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Thread: pDif and damage     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #101
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    I can't get off the Acc floor with such low skill. Also, unless I'm missing something, we're looking for this data to potentially break our model because it is so far out of the realm of any data that we have. The above parses show a 1.0 frequency spike in the crit distribution (54~56) as we would predict but (as far as I know) had no confirmation of.

    Level 81 Greater Colibri x3, 129 Attack, 106 STR (11% Crit damage bonus):
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    1: 5
    2: 6
    3: 9
    4: 8
    5: 2
    6: 7
    7: 10
    8: 10
    9: 4
    10: 7
    + 11: 12
    12: 3
    13: 5
    14: 8
    15: 11
    16: 5
    18: 4
    19: 7
    21: 5
    ^ 22: 10
    23: 6
    24: 4
    25: 7
    26: 5
    27: 3
    28: 7
    29: 5
    30: 7
    31: 2
    32: 2
    33: 6
    34: 8
    35: 6
    36: 9
    37: 6
    38: 3
    39: 3
    40: 2
    41: 6
    42: 3
    43: 10
    44: 6
    45: 3
    46: 2
    Melee Crits
    + 55: 9
    56: 5
    57: 6
    58: 4
    59: 2
    61: 4
    63: 4
    64: 2
    65: 2
    66: 4
    68: 1
    69: 1
    71: 2
    73: 3
    74: 3
    75: 4
    ^ 76: 5
    77: 3
    78: 2
    79: 1
    81: 4
    82: 1
    83: 6
    84: 2
    85: 4
    86: 6
    87: 1
    89: 1
    91: 7
    92: 3
    93: 5
    94: 4
    95: 3
    96: 1
    97: 1
    98: 1


    Level 82 Greater Colibri, 129 attack, 106 STR (11% Crit damage bonus)
    Spoiler: show
    Byrth
    Melee
    1: 2
    2: 2
    3: 2
    4: 1
    5: 1
    6: 4
    7: 1
    8: 1
    9: 4
    10: 1
    11: 1
    12: 3
    13: 1
    14: 2
    15: 2
    16: 1
    17: 3
    18: 1
    19: 3
    20: 1
    21: 1
    22: 4
    23: 2
    25: 3
    ^ 26: 3
    27: 2
    28: 3
    29: 3
    30: 3
    31: 2
    32: 3
    33: 1
    + 34: 5
    35: 1
    + 36: 5
    37: 3
    38: 3
    39: 3
    40: 2
    41: 2
    42: 1
    43: 4
    Melee Crits
    56: 2
    + 57: 3
    59: 1
    63: 1
    67: 1
    69: 1
    71: 1
    72: 2
    73: 1
    74: 2
    75: 2
    ^ 76: 1
    78: 2
    79: 1
    82: 1
    83: 1
    84: 2
    87: 1
    88: 1
    89: 1
    92: 2
    93: 1
    94: 2
    99: 1


    Motenten's working model predicts that 128 Attack is the highest value where you can still hit for 0. These last two sets have shown hits for 0 at 128 attack but not at 129. It took approximately five hours of afking to collect the data.

    Now it is nighttime and I want to do something!

  2. #102
    Chram
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    Ah, good to know. To illustrate, current model for min pDif below 1.0 should result in:

    Weapon: d40
    Str: 105-106
    fStr: 10
    BD: 40+10 = 50

    wRatio * 1.15 - 0.4375
    or, in /1024 units:
    wRatio * (1 + 153/1024) - 448/1024

    For the lvl 81 birds (3 samples in each config)

    wRatio at 128 is 128/322 = 0.3975
    or, if flooring with /1024 units:
    128*1024/322 = 407/1024 = 0.3974609375

    wRatio at 129 is 129/322 = 0.4006
    or, if flooring with /1024 units:
    129*1024/322 = 410/1024 = 0.400390625


    Possible min pDifs for 128 att (using varying calculation steps):
    (128/322) * 1.15 - 0.4375 = 0.01964
    (407/1024) * 1.15 - 0.4375 = 0.01958
    (128/322) * (1 + 153/1024) - 448/1024 = 19/1024
    (407/1024) * (1 + 153/1024) - 448/1024 = 19/1024

    Which, for BD 50 yields:
    50 * 0.01964 = 0.9820 => 0
    50 * 0.01958 = 0.9790 => 0
    50 * 19/1024 = 0.9277 => 0


    Possible min pDifs for 129 att:
    (129/322) * 1.15 - 0.4375 = 0.02321
    (410/1024) * 1.15 - 0.4375 = 0.02295
    (129/322) * (1 + 153/1024) - 448/1024 = 23/1024
    (410/1024) * (1 + 153/1024) - 448/1024 = 23/1024

    Which, for BD 50 yields:
    50 * 0.02321 = 1.1605 => 1
    50 * 0.02295 = 1.1475 => 1
    50 * 23/1024 = 1.1230 => 1


    I used multiple calculation types to show where flooring can cause a loss from the 'ideal' result, however in all cases the final floored value matched what was observed.


    Using this model, you actually 'hit' 0 at 390/1024 attack ratio (0.3809), however you'll start seeing 0 slightly above that, with the threshold depending on the damage rating of the weapon. EG: anything below 0.4150 for a d25 weapon, or below 0.3877 for a d125 weapon. A usable general rough estimate would be that you can hit 0 at 0.4 wRatio and below.

  3. #103
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    max pDif estimates.


    The secondary randomizer makes this estimate annoying, but will try to make a rough guess based on what we have.

    Using the lvl 81 target sets since they all have more samples. Getting up to 5 of each bird level for each attack config would be nice.

    @54 att
    cRatio = 0.1677 (or 171/1024)
    max observed: 29
    lowest primary: 28

    @128 att
    cRatio = 0.3975 (or 407/1024)
    max observed: 45
    lowest primary: 43

    @129 att
    cRatio = 0.4006 (or 410/1024)
    max observed: 46
    lowest primary: 44


    Assuming the values are valid, this generates a slope between 29% and 37%. It also requires an offset.

    An offset between 0.33 and 0.365 is feasible. Will choose an offset of 360/1024 for now (0.3515625).

    That would require a multiplier between 32.0% and 32.9%. Will choose 32% for now.

    So, v2.0 max pDif = wRatio * 1.32 + 360/1024

    At what point would that allow the max pDif to hit 1.0?

    504/1024 = 0.4922 wRatio

    Very close to the presumed 0.5 lower limit for 1.0 max pDif. That would also mean Masa's IRL buffalo data should be hitting 1.0 at the top end. Initial estimates indicates that that was possible (assuming BD=71, and secondary multiplier not going above 1.042 for the observed sample set), but a larger data set is needed to see if it's hitting absolute max.

    This would also mean that at 0.75 wRatio (a commonly referenced inflection point), the multiplier for max pDif would put it at 0.99 (not counting the offset).

    If I backtrack based on that and choose a 33% multiplier (putting total multiplied value at 0.75 wRatio at 0.9975), the offset needed would need to be between 0.348 and 0.351.

    Adjusting to that for the moment, then.

    v2.1 max pDif = wRatio * 1.33 + 0.35 [~358/1024]

    That would also place the lowest wRatio that could hit 1.0 at 500/1024 = 0.4883

  4. #104
    Masamune
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    need more sample size for my 0.523 IRL parse ? (currently standing @ 628normal/755crits)

    also, i'm hesitating which cRatio i should parse next :
    - cRatio=0.752 (388Attack on EM)
    - cRatio=0.7447 (388Attack on T)
    - cRatio=1 (516Attack on EM)

    I were thinking also about Olyphants at Abyssea-Uleg, i think they arenot PLD but WAR right ? might be better to parse on them instead of Bluffalos because of their unknown critdefbonus? Nvm... Olyphant has some Barrier Def TPmove that would make parses much annoying to filter than on Bluffalos...

    Last question is How to determine PLD critdefbonus to "save" all those crits i just parsed...

  5. #105
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    Once we have an accurate model of pDIF, we can simply divide by what they should have been and find out what crit defense bonus is.

  6. #106
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    628 hits sounds like enough to work with for now, so go ahead and post those data points.

    I'd say the 0.752 config is probably the best next option.

    If you can get the proper cRatio on them, go ahead on the olyphants. However their defense is probably in the ~440 range (at a guess, just dropping the pld Defense Bonus and a few points of vit), so you'd have to use the Defender trick again to get down below ~0.8.

    However, would also be useful to know the effect of the crit defense bonus, so may want to stay on bluffalo regardless.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Once we have an accurate model of pDIF, we can simply divide by what they should have been and find out what crit defense bonus is.
    Don't even really need to do that. Just get into the 3.0-3.15 cap range on a job up to snuff on Attack (read: DRK, lolSig) and work from there. I could turn out some relevant data if asked, and perhaps even get a good grasp of how it interacts with critical attack bonus (separate multipliers or additive first).

    With your VIT figure I only need 170 STR to cap fSTR for my standard 76 base damage and easy comparison to my G.Colibri crit data. Handy. 1161 attack to cap Ratio? Challenge accepted.

  8. #108
    Masamune
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    huh? can't go past attack999 ?

    if want capped cRatio i would just go on Uleg King Buffalos lvl79-82 (since crit def bonus is PLD79).

  9. #109
    Chram
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    Attack can go higher, the game just doesn't display it. But yeah, regular Uleg buffalos would probly be easier to manage.

    Edit: Caveat -- we don't know if there are multiple tiers of the trait, like crit attack bonus, though, so just stick with the challenge of the 99's

  10. #110
    Masamune
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    where is the proof Attack can go higher than displayed 999 ?

  11. #111
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  12. #112
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    Ahemm.... all i'm reading is that attack AFTER Yuki/Gekko/Kasha innate attack boost can go above 999... that's not the same at all than basic attack yu have just from STR and attack gears. Maybe atmas can push attack above 999 too but i dunno...
    Also he didnot say on which steelshellS he did that test...
    Honest i don't buy it.

  13. #113
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    Well, there are plenty of Dark Knights who sub Warrior and disagree with you. It's purely a display limitation.

    Also, those tests show that the game has no issue at all working with Attack values over 999, at least. His findings were either replicated or preceded by similar JP findings.

  14. #114
    Masamune
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    Yea it's the kind of test i d expect for this :
    Find a mob with def 600(for example), parse enough sample size with attack850+Berserk(so theoritically Attack should be 1062 if not floored @ 999)
    Then, if the hypothesis is correct, parse should show maxs and mins corresponding to cRatio=1062/600=1.77, otherwise parse will show min/max of cRatio=999/600=1.665

    prob to do so yu need the pdif formula... Yarko tested after the pdif revamps so...

  15. #115
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    It's been fairly apparent to 90% of DRKs since Heroes was added and Bluffalo became our favorite e-peen pubstomp parse mobs (because everyone else would WS for ~600, tops, and the aforementioned critical defense bonus soft-nerfing crit jobs); attack certainly does not cap at 999 in much the same way a PLD/BLU was shown to not hit a cap on defense at 999 either. That I can still drop a nigh 5k Reso on these Bluffalo with proper atma and Last Resort up is proof enough of that.

    Seriously, attack capping at 999 would just be silly. This game was, purportedly in some olde interview, originally balanced to go to level 200+ (if just in scope of stat progression).

    This is why I have this silly signature, because one-handers are clueless and think >800 attack is rare (which is LR alone on DRK). Consider that my 2.25 2-hander Ratio cap testing was on level 82 Colibri with no buffs, just some raw attack pieces normally in my WS sets. Throw a decent DRK their namesake Chaos Roll and they can push 1500 attack in their WS set, easy. It's almost a farce that the job tied to Chaos Roll almost never needs it.

  16. #116
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    I thought SE said crit def bonus was only a player trait? Also unrelated, but did you ever confirm resolution having a chance to DA/TA off of all hits?

  17. #117
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    You may be right, but I think you're remembering the part about VIT affecting critical hit rate.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkmagi View Post
    I thought SE said crit def bonus was only a player trait? Also unrelated, but did you ever confirm resolution having a chance to DA/TA off of all hits?
    What Yugi said. You're remembering the part about VIT not affecting player crits, just mob crits, but the test is worth doing anyway just to see how CDB and CAB interact.

    Pretty solid that Reso/Entropy don't run DA/TA chance on all hits once I tacked down a few variables and paid better attention to TP returns, namely that a three hit entropy was giving me 20tp while a four hit was giving me 22tp due to decimals. It was a fun speculation anyway, but would have been painfully more obvious.

  19. #119
    Masamune
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    Ok thanks for confirming Attack Bonus from a buff/WSbonus/TempItem can go over 999. (still no proof about base attack - just with STR and attack gears - can go over 999)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl
    VIT not affecting player crits
    Damn i completely forgot this, any tests done on this?
    Does this mean if a crit is rolled, mob's VIT =0 in fSTR ?

  20. #120
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    No, it means that VIT affects Monster -> Player critical hits differently than before. It is probably something similar to dAGI, but you would have to let a monster hit you for a long time for a substantial amount of damage/hit with different VIT values (keeping defense constant) in order to find out.

    I have considered testing it in the past, but all-in-all I feel it's not really justified considering monsters have like a 1% critical hit rate on a player with 4/5 Enemy Crit -% merits.

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