Random Facts Thread: Magic

[Sechs]

I'm looking for more info about how resist rate work on Debuffs to explain a strange thing that's been happening to me.
Lately I've been messing around with BRD/BLM on Vinipata and Albumen to get an additional tool to sleep adds (Elemental Seal).
I've never seen a resist in my Lullabies with Elemental Seal up, yet sometimes (not 100%, but not rarely either) one add wakes up before the supposed wake up time, before the other adds.
To sum up:

1) It doesn't happen all of the times, but I've seen it happen somewhat consistently
2) Never seen something like this happen with Troubadour lullabies
3) When it happens, it's always on a single add
4) When it happened on Albumen yesterday, one add woke up a bit less than 1 minute before it should (according to my timer and to the other adds) Approx ~30% less duration (my EleSeal sleeps should be a bit over 3 mins)


So... how do we explain this? Thanks for any sort of input.

[CDF]

Half resist?

[Sechs]

I dunno. Half resist should've been 50% duration, whereas here we're talking about something a bit less than 1/3 duration.
Altough it could be that some of the bonuses to duration aren't subject to resistance reduction (JPs and Marcato bonus, to name two).
I dunno, this is giving me a headache, it looks very strange to me

[Damane]

I dunno. Half resist should've been 50% duration, whereas here we're talking about something a bit less than 1/3 duration.
Altough it could be that some of the bonuses to duration aren't subject to resistance reduction (JPs and Marcato bonus, to name two).
I dunno, this is giving me a headache, it looks very strange to me

maybe the duration bonuses are applied after the resist timer is applied? so it was a 1/4 resist? and teh duration bonus pushed it afterwards to 1/3?

[Lyramion]

Got JP blog testing the effects of positive and negative dINT it looks like:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/


From what I understand:

INT1=魔命1 （INT差-10～+10間）

INT2=魔命1 （INT差-11～-30、+11～+30間）

INT4=魔命1 （INT差-31～-70、+31～+70間）

+/- 10 INT >>> 1 INT = 1 MACC
+/- 11 INT to 30 INT >>> 2 INT = 1 MACC
+/- 31 INT >>> 4 INT = 1 MACC

[dasva]

Well that's rather interesting if true. Having an extra tier of dint isn't all that crazy but the idea that it's + or - is way different than what we thought before

[CDF]

I see at least results for positive dINT at least. (What about negative dINT or was this extrapolation?) Definitely props for showing this as well as contradicting SE's own statements on magic accuracy skill on weapons.

[Sechs]

If those values are real (and I see no reason why they shouldn't) then I have to say the tiers/thresholds are much smaller than I always assumed them to be.
I guess it's safe to assume similar values for MND and CHR as well, respectively for white magic debuffs and songs?

STAT is, as always, a powerful instrument to improve the landing rate of your debuffs if you stay within the sweet tier. Problem is that it's hard to evaluate each target's INT/MND/CHR values, making builds focusing on macc more reliable on average?
But even without numbers I think we've always known this, at least it's the way I always reasoned within my mind.

[Damane]

while this is interesting. Spells have their own base macc balue and i wouldnt be surprised if some also have different tier threshold. This part of the reason why Dev Team isnt implenting a pure macc check. I mean Dex doesnt check against AGI to evaluate how much acc DEX gives


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[CDF]

I noticed this summary of magic burst changes for post-March 2015 update (http://blog.livedoor.jp/luteff11/archives/44158594.html). It seems to match up with what was discussed in the past (re: finding out Mujin Band bonus is "magic burst bonus II" before they changed the help text) though there are some rounding errors

Of course there is no zero-step skill chain, so with one step, the "base" MB damage multiplier is 1.35

Below numbers obtained from Blanched Mandragora in Ceizak (INT 90?), INT 302, MAB 300, magic damage 250, magic burst bonus total 15 (9 from job trait for SCH, 6 from SCH job gifts)

				Obs. damage ratio	Dividing out 1.15 MBB	Subtracting 1.35
thunder		1740	5696	3.273563218		2.846576712		1.496576712
blizzard	1720	5632	3.274418605		2.847320526		1.497320526
fire		1700	5568	3.275294118		2.848081841		1.498081841
aero		1680	5504	3.276190476		2.848861284		1.498861284
water		1660	4196	2.527710843		2.198009429		0.848009429
stone		1640	4148	2.529268293		2.199363733		0.849363733

Of note is that water and earth element would be classified as having a "normal" bonus (add 0.85 to 1.35) instead of the "low resistance" bonus (add 1.5 to 1.35) in the table shown on the blog post.

Also as expected, there is no bonus for helices... 1953 damage (under Dark Arts with +24 base damage and 5/5 merits), 3027 MB. 3027/1953 = 1.55. 1.55/1.15 = 1.347 (close to 1.35 base MB damage multiplier)

[CDF]

Just tested this at 500 dark magic skill.

Rubicundity		 20
Rubicundity		 20
Striga Crown		 13
Hirudinea Earring	  3
Helios Jacket		 10
Merlinic Dastanas	  9
Evanescence Ring	 10
Excelsis Ring		  5
Fucho-no-obi		  8
Merlinic Shalwar	  9
Merlinic Crackows	 17
---------------------------
Total			124

At 500 dark magic skill, the base range of Aspir I is 100 to 200, so the the expected Aspir I max with all of the above bonuses is 200(2.24) = 448 and minimum is 224. I got 443 MP (not truncated of course) on a single cast on a Stone Eater in North Gustaberg (S). The next cast I got 230 MP (lucky me...).

That's enough to convince me that there is no observable cap if it even exists (can rule out +50 cap or not being able to get +40 from dual-wielding Rubicundity x2).

We can get up to +130 total from currently available equipment with +11 on 4 of 5 Merlinic pieces).

[Seol]

Just a random question, I didn't honestly know where to ask, but Frazzle and Distract III are enfeeble skill based (and mind, but that has nothing to do with the my question), and cap @610 according to their corresponding Wiki pages. Frazzle III's page has this link at the bottom (https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/11...=1#post6503005) the translated notes from Kincard say Distract III caps @610, but Frazzle III @625. So Frazzle III caps at 610 or 625?

[CDF]

It's what they claim... but they have been shown to be wrong before (re: magic accuracy skill on weapons)

Japanese post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post558735

Interestingly it says the effect of dMND on Frazzle (for all 3 tiers) ranges from 0 magic evasion reduction at dMND = 0 to -10 at dMND = 100. I wonder if the descriptions were changed afterward

[CDF]

This is a follow up to the post above.

These findings seem to corroborate known MB potency bonuses based on elemental resistances (+0 observed for helices, and +0.15, +0.40, +0.85, +1.15, and +1.50 observed for other direct-damage spells).

There is no obvious trend. For example, one might expect chapuli to have higher resistance against Aero and Stone (only +0.40 bonus), but why would it have only a +0.85 bonus against Fire?

Acuex take a 1.5x damage increase from Fire and Blizzard (and damage is decreased by a factor of 0.75x for all other spells), but the MB bonus is +0.85 for Blizzard versus +1.5 for Fire.

And then for worms, only a +0.40 MB bonus would be expected for Stone, but why is there only a +0.85 MB bonus for darkness elemental magic? (In this case, SCH has access only to Impact; helices and Kaustra don't receive a MB bonus enhancement aside from # of skillchains.)

Metalcruncher worm observed INT
292 (level 124)
301 (level 125)
312 (level 126)

				Normal		MB	Damage ratio	MB bonus (1.35 + X)
Mandragora	thunder		1740		5696	3.273563218	1.496576712
dINT > 100	blizzard	1720		5632	3.274418605	1.497320526
MAB 300		fire		1700		5568	3.275294118	1.498081841
MDMG 250	aero		1680		5504	3.276190476	1.498861284
MBD +15		water		1660		4196	2.527710843	0.848009429
		stone		1640		4148	2.529268293	0.849363733
		impact		5693		18656	3.277006851	1.499571174
		helix		1953		3027	1.549923195	-0.0022407
										
Chapuli		thunder		1740		5696	3.273563218	1.496576712
dINT > 100	blizzard	1720		5632	3.274418605	1.497320526
MAB 300		fire		1700		4300	2.529411765	0.849488491
MDMG 250	aero		1680		3380	2.011904762	0.399482402
MBD +15		water		1660		5436	3.274698795	1.49756417
		stone		1640		3296	2.009756098	0.397613998
										
Uragnite	thunder		435		1424	3.273563218	1.496576712
dINT > 100	blizzard	430		1236	2.874418605	1.149494439
MAB 300		fire		425		732	1.722352941	0.14769821
MDMG 250	aero		420		1207	2.873809524	1.148964803
MBD +15		water		415		715	1.722891566	0.148166579
		stone		410		1178	2.873170732	1.148409332
										
Acuex		thunder		1302		4200	3.225806452	1.455049088
dINT > 100	blizzard	2580		6522	2.527906977	0.84817998
MAB 300		fire		2550		8352	3.275294118	1.498081841
MDMG 250	aero		1260		4056	3.219047619	1.449171843
MBD +15		water		1242		1920	1.54589372	-0.005744591
		stone		1230		1902	1.546341463	-0.005355249
										
Umbril		thunder		1519		4900	3.225806452	1.455049088
dINT > 100	blizzard	1505		4844	3.218604651	1.448786653
MAB 300		fire		2975		9744	3.275294118	1.498081841
MDMG 250	aero		1470		4732	3.219047619	1.449171843
MBD +15		water		1449		4676	3.22705314	1.456133165
		stone		2870		7259	2.529268293	0.849363733
										
Worm (lv126)	thunder		1755		6900	3.931623932	1.499002849
dINT 16		blizzard	1695		6665	3.932153392	1.499386516
MAB 400		fire		1635		6420	3.926605505	1.495366308
MDMG 250	aero		1575		6185	3.926984127	1.495640672
MBD +38		water		1515		5950	3.927392739	1.495936768
		stone*		1485		3595	2.420875421	0.404257551
		impact		4634		13554	2.924902892	0.849175107
		*Akademos

[fantasticdan]

Resists and multipliers don't necessarily line up. Acuex can take 50% increased damage from fire/ice (dark/light as well iirc), but that doesn't mean their elemental resists (and thus MB bonus) for those elements are all the same.

[dasva]

So was looking up banish effect on bgwiki and a lot of the examples given on how it works seem weird... like the math wont work as written (though I think that's because they missed subtracting the modifier by 1). But the one example with the gear is all kinds of not sure how they got their answer. Can anyone figure it out or did they just mess up the math. Also one example seems to make it seem like slashing bonus to hounds is increased but quick testing shows it's not and that they misstate the bonus to begin with (only 12.5%)

Anyways given we have actual number amounts on gear now and that gear number is weird wonder if anyone knows more current values. Kind of wondering if you can turn the penalty into a bonus with enough since you can get ridiculously huge amounts and even with no gear banish III was dang near 100%

[CDF]

The Banish line is supposed to work like Tomahawk. The example with Banish + Fenian Ring should be (1-.50(1-(.50+.05))) = .775. The first .50 corresponds to piercing damage reduction. The next .50 corresponds to the special defense reduction of Banish (50%). The .05 term corresponds to the additional effect of Fenian Ring (+5%) on the special defense reduction.

Cleric's Mitts => 5%
Cleric's Mitts +2 => 10%
Piety Mitts => 15% (explicitly stated as +15 on the help text)
Piety's Mitts +1 => 20%

100% reduction of the special defense eliminates the damage reduction entirely so you can't get a bonus.

The slashing bonus should not be decreased by Banish either... wonder where they got that from.

[dasva]

Ah yeah I got the gist it's just the examples of how the math worked on bg wiki were horribly botched and while I could figure out what they did (or should've done) with the just banish ones the example with gear was crazy weird. Plus they had some weird other stuff for gear like subtracting 1/8 or something lol. And even then the answer didn't fit the equation/numbers they had in the example. Yours makes way more sense.

Kind of curious why they have such high values on banish gear then. I mean just nq relic mitts should make banish III 100% and based on your numbers should be able to get +80. Guess maybe it's like reward where they continue to add things with like 30 on it when you can already get almost triple the cap

[CDF]

You could max out Banish I, which starts at 50%. You just have to spam it more frequently in the event you need the effect to last > 15 s

[CDF]

In case anyone was wondering, the "magic damage bonus" job point category for BLM refers to the magic damage statistic so you get an additional +20 points to elemental magic base damage at 20/20.

The "magic damage" description for the SCH job gift "Stratagem Effect III" ("Increases magic damage of spells tied to either Light Arts when Rapture activates, or Dark Arts when Ebullience activates.") is also referring to the magic damage statistic, so you get +40 points to elemental magic base damage at 20/20.

I only mention this because in the past the descriptions for merit points were misleading, like "magic potency" for BLM group 1 actually referring to MAB and "magic attack" for SCH helix group 1 actually referring to a % damage increase instead of MAB.