buffaloes can maybe have a bonus that pushes them up a bit beyond that (or maybe count the full level of the subjob instead of only half? don't remember the exact method for mobs right now). Obviously you'll need a set of data with a 1.0 spike to tell for sure.

    Still, that doesn't match what I'd predict for the minimum, which would be ~10.5 (floored to 10) on a d71 base damage. 11 would be the minimum with 524 defense (.515 cRatio). That would still yield a 71 min crit damage value.


    Also of interest is that the max pDif appears to support that you're still hitting 1.0 as a max (possibly slightly below, but very close). This is in contrast to the data Byrth has gotten so far, which had implied a max of about +0.4375, whereas yours implies a max of at least +0.485. So there's probably another sloped equation on the max pDif side to work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune
    EDIT: there are also 2 other parses i did on Steelshells lvl73/74 with ironRamLance Attack264 (so cRatios 0.746 and 0.733). Check the xls.
    I'll look for that when I get home.

  12. #92
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    I've heard Buffalos are PLD, which grants them critical defense bonus. I haven't heard any confirmations otherwise, but if that is true, that would be worth noting.

  13. #93
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    I've heard Buffalos are PLD, which grants them critical defense bonus. I haven't heard any confirmations otherwise, but if that is true, that would be worth noting.
    Ugh, yeah. That has the potential to screw with some of the calculations. Thanks for bringing that up.

  14. #94
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune
    EDIT: there are also 2 other parses i did on Steelshells lvl73/74 with ironRamLance Attack264 (so cRatios 0.746 and 0.733). Check the xls. The crit samples are very low tough to be exploitable.
    What is important to note tough from those 2 parses is that despite low sample i hit for 0s and a lot, while on bluffalos with much lower cRatio i hit for 11 grand minimum... New cap? I doubt since if there were a "hard cap" there would be frequency spike, which isnot the case currently so far...
    Sorry, am unable to find any Iron Ram Lance data in the spreadsheet.


    And in addition:

    Rather than keep bugging you about details, did a quick check of EM bluffalos in Aby-Uleg.

    516 att vs EM: neutral defense
    515 att vs EM: high defense

    Mob Defense: 516

    Att: 270

    cRatio: 0.5233 (or 0.5225 if floored /1024 units)


    Predicted minimum damage:
    0.5233 * 1.15 - 0.4375 = 0.164295
    0.164295 * 71 = 11.664945, floored to 11 -- match (and would match for base damage up to 73)

    Min crit would be predicted to be 72, but with Crit Defense Bonus we can't consider that reliable.

    Putting off any analysis of max pDif for now.

  15. #95
    Chram
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    Testing for vit:

    651 att so that min damage is 1.0 pDif
    Using a pair of Thokchas, d47 daggers

    111 str: min damage is 47, so fStr is 0

    112 str: min damage is 47, so fStr is 0

    113 str: min damage is 48, so fStr is 1

    dStr to pass threshhold for 1 fStr on rank 5 weapon: -5

    So 113 + 5 = 118 Vit

    Edit: bad math....

  16. #96
    Masamune
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    o god thanks Yugl, i forgot about that trait against crit dmg... well despite that + their paralyze that can cancel my defender, Bluffalos + crit atmas are still best test subjects imho.

    Yes Motenten, i intended to check for their def this morning but you went faster, thanks. For their vit, yes i intend to use my planned pDIF=1 parse.

    Regarding the 2 IRL parses i mentioned, sorry i thought they were on the v1.1 xls, but actually they newer. I'll post an updated xls soon...
    Also, while normalizing my graphs, i noticed spike freq intensity varies depending what weapon d used: the lower d is, for given sample size and cRatio, the higher the spike intensity will be.
    Example: 2 parses around pDIF=1, 1st with a cudgel and other with great sword, the spike for cudgel will fly really fast at 15% + probability of appearance compared to other generated pDIFs, while on the GS parse, at same sample size.... spike will be barely noticeable or much less intensity.
    If you are wondering why i'm posting this, it's because i'm trying to figure at which cRatio spike has highest intensity so can know this cRatio is when the whole range*generator term reset the most values to 0.

    Byrth: can you post your parse please ? I'm interested.

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    Both tests use Raph Rod

    Level 81 Colibri x3 with 128 attack, 105 STR, and 11% Crit damage bonus:
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    0: 4
    1: 6
    2: 8
    3: 6
    4: 5
    5: 5
    6: 5
    7: 6
    8: 12
    9: 8
    10: 8
    11: 6
    12: 6
    13: 5
    14: 8
    15: 9
    16: 12
    17: 8
    18: 1
    19: 9
    20: 2
    21: 6
    22: 18
    23: 7
    ^ 24: 11
    25: 6
    26: 8
    27: 9
    28: 8
    29: 3
    30: 9
    31: 9
    32: 5
    + 33: 19
    34: 9
    35: 12
    36: 12
    37: 7
    38: 6
    39: 7
    40: 10
    41: 7
    42: 11
    43: 7
    44: 8
    45: 3
    Melee Crits
    55: 6
    56: 3
    + 57: 7
    58: 2
    59: 4
    61: 2
    63: 2
    64: 4
    65: 1
    66: 4
    69: 3
    71: 1
    ^ 72: 3
    73: 4
    74: 2
    75: 1
    76: 2
    77: 2
    78: 2
    79: 2
    81: 1
    83: 4
    84: 1
    85: 2
    86: 3
    88: 4
    91: 1
    93: 2
    94: 2
    95: 2
    96: 2
    98: 1
    99: 1


    Level 82 Colibri with 128 attack, 105 STR, and 11% Crit damage bonus:
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    0: 1
    + 1: 7
    2: 1
    3: 4
    4: 1
    5: 6
    6: 1
    8: 3
    9: 2
    10: 3
    11: 4
    12: 1
    13: 2
    14: 3
    15: 1
    16: 3
    17: 4
    18: 2
    21: 2
    22: 2
    23: 1
    ^ 24: 1
    25: 1
    26: 3
    27: 1
    28: 4
    29: 1
    30: 1
    31: 5
    32: 2
    33: 5
    34: 3
    35: 2
    36: 3
    37: 4
    38: 3
    39: 1
    40: 1
    41: 5
    42: 2
    43: 1
    44: 5
    Melee Crits
    55: 2
    + 57: 5
    61: 1
    63: 1
    64: 2
    66: 1
    68: 1
    73: 1
    ^ 74: 3
    75: 1
    81: 2
    82: 1
    83: 1
    84: 1
    85: 1
    87: 1
    89: 1
    91: 1
    92: 2
    93: 1
    94: 1
    95: 1
    96: 1



    Two Level 81 Colibri with 54 Attack, 93 STR, 16% Crit damage bonus (Trait + Feather):
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    + 0: 73
    1: 3
    2: 2
    3: 8
    4: 5
    5: 3
    6: 3
    7: 2
    ^ 8: 8
    9: 5
    10: 3
    11: 3
    12: 5
    13: 8
    14: 6
    15: 4
    16: 2
    17: 7
    18: 2
    19: 4
    20: 1
    21: 2
    22: 5
    23: 10
    24: 3
    25: 9
    26: 3
    27: 3
    28: 4
    29: 5
    Melee Crits
    51: 2
    52: 2
    53: 2
    54: 3
    + 55: 7
    56: 4
    ^ 57: 1
    58: 1
    60: 1
    63: 2
    64: 1
    66: 1
    68: 1
    69: 1
    70: 1
    73: 3
    74: 1
    75: 1
    76: 2
    77: 2
    80: 1
    82: 1




    Byrth
    Melee
    + 0: 68
    1: 4
    2: 9
    3: 8
    4: 7
    ^ 5: 4
    6: 6
    7: 4
    8: 7
    9: 4
    10: 2
    11: 5
    12: 3
    13: 5
    14: 7
    15: 3
    16: 6
    17: 3
    18: 4
    19: 5
    20: 2
    21: 4
    22: 4
    23: 5
    24: 3
    25: 6
    26: 3
    27: 2
    28: 4
    29: 1
    Melee Crits
    48: 1
    51: 1
    52: 2
    54: 5
    55: 5
    + 56: 8
    58: 1
    ^ 59: 3
    62: 1
    63: 2
    64: 1
    66: 3
    67: 2
    68: 2
    70: 3
    73: 1
    74: 1
    75: 3
    76: 1
    77: 1
    78: 1
    80: 1


    Level 82 Colibri with 54 attack, 93 STR, and 16% Crit damage bonus:
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    + 0: 39
    1: 6
    2: 3
    3: 3
    4: 4
    5: 5
    7: 2
    8: 4
    9: 2
    10: 4
    11: 1
    ^ 12: 8
    13: 2
    14: 3
    15: 4
    16: 5
    17: 3
    18: 5
    19: 5
    20: 5
    22: 6
    23: 8
    24: 4
    25: 8
    27: 7
    28: 2
    29: 4
    Melee Crits
    48: 1
    53: 1
    54: 2
    55: 10
    +^ 56: 14
    58: 1
    59: 2
    60: 2
    61: 1
    62: 1
    63: 2
    64: 1
    66: 1
    68: 1
    69: 1
    70: 1
    71: 1
    73: 2
    74: 1
    75: 1
    77: 1
    78: 2
    81: 1

  18. #98
    Masamune
    Guest

    O.O how can you get that low attack ?

    Also kinda low sample size :s

  19. #99
    BG Content
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    Lakshmi
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    DNC doesn't have club skill. For the 54 sample, I did DNC/DNC with no attack gear (just a little STR). For the 128 sample, I did DNC/11PLD and put on some attack gear.

    And yeah, it's a low sample size. It takes me an hour per bird at really low attack, though. 20% hit rate and many of my hits are for zero, haha.

  20. #100
    Masamune
    Guest

    Got same hitrate problem, me too.... i was at about 45% on 1st Bluffalo, so added some accu gears to bump it to 70% :S

    To get a rough idea when sample size start to become decent is to check if current parse results fulfill the 2 conditions :
    - about 10 frequency minimum per parsed damage value
    - not a single missing damage value
    ... especially on crits outside Abyssea.

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