WS Damage Testing

**Churchill** · 2012-04-22 21:20

Supposed to be 2.25, which is why I figured I fucked something up in the equation when the first 10 WS I did were higher damage.

**diasetsu** · 2012-04-22 21:49

That's cRatio @ 2.25, pDif should fluctuate somewhere from 1.6-2.6 @ 2.25cRatio, but don't know exact numbers.

**Churchill** · 2012-04-22 23:37

derp

Well assuming

Normal pDIF Max:
Maximum Normal pDIF = 1.019 × cRatio + 0.485
2.77775

Going by that, your max would have been 2511 on Final Heaven for the damage to apply to all hits, which it was.

154 Base damage+85WSC= 239
25fSTR
2.25*1.019+0.485= 2.77775pDIF
2.75fTP+0.2fTP from gorgets= 2.95fTP
+10WSDMG= 1.10
Relic Bonus= 1.25

Single hit max
fl(fl(fl(fl((239+25)*2.77775)*2.95)*1.10)*1.25)=2972

Additional hit max w/relic bonus
fl(fl((239+25)*2.77775)*1.25)=916

Any attack over 3888 indicates Ogier's/Phorcys applies to all hits

Highest 1hit Cata:2873
Highest 2hit Cata: 3719

Unless, again, I suck at math, I didn't even reach expected damage. Will try the other test later.

La Theine rabbits, attack was always 1189 or higher requiring a DEF of 528 to uncap me, which I doubt that they are.

Code:

Weaponskills
    Catastrophe
       2093:    1
       2098:    1
       2128:    2
       2131:    2
       2140:    1
       2191:    1
       2207:    1
       2218:    2
       2241:    2
       2256:    1
+      2258:    3
       2260:    2
       2290:    2
       2303:    1
       2315:    2
       2390:    1
+      2403:    3
       2422:    1
       2438:    1
       2442:    2
       2450:    2
       2476:    1
       2485:    2
       2510:    2
       2553:    1
 ^     2585:    1
+      2592:    3
       2627:    2
       2630:    1
       2646:    1
       2676:    2
       2708:    1
       2822:    1
       2826:    1
       2840:    1
       2850:    1
       2857:    2
       2873:    1
       2924:    1
       3062:    1
       3137:    2
       3169:    1
       3194:    2
       3216:    1
       3305:    2
       3316:    1
       3334:    1
       3365:    2
       3429:    2
       3458:    2
       3577:    1
       3690:    2
       3719:    1

**Churchill** · 2012-04-23 02:12

EM Bluffalo
Level 99: 516 defense, 118 Vitality

Weapon+WSC: 249
fSTR: 25
Attack: 566
pDIF: ?
fTP: 2.95
WSDMG: 1.10
Relic: 1.25

Did a DA Cata for 1292 on an EM Bluffalo with the above stats, I'm not sure what pdif ratio to use. Spent an hour doing Cata's with 744 attack and had a few 1-hit Cata's do lower damage than what I was using for minimum pDIF, so I'm assuming I did that portion wrong. Did ~30m of 566 attack (using Defender) and got the 1292 was was the absolute lowest I saw a DA Cata do. Lowest 1-hit Cata was 1133 w/out Defender (744 attack)

**Motenten** · 2012-04-23 10:32

Originally Posted by diasetsu

I am not quite sure on the exact pDif cap for 1-handers so went with 2.5 for my estimates.

Max cRatio: 2.0
Max pDif: 2.375
Max pDif+secondary randomizer: 2.49375 (slightly less than this, though, due to flooring after Max pDif value)

118 weapon from damage +75 damage from WSC= 193 Weapon Skill Damage.

Max damage on first hit:
193 * 3 = 579
579 * 2.375 = 1,375.125 >> 1375
1375 * 1.05 = 1,443.75 >> 1443
1443 * 1.4 = 2,020.2 >> 2020

== 2020

Max damage on second hit:
193 * 2.375 = 458.375 >> 458
458 * 1.05 = 480.9 >> 480

== 480 if no bonus

480 * 1.4 = 672

== 672 if bonus applies

~

Min pDif at 2.0 cRatio: 1.569

Min damage on first hit:
193 * 3 = 579
579 * 1.569 = 908.451 >> 908
908 * 1.4 = 1,271.2 >> 1271

== 1271

Min damage on second hit:
193 * 1.569 = 302.817 >> 302

== 302 if no bonus

302 * 1.4 = 422

== 422 if bonus

Total min damage:
1,573 (no second hit bonus)
1,693 (with second hit bonus)

Total max damage:
2,500 (no second hit bonus)
2,692 (with second hit bonus)

Sample data:

1st Hit+offhand damage(2hit)= 2035,2207,1952,2426,2533,2354,1981,1944,2502,2158,2056,2195,2539, 2081

3 hits that break the "no second hit bonus" threshold. Pretty certain that the second hit gains the bonus damage.

1st Hit+offhand miss+DA(2hit)= 2249

Nothing conclusive

1st Hit miss+offhand hit+DA(2hit)= 1074

If second normal hit gets the bonus, but DA does not, max would be 480 + 672 = 1152. This is within range of that. It is too high to be explained if neither the second hit nor any DAs got the bonus, though, so the bonus must apply to at least one of the hits. This meshes with the above conclusion that the second hit gets the damage multiplier, however the damage is not high enough to show that the DA gets the damage multiplier.

1st Hit+offhand hit+DA(3hit)= 2992,2779,2673,2636

Max damage if neither the second hit nor the DA get the bonus: 2980
Max damage if the second hit gets the bonus but the DA does not: 3172

1st Hit+offhand hit+2hits(4hit)= 3278,3168,3669

Max if all 4 hits get the bonus: 4,036
Max if only first hit gets the bonus: 3,460
Max if second hit gets bonus but DAs do not: 3,652
Aside: if base damage was 194 instead of 193, max damage would be 3673, which would make the result within range. However the odds of getting something so close to absolute max in three samples are incredibly low.

None of the samples are low enough to compare against the min damage numbers for secondary confirmation.

Conclusion: Relic Weapon Skills Damage Multiplier applies to all hits

Definite conclusion: the damage multiplier applies to the second hit of the multi-hit.
Possible (but not definite) conclusion: the damage multiplier applies to DA hits as well.

**Motenten** · 2012-04-23 10:49

Originally Posted by Churchill

Supposed to be 2.25, which is why I figured I fucked something up in the equation when the first 10 WS I did were higher damage.

Originally Posted by diasetsu

That's cRatio @ 2.25, pDif should fluctuate somewhere from 1.6-2.6 @ 2.25cRatio, but don't know exact numbers.

Max cRatio for 2-handed weapons is 2.25. Max pDif would be (2.25 + 0.375) * 1.05 = 2.75625

Originally Posted by Churchill

154 Base damage+85WSC= 239
25fSTR
2.25*1.019+0.485= 2.77775pDIF
2.75fTP+0.2fTP from gorgets= 2.95fTP
+10WSDMG= 1.10
Relic Bonus= 1.25

Single hit max
fl(fl(fl(fl((239+25)*2.77775)*2.95)*1.10)*1.25)=29 72

Additional hit max w/relic bonus
fl(fl((239+25)*2.77775)*1.25)=916

Total base damage: 154 (weapon) + 25 (fStr) + 85 (WSC) = 264
fTP: 2.75 + 200/1024 = 2.9453125

Max damage from first hit:
264 * 2.9453125 = 777.5625 >> 777
777 * 2.625 = 2,039.625 >> 2039
2039 * 1.05 = 2,140.95 >> 2140
2140 * 1.1 = 2,354
2,354 * 1.25 = 2,942.5 >> 2942

Max observed one-hit weaponskill: 2873. Within range.

Max damage from additional hits:
264 * 2.625 = 693
693 * 1.05 = 727.65 >> 727 [if 1.1 not applied]
727 * 1.1 = 799.7 >> 799 [if bonus not applied]
799 * 1.25 = 998.75 >> 998 [if bonus+1.1 applied]
727 * 1.25 = 908.75 >> 908 [if bonus applied, not 1.1]

Total max main + DA:
No bonuses to second hit: 3,669
1.1 bonus to second hit: 3,741
Relic bonus to second hit: 3,850
Full bonus to second hit: 3,940

Max observed: 3719

Tentative conclusion: Neither the 1.1 bonus nor the relic bonus apply to the DA'd hit.

**Motenten** · 2012-04-23 10:55

Originally Posted by Churchill

Did a DA Cata for 1292 on an EM Bluffalo with the above stats, I'm not sure what pdif ratio to use. Spent an hour doing Cata's with 744 attack and had a few 1-hit Cata's do lower damage than what I was using for minimum pDIF, so I'm assuming I did that portion wrong. Did ~30m of 566 attack (using Defender) and got the 1292 was was the absolute lowest I saw a DA Cata do. Lowest 1-hit Cata was 1133 w/out Defender (744 attack)

744 attack should have a cRatio of 1.44, which would give a minimum pDif of exactly 1.0. That's actually probably the best means of testing this, using the 1.0 hard limit; that way you know exactly how much is being applied to the base damage. Would suggest targetting ~700 attack for a 1.35 cRatio, as that will give you pretty high odds of hitting the 1.0 min.

**Foldypaws** · 2012-04-23 11:33

So to sum up, the tentative conclusion at this point is Relic and WSD bonuses apply to all natural hits of a WS, but not to offhand or multiattack?

**Churchill** · 2012-04-23 14:40

I'll go out and try tonight then. 700 attack isn't easy to do while also wearing Phorcys and Ogier's lol.

**diasetsu** · 2012-04-23 14:44

Originally Posted by Motenten

Max if all 4 hits get the bonus: 4,036
Max if only first hit gets the bonus: 3,460
Max if second hit gets bonus but DAs do not: 3,652
Aside: if base damage was 194 instead of 193, max damage would be 3673, which would make the result within range. However the odds of getting something so close to absolute max in three samples are incredibly low.

Definite conclusion: the damage multiplier applies to the second hit of the multi-hit.
Possible (but not definite) conclusion: the damage multiplier applies to DA hits as well.

Base Damage is 193, 52 for spharai+3+49skill+14fStr=118
149vit= 149*.6*.85 =75
Damage=118+75=193

Did some more Weaponskills regardless and ended up with a 5-hit doing 4244, but more definitively had a 1TP return Final Heaven do 527 damage.

Relic Bonus applies to all hits

**Motenten** · 2012-04-23 22:43

Originally Posted by Churchill

I'll go out and try tonight then. 700 attack isn't easy to do while also wearing Phorcys and Ogier's lol.

Anything from 700 to 740 is fine, but the lower end would be better.

@diasetsu: Thanks for confirmation.

**Churchill** · 2012-04-23 22:49

There aren't any people killing bluffalos, so I had a hard time getting them to level up, do you have data for DC ones/could I use those?

**Motenten** · 2012-04-23 23:45

Originally Posted by Churchill

There aren't any people killing bluffalos, so I had a hard time getting them to level up, do you have data for DC ones/could I use those?

Sorry, I only got data for the EM and T bluffalo. For your purposes they'd still be usable, though, as long as you can get your attack down low enough (hard to say how far, though, since you don't know their levels; probly need to drop 10-30 attack, though). You just need to be sure that your min damage is hitting the hard 1.0 limit.

**Churchill** · 2012-04-23 23:51

Well you've got a 5DEF difference between EM and T, so I'll try to get under 725 to be safe. I think normal gear+defender should do that.

**Diddy Kong** · 2012-05-27 13:53

Anyone else wonder if WS DMG gear works like gorgets? First hit on non-fTP transfer and all hits on ones that do transfer?

**diasetsu** · 2012-05-28 10:25

I actually figured WS DMG+ would apply to all hits of fTP transferring Weapon Skills as well, but hadn't gotten around to testing anything till today. I still had a oxblood key or whatever it is, so made an anwig salade with WS DMG+2 on the test server as I don't actually have COR or RNG high enough for Last Stand otherwise.

Used a brew on Hadhayosh doing Weapon Skills @300TP with and without Anwig:

STR999 AGI999 Ratk:capped 57DMG gun, 77DMG bullet, 28fSTR2, 849WSC, 2.25fTP, 3.0pDif

Estimated damage without Anwig= floor(floor((57+28+77+849)*2.25)*3)=6822/hit=13644damage
Estimated damage if Anwig applies to both hits= floor(floor(floor(1011*2.25)*3)*1.02)=6958/hit=13916
Estimated damage if Anwig only applies to 1st hit=floor(floor(floor(1011*2.25)*3)*1.02)+floor(fl oor(1011*2.25)*3)=13780

Observed Damage wihout Anwig: 13644, 13644
Observed Damage with Anwig: 13780, 13780, 6958

Conclusion: Weaponskill Damage+ gear only applies to the 1st hit of any WS, even those whose fTP transfers.

**Ophannus** · 2012-05-28 11:03

--but Overwhelm works on ALL hits. Samurai Fantasy XI 4lyfe

**Byrthnoth** · 2012-05-28 11:05

Originally Posted by Ophannus

--but Overwhelm works on ALL hits. Samurai Fantasy XI 4lyfe

Does it? I'm beginning to doubt.

Refulgent Arrow may be the easiest way to test if it is actually two hits, but I think people have said that it is not.

**Nightfyre** · 2012-05-28 11:30

Refulgent is definitely not two hits. Would be one hell of a powerful WS if it was.

**Motenten** · 2012-05-28 11:49

Originally Posted by diasetsu

Conclusion: Weaponskill Damage+ gear only applies to the 1st hit of any WS, even those whose fTP transfers.

Hmm. Will have to rewrite the spreadsheet calculations to account for that, then.

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