"We looked to World of Warcraft"

[Spider-Dan]

I don't think WoW invented low-lag gameplay, nor do they have some sort of monopoly on "improved combat."

I am not so cynical as to believe that the only good way to make combat or UI has already been invented and the only possible choice is to clone. Tanaka tried something different, but (in addition to his stupid design choices) he was undermined by his insistence on building the game around combating RMT (i.e. server-side UI). I think there's still room for a fresh battle system that isn't created with fatal design flaws from the start.

Again, I'm not a UI or battle designer, so I can't say exactly what 2.0 should be. I guess the best question to ask is, which post-WoW MMO has had the most sustained success, and what did that MMO do differently than WoW?

[Churchill]

RMT and bots/3p apps have done nothing but prolong the life/enjoyment of other MMO's. I always find that such a ridiculous goal (to combat RMT/apps)

My brother runs with 15 different programs open to play WoW, I couldn't imagine running around in FFXI without windower/clipper/JA0Wait.

[Raldo]

While bots and 3rd party apps are fun and all for the person using them, they are not for anyone else, and saying that someone needs to have such and such app in order to be proficient at a game is just plain stupid. BG may be a hive of people that use them, but you may be surprised at the number of people that do not.

I'm not sure how you ever came to the conclusion that RMT prolongs the life or enjoyment of MMOs.

[Lucavi]

I don't think WoW invented low-lag gameplay, nor do they have some sort of monopoly on "improved combat."

I am not so cynical as to believe that the only good way to make combat or UI has already been invented and the only possible choice is to clone. Tanaka tried something different, but (in addition to his stupid design choices) he was undermined by his insistence on building the game around combating RMT (i.e. server-side UI). I think there's still room for a fresh battle system that isn't created with fatal design flaws from the start.

Again, I'm not a UI or battle designer, so I can't say exactly what 2.0 should be. I guess the best question to ask is, which post-WoW MMO has had the most sustained success, and what did that MMO do differently than WoW?

No game had imput responsiveness like WoW, so, yeah, they really did invent the style that is so widely adopted nowadays. If you want to go back to another method, you also have to go back to boring boss fights that require little to no movement on the part of the player, and laggy and unresponsive PVP that cannot be taken seriously as any form of competitive combat. SE has just now grasped the age-old "don't stand in the fire" concept, and that didn't come around until Yoshi-P, a Blizzard fanboy, started working on salvaging Tanaka's trainwreck. Ironic, or is it?

You claim that Tanaka tried something different, but he did not. His menus were the same as any modern offline FF title, with a completely botched attempt at including action bars. You access your menu just like the old days. You've got the same bland default blue color scheme for the menus, straight out of FFVI. Looking through your item or equipment menu is just like stepping into a time portal to FFVII. The shortcut inputs to individual menus and the battle action bars are the only thing"new", and even those have a caveat. That's not trying something new: that's trying something new for SE. Huge, huge difference.

No one here is suggesting that SE need produce a clone of WoW's UI, and, as we've already seen from them, they will not produce a clone. Even you, however, have no tangible ideas to put out. Your stance in this thread seems to be to bash WoW's systems while including none of your own, surely brilliant, ideas. Why is that?

2.0 has a chance to really be something; a chance to really turn heads; especially those of ex-players tired of the same-ol' same-ol' from SE. A combination of SE-quality graphics and plot and battle-tested modern MMO designs. Thankfully, it seems that Yoshi-P has given us a mountain of evidence to support the notion that he is nothing like Tanaka and is more than willing to draw not just from what is popular, but what is actually good. I look forward to hearing your future posts, SD, about how awesome 2.0 is with all of its WoW-isms, just like I enjoyed hearing you pull an about-face on the success of XIV after launch, like I and others had so vehemently predicted as far back as CB2. As I enjoyed hearing Mioko viciously backpeddle on his assessment of XIV, so to will I enjoy hearing you backpeddle on your "opinions" about what outside influences can do to your precious FF title.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Many people also don't even know 3rd party apps exist. Casual gamers don't really read or research anything about their game so the information doesn't reach them. Just sayin' cuz you can't simply compare those with to those without if the latter is mostly unaware.

[Churchill]

Wrote a bunch of RMT related stuff, doesn't matter lol. Argument is moot, people will deny or oppose RMT even while having used it before.

Also this idea that 3p apps are somehow intrusive to other peoples gameplay is asinine at best. It's a very FFXI mindset. In WOW people ask you to gather at a spot to get your gear checked before doing a raid and post parse logs so people know you don't suck. In FFXI/XIV, we hold hands and make love under willow trees during the summer time.

[Spider-Dan]

No game had imput responsiveness like WoW, so, yeah, they really did invent the style that is so widely adopted nowadays.

Are you seriously crediting WoW with being the first online game with "input responsiveness," to the point that any MMO that does not have significant input lag is necessarily cloning WoW?

Seriously, you need to take a step back. Your objection is silly and easily sidestepped; WoW did not invent low-latency gameplay, and while it may* have been the first major MMO that placed an emphasis on it, low-latency gameplay does not make an MMO a WoW clone any more than 3D graphics makes it an EQ clone.

*I say "may" because I don't feel like taking the time to research an MMO that existed prior to 2004 in which real-time positioning was important. This does not mean I agree that none existed.

You claim that Tanaka tried something different, but he did not. His menus were the same as any modern offline FF title, with a completely botched attempt at including action bars.

Really? Which modern offline FF title has click-and-dragable widgets? Which one has multiple customizable chat windows?

Even if I agreed with you (and I don't), if Tanaka chose to implement offline FF menus in an MMO, that is still doing something different from the WoW clones, which is the entire point. I am not (and was never) talking about doing something "different" from the console FFs; I was talking about doing something different from WoW.

Even you, however, have no tangible ideas to put out. Your stance in this thread seems to be to bash WoW's systems while including none of your own, surely brilliant, ideas. Why is that?

As I already said, I'm not in UI design, nor am I a battle programmer; why are you asking me to provide a replacement? If I say, "Wow, the new Corolla is bland and drives sluggishly," is your response to ask me to design a better one or shut my mouth?

I look forward to hearing your future posts, SD, about how awesome 2.0 is with all of its WoW-isms, just like I enjoyed hearing you pull an about-face on the success of XIV after launch, like I and others had so vehemently predicted as far back as CB2.

Dear Mr. Nostradamus: if you were so certain that XIV would be a failure "as far back as CB2," then surely you did not purchase the game?

Because if you bought the game, you're just another internet naysayer chanting failure from hindsight. The fact that you continued to make posts about this game for the year between retail release and 2.0's announcement says all that needs to be said about how much you believed your own prediction.

[Tricksy]

I think Spider Dan has a healthy dose of realism. We will see how close they bring FF14 to WoW. If it's too close the "really something" Lucavi thinks its going to be is a "flop" and they'll deserve it.

Churchill, I love how you call us FF11 players that cared about one another "hand holders"...because FF11 had one of the best communities I have ever experienced. Of course there were people like you... Not to mention that FF11 players did vet one another and that an integral part to the game in the past was a good reputation. But you keep at it.

On a side note Natalie Portman is a goddess and if anyones c*nt tasted like heaven, it would be hers.

[Raldo]

Also this idea that 3p apps are somehow intrusive to other peoples gameplay is asinine at best. It's a very FFXI mindset. In WOW people ask you to gather at a spot to get your gear checked before doing a raid and post parse logs so people know you don't suck. In FFXI/XIV, we hold hands and make love under willow trees during the summer time.

I have no problem with 3rd party apps until they become an expected standard. In FFXI, people expected me to be able to see everyone's TP so we could weaponskill without communication, but I never used windower, so I couldn't. Somehow it's my problem that I'm not using a third party app? That's the kind of bullshit that makes third party apps annoying.

If what you post about WoW is true and widespread, that would make me not want to play the game.

[Kurokikaze]

I think Spider Dan has a healthy dose of realism. We will see how close they bring FF14 to WoW. If it's too close the "really something" Lucavi thinks its going to be is a "flop" and they'll deserve it.

Churchill, I love how you call us FF11 players that cared about one another "hand holders"...because FF11 had one of the best communities I have ever experienced. Of course there were people like you... Not to mention that FF11 players did vet one another and that an integral part to the game in the past was a good reputation. But you keep at it.

On a side note Natalie Portman is a goddess and if anyones c*nt tasted like heaven, it would be hers.

Best communities? lol... Everyone in Midgardsormr that wasn't in the same LS hated each other.

[Raldo]

Hardcore endgamers, perhaps, but what's new there? I was on midgard for 6 years and never had any issues with rampant douchebaggery.

[Kurokikaze]

Hardcore endgamers, perhaps, but what's new there? I was on midgard for 6 years and never had any issues with rampant douchebaggery.

Then I'd say you're lucky. lol

[Rocl]

Did people in rival shells really hate each other? I mean I hated them at camps, but never as people. I don't recall any true heartfelt grudges between Bahamut LS except when it came to regional differences, really. All NAs hated the JP and UAE LS, all JP hated the UAE and NA LS, all UAE hated the NA LS, and EUs didn't do shit worth noticing. There'd be requisite shit-talking and cries of "SLAIN!" when a rival LS would claim, but it never left Aery. I think people either over exaggerate or were more in the minority than they think ;\

Then again I guess I didn't do much HNM after WoTG.

[Aratharn]

Hardcore endgamers, perhaps, but what's new there? I was on midgard for 6 years and never had any issues with rampant douchebaggery.

They were confined to a linkshell called "Pandavas."

[Spider-Dan]

Best communities? lol... Everyone in Midgardsormr that wasn't in the same LS hated each other.

Based on my experiences on Midgard (and XI in general), this mindset was restricted to people who camp kings.

I refused to camp kings, never joined a LS that focused on it, and I had a jolly good time with the XI community.

[Aratharn]

Didn't know we had this many Midgard vets!