Legion - info and strategies

[Taint]

As a yoichi owner with fond memories of the level 75 days of soboro/namas spam in einherjar, this legion setup has me intrigued. Do you happen to have an OAT2-4 GKT to hand for some testing? It would be interesting to see how that and pizza+1 (make up for -40 acc) would compare to Amano & rcb.

The JPs on Cerb use 2-4 GKT. The thing with SAM is you get TP insanely fast with any GKT with Legion sized buffs. Human error alone favors Amano since over TPing does nothing for Namas. Capping attack is also incredibly important for Namas spam to work.

[Jem]

As ridiculous as it sounds, I can't see it improving WS frequency that much. I mean Iron did 238 WS's compared to a Conqueror's 148 including a minor weapon swap. That's already obscenely more WS'es than a OA2-3 weapon that probably 5 hits.

[EjinCaitsith]

As ridiculous as it sounds, I can't see it improving WS frequency that much. I mean Iron did 238 WS's compared to a Conqueror's 148 including a minor weapon swap. That's already obscenely more WS'es than a OA2-3 weapon that probably 5 hits.

While I agree Amano is the better choice, It's not exactly fair to to compare WS rates with other DDs since you've already established that the only reason it's outperforming the other DD is because it isn't getting stunned/amnesia as much. Hell, he has an astonishing 98% higher WS rate than the #2 with only 60 extra melee hits(what's up with the Conq having even fewer melee hits than a DRK? I've never had that happen to me.). While a higher WS rate is expected when considering xhit differences in hybrid builds, but that doesn't fully explain a 118 WS advantage alone besides that something is preventing the other DD from WSing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, as it's precisely where Yoichi SAM has always capitalized and gained an advantage. Exactly like the old days when Yoichi SAM would sit back and spam Namas while the other unfortunate DDs all ate the Snatch Morsel and Feather Tickles.

[IronPandemonium]

As a yoichi owner with fond memories of the level 75 days of soboro/namas spam in einherjar, this legion setup has me intrigued. Do you happen to have an OAT2-4 GKT to hand for some testing? It would be interesting to see how that and pizza+1 (make up for -40 acc) would compare to Amano & rcb.

using pizza would KILL your namas average more or less, since already without berserk you're somewhat hurting, so if you excluded rcb as well, pardon my french, but you'd be permanently fucking yourself basically; amanomurakumo/rcb is the way to go, hands down, since you're already getting 100% tp within the blink of an eye basically, and i've been parsing horribly compared to my former self as well as of late, due to physical pain hindering my foresight immensely, so if you think oa2-4 could ws more reliably than amanomurakumo from looking at that parse, think again

also, might i add to all the inquiries of my ws total in that parse: technically, that parse was ACTUALLY Wave1 of Muru x2, An x1 and Im x1, as well as the Mul x2, so technically a good 20~24 of those ws's were done outside of mul, but 10~12 or so can be considered from everyone elses' total to even it out; still, just wanted to point that out quick to anyone who may be appalled at my ws total there, and i apologize thoroughly if this caused any confusion, though in the end i'm sure it has no actual bearing on people's thoughts in total

just didn't think people would analyze it that thoroughly at the time of posting (along with cleaning out inventory, editing spellcast and also dealing with multiple mysterious pol crashes), so again, my mistake for not mentioning something earlier that may have helped clarify the scenario a bit more thoroughly

[ccl]

There is a few things to keep in mind while showing a little, this parse is not representative of best possible yoichi in mul:

-It was the very 1st run of Iron as yoichi sam in mul.
-Used Namas when zerk down too, I'd def shoha with zerk down.
-There was no angon, having a ryu drg most likely make it even better.
-Some (most ?) other melee were JP, so they might not have made a decent wacry rotation wich would make namas better too.
Being able to avoid amnesia is very good already, but I'm sure, it will get even better as people get used to use it, the number will get higher, I might be able to provide some number too saturday or next monday, depending if work stop taking so much time, but I'm sure with 1-2 more run, Iron namas number will be greater than those.

[IronPandemonium]

personally, i felt as if namas was still very on-par with shoha with berserk down (while of course surpassing it with berserk up), but, once ccl has his own bow at 99 and we've got equal gear (i'm missing tenryu hakama +1 for example), we can perhaps make a comparison there, but i felt as if the cRatio abuse even on uncapped attack made namas naturally better full time (bar on bones of course, such as naraka)

regardless, i can say with certainty that - finding/gathering antlion quivers aside - this is and will most likely be my most favorite damage dealing setup for myself in legion, even despite me savoring kogarasumaru quite a bit more as of late thanks to the addition of usukane +1

[damet]

Question. How are the PLDs here kiting Gallu while your alliance kills Botolus? Gallu runs so fast and keeps killing me ; ;

[Pandum]

Question. How are the PLDs here kiting Gallu while your alliance kills Botolus? Gallu runs so fast and keeps killing me ; ;

our pld just engages it

[ccl]

Gallu depending on wich pld is on:

-Powder feet kite it or hold on the opposite side of the map and twilight hold it till melee kill rex. One of the good thing to have rng, if pld die+strip, rng can shadowbind it before it reach rex.

[macross]

Why did it took us about half a year longer than JP to start using bow sam in legion , if they remove level correction and play with attack/defense, it might totally destroy it .

Hehe we've been using it forever. Will only parse on top if you have mura too though, else war is stronger for mul.

[IronPandemonium]

Hehe we've been using it forever. Will only parse on top if you have mura too though, else war is stronger for mul.

not to knitpick and/or come off as offensive here (and i apologize if i do offend you), butttttttt why haven't you mentioned it before then <_> lol

[macross]

My bad, I thought everyone was using/knew about namas power. Didn't know it was some big jpn secret or anything hehe.
It just makes sam viable, and only if you have mura. If not then war will still come out on top very likely along with drk.

[ccl]

Hehe we've been using it forever. Will only parse on top if you have mura too though, else war is stronger for mul.

Our result are slighty different so far, how many dd are you using ? PD or hybrid+stun way ? buff ?
Or maybe your war are better than ours!

[Kujah2010]

Best lag episode in Mul ever last night.

Im up on stun -> mantis melee attacks -> 5 DDs die -> 1s later -> Mired Mantis readies Death prophet -> KOs everyone that died 4s ago. WAT

Move went off before the mob readied it and even before animation. Was seen by EVERYONE in alliance, not just me.

SE Y U H8 ME

[Keichan]

As mac had described, the use of Amano+Yoichi isn't a recent development and many of the LS's in Bismarck use this strategy already. I personally have been a proponent of this strategy for years (had both weapons before dynamis renewal) and since I had been doing it since the very first day since I had walked into legion, I will give you my detailed analysis of what is going on. First off, I will provide you with a parse to demonstrate how it works and a mob by mob run-down on exactly "why" it works.

Background: First off, our LS runs with a PD strategy that involves 5 DD's. We are typically buffed with 1 Dauru/Carna/Gjaller BRD and 1 COR. This parse is a parse of 14 kills, although our best is 15.5. We are confident we will reach 16 and if not 17 without screwups (This is with some mule SMN's). I have omitted our 15 kill runs because of deaths/screwups that gives a large disadvantage over the other DD's. This parse demonstrates the most "fairness" amongst the DD's (no one died). Because of the nature of LS play, we do not always top load our best DD's because they are required to play other critical roles. Thus, the other SAM/WAR 99Amano/99Yoichi and DRK/SAM (95 rag) are subbed in. The two WAR's however, are equipped with the best endgear equipment, hexed abjuration -1's and accompanying weapons (99 Rag/99 Ukon) (No conqueror data, sorry).

So let's start:

Figure 1: Overall parse
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2c0989c961.jpg
This is the overview of all the damage dealt over a 14 mob Mul run. This is merely an overview so it is just your reference of where the DD's stand overall. I will go into the details of where the advantages/disadvantages occur between the jobs and describe where Namas Damage and Murasamemaru plays a large part in the overall event.

Figure 2: Overall WS Averages and Frequency
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2c24ab7e5e.jpg
As you can observe, experience in high buffed situations have a large effect on weaponskill frequency. The DRK and the other SAM are subs, so you can see the large WS frequency difference. It is to note Namas damage between the two SAM's. I have organized the SAM to use Berserk at the same time as me. This damage difference is caused entirely by
1. Distance- Large R.attack penalties play a role when you are not meleeing at maximum melee distance when performing Namas Arrow
2. Gear- He is geared for Shoha, but missing key pieces such as Shura Kabuto +1 (WSD+3 R.attack +8), Thall Mantle, Hadjuk ring +1, and Vulcan Pearls. My set differs from Iarumas and is posted on my FFXIAH page. Over rigorous testing, I have determined that my set caps R.acc and provides the best stat increase. (Just make sure you use alternate Hamanoha when you Namas the Gallu if you kill it 2nd)

Figure 3: Mob Selection: Namas Suceptible Mobs- Overall: Harpy, Mantis, Gallu
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2bd3d2edc9.jpg
Here I demonstrate the advantage that Namas has over other DD's on the mobs that I only use Namas on. On the next figure, I will show you the WS averages of this mob selection.

Figure 4: Mob Selection- WS Average/Frequency on Namas Suceptible Mobs - Harpy, Mantis, Gallu
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2bee903a06.jpg
I have never seen Shoha demonstrate these averages and this run is actually when Namas was one of it's weakest. (If you add a DRG with Angon, this average spikes to 3.5+). The addition of Angon has less of an effect for 2H weapons versus Ranged WS so with the addition of DRG, this "gap" only increases.

Figure 5: Mob Selection- Shoha Mobs- Botulus(Murasamemaru), Hahava, Ironclads
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2bd3d2edca.jpg
If I had a DRG, I would use Namas on the Ironclad also. However, in this run I did not-- so Shoha was used to preserve the use of Berserk. Here, you can see that the WAR's will consistantly beat SAM without the use of Yoichinoyumi which is something that is frankly expected. My disadvantage was greatly diminished because of the use of Murasamemaru on PDT strong mobs (Botulus Mobs) which I will demonstrate on the following figures.

Figure 6: Botulus: No Mighty Strike by WAR
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2c0989c962.jpg
The use of a Murasamemaru is exactly what Macross had described to be a big factor in SAM's success. The last two slides will demonstrate this:

Figure 7: Botulus: Mighty Strike by WAR advantage
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2bee903a07.jpg
WAR gains a large advantage by using Mighty Strikes (well, obviously). This is despite having a small degree of amnesia. The reason why we don't use it on Gallu is because Namas arrow is strong enough that no Mighty Strikes is ever needed. (check averages on figure 4). Had WAR's used Mighty strike on the Gallu for no apparent reason, the totals would be closer between WAR and SAM.

Figure 8: Botulus: Total damage of all Botulus + Mighty Strikes
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...2c0989c963.jpg
The advantages that WAR has on Botulus gets chipped away with a Murasamemaru as more Botulus mobs are fought.

Conclusion: The use of Namas arrow has a large impact (well, you guys now know that already), but not entirely due to the conclusion that had been previously been seen. As Macross has stated, Murasamemaru is also a large factor of SAM's success especially in stanced Hahavas. Our melees are PDed more than half the time so amnesia/stuns do not play a large degree in the advantage that Amano/Yoichi SAM's have over other options. I have confidence in the two WAR's in their ability in terms of Ukon (first wave), Ragna(2nd wave) WAR's and are representative strong players. In these situations, with the best possible DRK, I have seen a strong matchup. However, with a DRG and a well timed Angon, the averages of Namas arrow will reach 3.5+ and I have never seen any DD touch this type of damage output.

[IronPandemonium]

while i'm sure it goes without saying that we all appreciate the in-depth comparisons to a notable degree, i myself was never under the impression we needed it since really, what you showed us was pretty much what i posted on the page before, in a nutshell, and i'm not trying to come off as condescending here either by any means, just... i think people get the idea that samurai with yoichi's bow - paired with red curry accessed via abusing amanomurakumo's accuracy for proper, efficient tp cumulation - has unacknowledged potential (though shouldn't be bandwagoned by any means, really, since you can't go mass samurai or else the strategy kind of fucks itself over)

thing is though, while everyone were already doing 18-kill-clears here and there without a single bow samurai in sight in their alliance, you're feeling the need to go thoroughly over it now suddenly - only after the light's been shined on it - preaching that it's supposedly an old tactic, when clearly it hasn't been ever mentioned before until Ccl mentioned it last week or so via the japanese shell demonstrating it to him, much in the same sense of him demonstrating it to me (just to emphasize that even i didn't know of it until recently)

basically what i'm getting at here is, and i'm not trying to come off as if i'm attacking you here or anything stupid along those lines, because starting shit here's the least of my interest, but yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you should've posted that post in particular ages ago, back when you and your shell supposedly knew about it exclusively, so you would've enlightened us all; otherwise, let's just stick to constructive opinions on decimating the event as a whole instead of the whole dunning-kruger effect-ridden thing we've got going on there with that post

i will say though, if there's one thing to capitalize on in your post, it's the standing distance from your target being a massive factor with your namas consistency, because i'll admit in the parse i posted earlier for example, sustaining proper, efficient distance wasn't something i wasn't focusing on at all: just positioning was in my mind at the time (immense physical pain, all the while fighting to stay awake = woohoo), and because of that, my average certainly did hurt quite a bit, as shown compared to yours in those parses, and hell, probably even my namas accuracy, but i'm selling my second vulcan's pearl since i'm 99% certain it jams anyways due to square enix being silly gooses and making earrings/rings of the same name incapable of reliably swapping in when you tell them to at the same time, especially in laggy zones such as legion; that recent change aside in my set, i'd swap bellona's ring for aife's ring, if i had it and could in fact still cap namas hit rate consistently

oh, and in case it wasn't pointed out yet: murasamemaru absolutely eats the adamantoises alive inside of the An chamber lol

[Keichan]

Not only does it (mura) decimate the turtle, but it also decimates the Sandworm too. It will deal damage during WS even despite being in physical or magical resist mode. Something that is sometimes well overlooked even with Mura users.

As for posting, I have avoided posting at all. But this has something to do with my tendencies to stick to myself and avoid any sort of confrontation and just play the game. So overall, no worries, no offense taken.

I also assumed that people knew about this because this was mentioned before on the FFXIAH DRG forums --they had brought it up months ago as well. I have analyzed other LS's and their strategies and they all have Yoichi SAM's involved. The fact that it was never brought up on BG forums is beyond me. But even Ihina's pick up group Legion had applied it also months ago: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bismarck/Ihina

These recent posts made me realize that there wasn't solid data on this subject amoung even the highest tier players and still in the "just testing" phase. Because of this-- is why I am posting now with my detailed analysis on why and how it works.

For your earrings, have you considered scripting with your Ear1 on top of the script and Ear2 on the bottom of your script? That usually does it for me.

[Raistlinratt]

Not to be condescending or anything, but what Keityan had posted is entirely different than what you have posted. Sure, they are both concerning Amano/Yoichi Samurai, but here are the major differences.

A. Keityan has been doing this strategy for a long time (over a year just in legion), so this is not someone who is just “exploring” or “testing” this strategy out. He has the experience and knowledge that not only demonstrates “exactly” what makes it work, but how to replicate it. The knowledge of “distance” is just one idea but here’s more.

B. He’s pinpointed exactly “which” mobs work and which ones don’t. The Harpy, Gallu, and Mantis. Your data shows nothing of the sort, just random, otherwise “weak” Namas Arrow damage with a high WS frequency.

C. He’s pinpointed the “correct” reason why Namas is winning. With his analysis along with perfect defense, amnesia shouldn’t make a difference, yet Namas is still winning. All you are doing is spewing false information all over the place. The reason why it’s good is because the damage is hax broken, not simply because it is hateless damage.

D. As he said, this strategy isn’t proprietary over just one LS. There’s plenty of other NA LS’s that do this, why blame him if he didn’t post it earlier? To some people who are actually good at their jobs, they take these things for granted.


While we appreciate your "analysis" after only using it a few times in past week or two?, Keityan's is much more complete and informative. His is refined, so yeaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, we did need his post on the forums, obviously. The distance detail alone can mean the difference between a 3900 dmg namas and a 4653 dmg namas, substantial in my opinion.

Here is a post on the FFXIAH forums proving that people knew about this before you think the almighty JPs "enlightened" us poor NAs to the "secret" strat of utilizing namas to its potential on samurai.

By Asura.Kalasin 2012-11-29 22:12:37
Link | Block | Pm | Quote | Reply | Report | Score: 4 +

In both cases you will cap hate fast enough with your normal shots, assuming you mean events like Odin2 and not 30s fights such as in Legion. I've beaten several Anni RNGs with Yoichi(all 99) in Legion, and it was very close. Namas had a higher average than Coronach, while Last stand was obviously the highest damage option, although it was way closer to Namas than people are making it out to be. It's really not much different from a well geared Yoichi RNG Namas.

That being said, Anni is in theory the better weapon, but by no means does it always and forever win at everything. Upgrade what you like most, Bow or Gun, they both are very powerful.

Edit: Don't underestimate Yoichi SAM with a lot of buffs, especially on things where Shoha/Kaiten/Fudo won't shine, again that's mainly in Legion. You can push your average of Namas on SAM to ~2.5k even in Mul with 2 BRDs and 1 COR, and you can always swap to Shoha or whatever for the Naraka. If you have the Uptala gkt that's just a bonus for Botulus, and if you do, other DD will have a hard time getting close to you(using Amano99+Yoichi99+Mura as a reference/personal experience).

I can't post the stupid link to the post because i need 10 posts before i can do links... but this is the ending part, just add the beginning

/forum/topic/33352/relic-bow-v-relic-gun/#2105947

[Scrooge]

The reason why it’s good is because the damage is hax broken, not simply because it is hateless damage.

That's a very misleading statement for any average bandwagon player that reads it without bothering to understand what's going on. For general purposes, Namas is a good, but not spectacularly great, or "broken" WS. It's not like old-school Tachi: Gekko, which had properties that somewhat slightly compensated for general shittiness.

It'd be more accurate to say Namas Arrow has high upside in occasional, highly buffed (and mob debuffed) situations against relatively high level monsters.

For most non-Legion events, you won't see eye popping Namas Arrow action - at least not on the average damage spectrum. For SAM, the positive properties of Namas Arrow don't generally trump the negatives. It's a highly r.attack-starved WS, on a job with C+ archery skill and very little dedicated r.att gear, with an additional, huge r.att penalty for being in melee range, that cannot utilize Overwhelm. And to my knowledge, ranged damage still uses one-handed attack calculation, not even getting the two-hander boost. Honestly, my Stardivers off a 24 dmg Quint Spear do only slightly less avg dmg than Namas on DC mobs in Dynamis.

That being said, Namas is uniquely suited for Legion because it's an event where you have high level mobs, a ton of buffs, and more importantly a ton of dedicated debuffing of mob defense. Outside of Legion, you're not likely to come across giant numbers off Namas, it's not usually that kind of WS.

[Raistlinratt]

This forum is named "Legion - info and strategies" and the prerequisite buffs needed to get namas to a "hax" level has already been stated...We have all been exclusively talking about highly buffed situations, but I guess thanks for clarifying that for any of the Bandwagon players who come in here and don't actually read, and instead zero in on one specific sentence...