The Prenatal Holocaust

[archibaldcrane]

Are you serious or sarcastic about this?

Serious.

Life begins at conception. Not all life is treated as protected by law. Society works better that way, and that's why abortion should remain legal.

[Yugl]

I am inclined to agree with you but I was somewhat stunned that someone agrees with the idea society treats different forms of killing differently. Had to check for sarcasm.

[Blarg]

killing cute blonde girls is obviously the worst kind of killing, I thought everyone knew that

[hey]

I am inclined to agree with you but I was somewhat stunned that someone agrees with the idea society treats different forms of killing differently. Had to check for sarcasm.

...what? I can't imagine anyone (other than plow) thinking otherwise. You would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks you should just lay down and die before killing someone in self defense, for example.

[Qalbert]

obviously you didn't read the "guy stabs his bully" thread

[MaachaQ]

My question for Moosey, what about my friend with a condition where giving birth would kill her? If she got pregnant and did not abort, they would both die. Add in that due to her age, she is not able to have her Uterus removed in America.

Kinda along the same lines; a teacher here at the school I work at had a tubal pregnancy a number of years ago. I don't know that many details since her English and my Korean are both pretty bad, but she said she had no choice but to have the pregnancy and her Fallopian Tubes removed. The fetus was probably alive at the time, but the tubes either had burst or would soon burst, making the pregnancy non-viable and life threatening for the woman. There is no way to "move" that fetus from the tube into the uterus, so there was no way possible for that child to be born. If she had not had an abortion, she and the baby would have died. She is now going through IVF to conceive a child, and there you have possibilities of need for abortion as well. Should the doctors implant more than 2-3 embryos, and all of them survive, there is a distinct possibility that a "selective reduction" would be needed to ensure the health of both the mother and the other fetuses. You also have with IVF the issue of unused embryos; once the parents have enough kids, what will happen to the extras they have frozen? Would it be murder for the clinic to discard those embryos or to use them for reserch? It's not like they could give the embryos away, there would be so many legal issues with that...

I feel the analogy of a Cake is the closest to how I feel about abortion/pregnancy. Until the fetus can survive outside the womb, I don't think it can be considered truely human and has any rights of its own. I personally think that abortion is a bad thing, and that women shouldn't abort unless it's medically necissary, but that's just a moral feeling on my part and I would never tell any woman she doesn't have the right to do it. I've had a number of friends who were adopted, and I feel that more unwanted pregnancies should be carried to term and then the newborns adopted out to some of the many infertile couples who are seeking IVF and similar precedures which cost many many times more than a normal pregnancy would cost.

[hey]

obviously you didn't read the "guy stabs his bully" thread

I said other than plow.

[BaneTheBrawler]

I've always thought it odd that the people who loudly claim to be "pro-life" are often the same people who vehemently support the death penalty. It just seems like a strange pair of soundbites to cling to. I'm sure someone's said that already, but the "life begins at conception" line reminded me of it.

[Yugl]

...what? I can't imagine anyone (other than plow) thinking otherwise. You would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks you should just lay down and die before killing someone in self defense, for example.

That was a poorly written expression of what I wanted to get at, but it's too late for me to begin trying to grasp at what I meant. It suffices to say that I agree with how he plans to rebuttal.

[Pirian]

I've always thought it odd that the people who loudly claim to be "pro-life" are often the same people who vehemently support the death penalty. It just seems like a strange pair of soundbites to cling to. I'm sure someone's said that already, but the "life begins at conception" line reminded me of it.

Gotta keep em alive so you can kill em later.

[archibaldcrane]

I lol at the "live outside the womb" standard, as if a 1 day old or one year old could survive outside the womb on its own.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[Pirian]

I lol at the "live outside the womb" standard, as if a 1 day old or one year old could survive outside the womb on its own.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

Yeah, and as if you couldn't be frozen and then thawed for later use.

Also, a 1 day old doesn't need to be attached in order to live

[Pirian]

Also, I know that you can only freeze/thaw a zygote/embryo, but so I guess that comment was more directed toward your "from conception" line

[Sera]

Your God hates you.

Come on zealot, everyone knows God only makes the people he hates gay.








God. Ha. I can't even keep a straight face.

Anyway why are you all wasting your time with this fool? Abortion threads are the one thread I won't seriously engage in because its a joke. I don't need to defend my actions to anyone. My choice, my body. Period. I'm not an incubator. I don't have any obligation to do or grow any damn thing I don't want to. That doesn't require debate. Anyone who thinks making abortion illegal will stop them from happening is stunningly idiotic. Women will do whatever they want, law or not, as they have always done, but making it illegal just makes it unsafe, it doesn't "save" any children. They'll get abortions no matter what. It just kills or maims your women.

So, people who want to outlaw abortions don't want to save children, they want to punish women. Period.

[Kohan]

Anyway why are you all wasting your time with this fool? Abortion threads are the one thread I won't seriously engage in because its a joke.

Personally, I take consuming infants very seriously, and I think you should, too.

Hell, it's already becoming socially acceptable, and even fashionable. This revolution isn't coming, folks: it's already here.

[Ashmada]

Disclaimer: I'm going to sound like a conspiracy theorist, here. I hate that fact, but it's unavoidable.

Anyway why are you all wasting your time with this fool? Abortion threads are the one thread I won't seriously engage in because its a joke. I don't need to defend my actions to anyone. My choice, my body. Period. I'm not an incubator. I don't have any obligation to do or grow any damn thing I don't want to. That doesn't require debate. Anyone who thinks making abortion illegal will stop them from happening is stunningly idiotic. Women will do whatever they want, law or not, as they have always done, but making it illegal just makes it unsafe, it doesn't "save" any children. They'll get abortions no matter what. It just kills or maims your women.

Do you really think that's the point? Consider how this whole abortion thing started. Why has it become a big issue?

There are 2 kinds of anti-abortionists:
- the average brainwashed idiot parroting the nonsensical rhethoric he's been fed.
- the church leaders who know this is a foot in the door, the first (well, not really "first") step towards theocracy.

The second category doesn't care if you have an abortion or not. They care whether they can pass their religious laws or not, indirectly enforce their will upon the masses (compliant and non-compliant alike) or not.
Abortion is just a convenient issue to sensationalise: play on the emotions of the followers, mention some vague verse and you've got a non-issue snowballing into a major political divide, perpetuating your dogma as a major source of political capital.
The worst part is... it's starting over here, too: there was a "pro-life" march in Brussels not long ago, they came from all over the continent.

[Sera]

Personally, I take consuming infants very seriously, and I think you should, too.

Hell, it's already becoming socially acceptable, and even fashionable. This revolution isn't coming, folks: it's already here.

Can you blame us? They're just so tender... Juicy... Delicious.

[Psion]

The way i see it, a baby is like a masterpiece. killing one would be akin to destroying something like the mona lisa, and you'd better have some pretty damn good reasons for doing so. (an example would be a baby that is born brain dead and has no hope of recovery.) A fetus, however, is like a canvas that is slowly being painted on, worked on till it eventually becomes another masterpiece. at first it's just a blank piece of cloth, then it slowly becomes more and more beautiful as time goes on, having the potential to become another work of art. however, not all canvases become works of art. artists make mistakes, and sometimes thing's just don't turn out well enough to be able to finish it. Likewise, not all parents are able to complete a work of art known as a human child, for various reasons. Sometimes the pregnancy was accidental, and they don't have the financial means to raise their baby in a loving home and see to its needs. sometimes it was due to the raping of a teenage girl, and she has no way to take care of the baby, and would find it difficult or impossible to raise the child with love, because of the trauma associated with the rape and it would constantly remind her of it. Sometimes the mother would die if she gave birth. Sometimes the baby would be born with a horribly crippling condition. There are very many reasons to have an abortion, and none of them are easy choices by the mother. No one want's to destroy a work of art in progress, but sometimes there are reasons good enough to do so.

Of course, the later you wait, the more difficult it is to do, as eventually the fetus develops a mind and starts to become self aware. at this point, i agree that abortions shouldn't be performed, unless it is required to save the mothers life, or the baby will be born brain dead, or some other seriously important reason. But this is already the case. abortions become harder and harder to get the longer you wait, for good reasons.

I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but killing an undeveloped fetus is nowhere near the same as killing a baby. It's potential vs reality. You cannot fit a conciousness into something that doesn't yet have a brain to hold it, just like you can't fill a vessel with water if it's still a ball of clay. it needs time to be shaped first into a suitable form.

[Sera]

... And sometimes the woman does not want to have a baby for whatever fucking reason. Again, women aren't your fucking baby incubators. Get that shit right in your heads. Women don't owe an explanation to anyone for their choices regarding their bodies. If I don't want to allow something to use my body as an incubator to grow, I don't fucking have to. Simple as that. I don't care if the damn thing is alive at conception or at 20 weeks. Means nothing to me, it isn't relevant to the question. No one can force me to sustain a parasite. If men could get pregnant we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It wouldn't be a debate.

Outlawing abortion will not stop abortions. Women will still find a way to not support the growth of a parasite they do not want to support. Abortions will still exist. They will always exist. Criminalizing abortion will not save babies, it will kill women.

Criminalizing abortion is a way for stupid Christians (& other religious people who like to push their values upon others) to punish women for doing something they don't agree with, and then call it "god's will" when the women sustain injury or die due to the unsafe procedures that will inevitably be performed even after the prohibition of the practice.

It's not about saving babies, its about controlling women, slut-shaming, and punishing the "wicked." Anyone who believes otherwise is foolish and naive.

[Chun Liroy]

Of course, the later you wait, the more difficult it is to do, as eventually the fetus develops a mind and starts to become self aware. at this point, i agree that abortions shouldn't be performed, unless it is required to save the mothers life, or the baby will be born brain dead, or some other seriously important reason. But this is already the case. abortions become harder and harder to get the longer you wait, for good reasons.

I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but killing an undeveloped fetus is nowhere near the same as killing a baby. It's potential vs reality. You cannot fit a conciousness into something that doesn't yet have a brain to hold it, just like you can't fill a vessel with water if it's still a ball of clay. it needs time to be shaped first into a suitable form.

If you are going to put forth the opinion of something as abstract as self-awareness then you have to define the context or requirements for self-awareness. So I ask you, what is your definition of self-awareness?

Also, rofl at saying that "What is life" is a philosophical question. It's actually very rigidly defined to the point that Viruses aren't considered forms of life. I didn't really agree with Archie at first and tried to think of a viable reason why, and I couldn't think of anything, so I accept his explanation. Anything with 23 sets of chromosomes is human from a genetic stand point. Anything that falls under the definition of life is considered life, therefore life does begin at conception, and it is human from conception from a scientific standpoint.