The difference between what men and women find hot about men (nsfw, unless you're in a gay club)

[Ivve]

yeah, at times it seems less like asking for information and more like trying to invalidate someone else's opinion. if you don't ask a clear question and just press on telling someone how wrong they are, or how they don't understand the conversation occurring, it just turns into a fight rather than a discussion. it irritates me because what sera is saying strikes me as another male entitlement thing. i'm gay, i like to fuck men, clearly i know more/better about sex with men and what makes men attractive than women do! why has it been turned into a competition over who is more mansex knowledgeable?

take for example:

I was mistified why anyone would call that guy feminine, when being a guy who's seen plenty of gays, i know what a real feminine guy looks like.

i see, so your definition is the one that's more correct here? and it's because you're a man? that sounds like some weird spinoff of male superiority, unless you just think that as a gay man, you've seen more depictions of naked men or men in porn? not sure why you would assume that, unless you're going on the assumption that women do not watch porn. well, unless you just watch an inordinately large amount of porn.

6. Don't you dare play the 'it's my opinion' card. No one is entitled to have their opinions not be criticized when they are found wanting. You are perfectly able to say you perceive something as feminine, but that does not mean your perception is equaly valuable as everyone else's. Some perceptions are better; yours is worse.

no, you just didn't have an understanding of what women consider to be feminine or why, and i can't find a place that you ever actually posed the question. you simply told us that we were wrong. just argumentative.

also, i find it sort of interesting that we were getting put on blast for making categorical statements, but for some reason it was totally kosher to assert that all women are made uncomfortable by dick pics:

Oh, i think the ambivalence women have with male genitalia is absurd bordering on insanity. Wrong is a bit of a stretch though. I used to say that women were just socialized "wrong", but i don't really say that anymore because it was just a justification and not a statement of fact.

No, i don't think female sexuality is wrong; i still don't trust it though. The whole penis dilema women have is just too fucked up.

no women who have posted here yet fully agree with much in any of these statements or similar ones you've made throughout the thread. at best, a couple expressed wanting to see a progression of nakedness, rather than clothed to naked in one photo. that's pretty consistent with the general perception of womens' sexuality, where emphasis is heavy on foreplay and acts outside penis-in-vagina, penetrational sex.

also interesting again that you say you don't "trust" womens' sexuality. our sexuality is not to be trusted. not to be trusted? so it's suspected of something. who exactly gets to determine that our sexuality as women is suspect in any way? what does that mean? it just rubs me as a male superiority thing, as if the way that men experience sex is the correct experience to have. why would it be?

[Lucienne]

The nudity/penis thing i'm still eh on. The thinness thing was explained with something specific, but i feel that saying that women tend to not like seeing penis/male nudity/find is disgusting/or would prefer some more clothes over full nudity is because of society's preassures on female sexuality is not yet a specific enough statement.

Purely visually, do you prefer to see women with legs spread apart and their vaginas gaping open or just naked in a seductive pose? Naked men are automatically exposed in a sexual way. In most cases it's just too straight forward too fast.

[Kuya]

Really really good discourse going on here. I never actually thought about a lot of the social conditioning that comes with growing up female, but Stephanie is spot on with her posts.

Kuya, I think the thing that put me off this discussion the most is something a lot of gays do, which is the (somewhat derisive) "silly straight girls! they don't know ANYTHING" attitude that so many gay guys maintain. "What? That straight girl doesn't like to look at a picture of a giant cock and nothing else? What is she, stupid or something? Either that or she must be scared of penis. Poor girl!" I've seen it IRL so many times, and it always makes me want to smack the fuck out of the gay guy saying it. As much as some gay dudes want to pretend they are women, they aren't, and vice versa. Don't get me wrong, I think both groups are met with individual developmental challenges as we grow into our sexual identities as adults, but gay men seem to think that the common thread of "hey, we both like to fuck dudes!" is some sort of a catch all that implies similarities in other aspects of the game. Admittedly it's something that annoys me, and doesn't come off as a "hey, I really want to understand why you guys don't like this" type of opening for discourse. Assuming we don't like looking at wang because of some article here or there doesn't really open yourself up to receiving answers to your queries so much as it begs for being proven wrong (because honestly, the assumption IS wrong, but not for the reasons you were thinking) so it ends up getting in the way of the overall topic.

Also now that she mentioned it, it IS the collarbone thing. I don't know why, but thin dudes have that delicate collarbone thing going on, and that does smack of femininity to me for some reason, though I can't really pinpoint why.

I wouldn't know what you're talking about since i don't engage in comradery with straight women. You'd have to ask gays that like femenine stuff or gays that like to hang around women about that stuff.

[Kuya]

I would assume that all men, even if gay and prone to hang around fag hags, are still sexist to some extent.

[Demosthenes]

Just saying. You'd be hard press to find the Soccer fanbase in America ever get loud enough to be noticed when its not World Cup Season.

NYC Sunday soccer bb.

[Kuya]

And notice that in my OP i used some/most women to avoid saying all. I am well aware some women crave cock, so i made sure to pre-empt that. I also posted two seperate scientific articles that point out that, yes, in fact, many women, much more than men, have problems with male nudity and male genitalia (aside from their own).

[Kuya]

And as i mentioned in a previous post: i used to consider that women sexuality was wrong or unnatural because it was somehow more socialized and oppressed then men's sexuality, but i stopped having that position because it was somewhat unfalsifiable, and it was sexist. So now i no longer say women are wrong in their sexuality because it is not natural like men's, but that doesn't mean i like how female sexuality works in some instances (such as with nudity).

[Kuya]

That also doesn't mean i won't make a topic to rant about the ways chicks see sex. I do think you're fucked up in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean i am going to pretend to know why. The topic didn't start out as serious, but it went in the serious direction.

[Kuya]

Which is bad because, even if i didn't make the thread with a serious intention, but the thread then becomes serious, then people will go back to the begining of the thread, use what i said as evidence of how wrong/dismissive/abrassive/uncouth i was being and therefore wrong too, which is unfair since the thread never started out as serious. Which in hindsight, you might also use to excuse the things you said too.

[Kuya]

yeah, at times it seems less like asking for information and more like trying to invalidate someone else's opinion. if you don't ask a clear question and just press on telling someone how wrong they are, or how they don't understand the conversation occurring, it just turns into a fight rather than a discussion. it irritates me because what sera is saying strikes me as another male entitlement thing. i'm gay, i like to fuck men, clearly i know more/better about sex with men and what makes men attractive than women do! why has it been turned into a competition over who is more mansex knowledgeable?

Well yes, of course i didn't ask a clear question because i didn't make the thread looking for answers. And of course the thread turned into a fight since the thread was a fight to begin with. From the very first page i was tossing attacks at lin, which she took in strides.

[Kuya]

i see, so your definition is the one that's more correct here? and it's because you're a man? that sounds like some weird spinoff of male superiority, unless you just think that as a gay man, you've seen more depictions of naked men or men in porn? not sure why you would assume that, unless you're going on the assumption that women do not watch porn. well, unless you just watch an inordinately large amount of porn.

Maybe, but i do assume i've seen more nude males than women and i do assume i've seen more feminine men than straight women, and thus i know more about that. It's about tendencies, probabilities, and generalizations. Gay and bisexual men, like straight men, statistically do see more porn than women. Gay men and bisexual men in particular see more naked men than straight women do. Gay men and bisexual men are more exposed to more feminine looking men than straight women are. These are facts. I think you can dispute my extrapolations from them, but i doubt you could dispute the facts.

[Kuya]

no, you just didn't have an understanding of what women consider to be feminine or why

I didn't.

and i can't find a place that you ever actually posed the question.

I asked the question when comments over femininity popped up. It was never the original point of the thread (no questions were asked in the OP). See previous posts over the original point of the thread, which don't really matter now because thread's evolve dynamically. And right now, it became a serious discussion over what is feminine.

but for some reason it was totally kosher to assert that all women are made uncomfortable by dick pics:

I didn't.

[Conrad]

pegging

We covered that at one point, I think, but good job affirming it

[Conrad]

Purely visually, do you prefer to see women with legs spread apart and their vaginas gaping open or just naked in a seductive pose? Naked men are automatically exposed in a sexual way. In most cases it's just too straight forward too fast.

I think that in general, it's more difficult to sexualize men by virtue of women being the objectively more beautiful sex. Also, there isn't much that can be revealed on a man's body that can't be legally exposed in public, so I think the idea is that since women don't typically see the penis and it is our sexual organ, it must be brought out early and often.

Fun fact though, it is legal in New York City for a woman to walk around with exposed breasts.

[Antithesis]

Fun fact though, it is legal in New York City for a woman to walk around with exposed breasts.

How often does that actually happen?

[Galkaeater]

Is it legal to stare?

[Kuya]

virtue of women being the objectively more beautiful sex.

lol

[Conrad]

I know I'm heterosexual, but women are definitely more beautiful than men kuya.

[Antithesis]

I gotta back Skirkle up on this Kuya.

[Kuya]

One thing i think is related to what we're talking is the debate feminist have over porn. For example, there is a debate between anti-porn feminists and porn positive feminists over porn (which relates to our nudity debate). The anti-porn feminists think that porn is a patriarchal institution that by its very nature oppresses women, while porn positive feminists think porn can be healthy for women if it is made for women. The interesting thing is how accusations of being subserviant to patriarchy are thrown between both sides.

The anti-porn feminists accuse the other side of putting a friendly face over porn which is an industry that degrades women and turns them into objects for men to lust over. They argue that making porn for women doesn't change the fact that porn is by its very nature a very explicit aspect of sexuality that men represent. Additionally, non feminists who are anti-porn might accuse the pro-porn side of trying to make women into men by trying to appropriate things that belong to men (a familiar argument to some women on this forum). Essentially, the anti-porn feminists argument boils down to saying porn for women will turn into this:


Fierce, girrrrrrrrrrrl

Meanwhile, porn positive feminists accuse the other side of taking a quality that patriarchy imposes over women (the idea women don't like porn because they do not like explicit sexuality like men do) and treating it as if it were a natural phenomenon that defines women. Sort of turning a patriarchal construct and calling it feminism.

This relates to our debate because then we can also question, are the views that women hold over nudity natural or are they imposed by a patriarchal society? The problem is, when you say something about women and nudity being imposed by society, aren't you inadvertedly claiming its ungenuine, false and bad? That's the problem i have with the society argument. An interesting thing about it though, is that just because you claim that women's views over nudity are imposed, doesn't mean you necesarily have to argue that those views are bad. Or conversely, if it's natural, it doesn't mean it's good. But if you tell some women that their sexuality is imposed by society, people usually understand that it means that's bad. And some women might interpret this as you trying to delegitimize her feelings, which seems sexist.