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  1. #101
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blarg View Post
    put butter on toast's back and then drop it
    Ex and I joked about this many a time :3

  2. #102
    Chram
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    I'm stealing vandole's cat training thread. I'm having issues with one of my cats. I'll start from the beginning, and hopefully somebody will have some good suggestions.

    I have a 2 cats and a dog, and a new baby (9 months old). All of the pets are 6 yrs old. The cats were adopted as kittens, the dog at just under a year. We've had them all for over 5 years. One of the cats, a tortie, started peeing outside her litter box not too long after moving into our new house 5 yrs ago. At first this was once in a while. Every now and then when we'd forget to scoop litter for a few days, she'd remind us. Over time, it became more frequent. We tried multiple times, unsuccessfully, to retrain her by putting her in a bathroom by herself with just a clean litterbox. This sometimes worked for a few weeks or a month or two, but then we'd find a spot in a corner.

    Fast forward a few years. We knew we had a kid on the way, and determined to retrain her again, and get new carpet (ours was disgusting and old, and smelled like cat urine everywhere). She peed on our new carpet within a few days of getting it.

    We have had her checked at a vet and there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with her. We used 3 litter boxes at one point, but since that didn't seem to help dropped back to 2. We have used various versions of "cat attract" litter and powder. Not only does she persist in peeing everywhere, we occasionally find poop in the floor as well.

    She'll use the litter box consistently if A) it's clean and B) I'm in the room. Since one is located in my office, I do see her using it when I'm in here. However we find a pee spot that she leaves in a random corner almost every morning. I scoop litter every single day.

    The last straw was a few weeks ago. I cleaned both litter boxes before bed, and woke up less than 6 hours later to find a big pile of poop right in the middle of my bathroom floor. Now that I've got a crawling baby, I cannot have her peeing in the floor, much less pooping. At that point we dumped her outside and purchased her an outdoor cat house/bed.

    I hated to do this. She's "my" cat. I do not want to take her to a shelter where they will inevitably put her down (cats that don't get adopted within 2 days or so get put down at the shelters here). I feel like we tried nearly everything to get her to go in the right place in the house for over 5 years. So now that she's basically going to be an outdoor cat, I'd like to keep her as safe as possible, but I'm somewhat at a loss. I figured she'd be safe outside, at least temporarily while she doesn't wander far from the house.

    Tonight I heard her howling and hissing outside the back door, apparently finding one of our neighborhood strays, so I let her in. She will spend tonight in a bathroom with her own litter box. At this point, since I don't anticipate being able to litter box train her after the previous failed attempts, I think the safest thing to do is to build her a cat run of some kind in the back yard for her to live in. It needs to be big enough that she doesn't feel like she lives in a cage, but small enough that I can afford to build it. I am quite handy with woodworking tools, but I don't have any metalworking (ie, welding) experience.

    My questions are:
    Is it safe to keep her in a cat pen outside permanently as long as she has shelter (4 walls, with heat for the winter), food, water, etc?
    How big should it be in length and width? I'll shoot for 6 or 8 ft high so that there is room for multiple levels.
    Assuming I make a wood frame with wire fencing over it, what kind of wire is good for this? I don't want something flimsy, but I know chainlink is way overkill.
    What does a penned cat need to use the bathroom? Is there some kind of outdoor litter box?
    If you just have a dirt pit to use, does rain clean it or does it need to be cleaned manually?
    I'd like to leave the bottom open, but that seems like disaster waiting to happen (she could dig out, something else could dig in, and it would be a pain to trim greenery inside the cage). Is the best bet to just make a solid floor made of some outdoor-proof decking material?
    If this is the case, then I'm guessing there definitely has to be some kind of litter box?
    I wouldn't mind doing a kind of cat condo with carpet and scratching posts as long as it's shielded from the weather. Is it even possible to shield something enough from weather to keep carpet from rotting in a few months?

    Is this all a terrible idea, and I should just try to find a new home for her?

    And yes, I tried a water bottle. It worked to keep her off the counters, but doesn't work when I'm not around to show here where not to pee and shit.

  3. #103
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    I don't know if you want to revisit training, but consider my quick story. When I got Kalashnikov he would refuse to use the box to poop. Always pooped in corners. I thought it was a lost cause as well. I had some time off work so I made it a point to train him over the time I had. I went to feeding him twice a day (to make more poop!) and would feed him, then lock him in the bathroom with the catbox. I would praise him and give him a treat for a successful poopinthebox. I also watched him all day. If he strayed to any corner, he would go to the box and I'd stay with him until he would either poop or I felt he really didn't need to go. If he returned to the corners after not pooping in the box, I would sit in the bathroom with him, keeping him in the box, while I played DS or read a book.

    Relitevily speaking, it took less time to train him then I thought. But I attribute that to pretty much having a week off, and being able to give him a ton of attention. Your experience might be different since your cat is considerably older, but I bet with a lot of attention you could retrain.

    I also hate the idea of sticking a indoor cat, outside, away from people and other cats. They are social creatures and I can't imagine she would be happy...



    Pleasedon'tstickmeoutsidecat.jpg

  4. #104
    Chram
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    I sincerely doubt I'd have that kind of time to try retraining yet again. I work 60 hours a week and have a 9month old baby to take care of now. The only other viable option is to re-adopt her and hope the new family aren't inbred animal-torturing assholes.

    I like the outdoor cat-run enclosure idea better.

    Since I'm looking at custom-building an 8x12 ft enclosure for her that will be 8ft high, she'll probably like being outside better than in. She doesn't get along with the other cat (the other cat is a stuck-up bitch that hardly lets us pet her). I'm planning on having a sleeping area in a separate box connected with a tunnel along with all sorts of levels and other stuff to climb and scratch and play on. The only shitty part will be when it's 100 degrees outside, and I'll probably keep her in my bathroom for those days. I also plan on putting a few bird houses/feeders out there for her to have something to look at. Additionally, I'm planning on locating it next to my house, outside my office. This way I'll be able to just open my window and she can come in while letting the other cat outside for some sun and play. Maybe I'll even plant her some catnip.

  5. #105
    The Shitlord
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    How permanent are we talking? If you're saying spending 100% of her time in a cage, you should just adopt her out. Cats are not meant to be locked up all the time. If you're going to use this thing as a giant, comfy kennel, then that's fine. Let her out while you're home, put her back in when you go to sleep/leave.

  6. #106
    Chram
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    She'll be spending all the time when I'm not home and when I'm asleep in it. I'm planning on having a direct entry into the house through a window it'll be situated in front of. I also plan to have a few lounging shelves that she can lay on and look into the house when we have the blinds open. The goal is not to just put her out there and forget her. I just can't keep her in the house any longer with her bad habits. She's otherwise a great cat. She's very friendly and affectionate; she likes everybody.

  7. #107
    Hydra
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    I'm not a fan of the cat condo thing especially with a 5 year old indoor cat. If she uses the book when your in the room it sounds like to me shes afraid to sue it when your not there. Are you litter boxes open or closed?

    If they are open you might try switching to closed litter box.

    What litters have you tried? Some cats really are just stupid about what they like to poop in. I had a cat once that would only poop in mulch.

  8. #108
    Ridill
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    A cage for a cat is a really, really terrible idea.

    You should try one of these:

    http://www.amazon.com/Sentry-Behavio.../dp/B0026JAKWG

    Even better, you can get the same thing in dispensers that are like glade plugins or something, they do the same thing but it might also make the unfriendly cat a little nicer as well.

    It's most likely all about stress, animals just aren't prepared to handle it well. Even if it's a sign of something more serious, it may well be an indirect symptom of something, and still just be caused by the stress from that. You should definitely keep an eye out, although it sounds like there's plenty of outside source possibilities.

    The things are pretty nice too, I use a collar on my cat and she smells like lavender for like 2 weeks or more when I put a new one on.


    oh and just anecdotal: my cat was spraying (the female version of marking territory basically, just little bits of pee in specific spots), which is really strange for a spayed cat, and I couldn't solve it for the longest time, collar fixed it right up

  9. #109
    Chram
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    You guys both say that you don't like the idea of the cat condo, but don't really say any reason why.

    @alolbont, I have 3 litter boxes, all with some kind of cover to keep the dog out. Not that I'm any expert on cat behavior (obviously), but she doesn't really seem to exhibit any "fear" or "scared" when using the bathroom anywhere. She seems to just pee wherever she feels like it. If I'm in the room, and the litter box is empty, she'll use it. I've used numerous kinds of litter, from scented to unscented, natural clay to the normal stuff.

    @plow, whats the point of that? She *usually* will use a litter box if it's completely empty. I just can't go around cleaning the things as soon as a cat touches them. While I'll grant that stress may be a factor, it seems she's just really, really picky.

    Keep in mind that the "cage" is going to be a 12ftx8ft, 8ft tall kitty aviary. I'm going to have plants in it, lots of things to jump and climb and lounge on, and more-than-adequate shelter. I really don't see how it's worse than the people that keep their cats locked up in bedrooms or bathrooms all the time. And she'll be inside with us regularly. I was thinking of building one of these just to get them some fresh air as it was. She just accelerated my project build time.

  10. #110
    The Shitlord
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    As long as you're giving her significant family time, I don't see anything wrong with the hutch. You'll want to insulate it and allow for ventilation in summer, heating in winter.

  11. #111
    Chram
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    I am planning on providing some kind of heating in the winter (although, in SC, we don't get much of a winter). For the really hot days of summer, I'll probably have to bring her inside.

  12. #112
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coren View Post
    You guys both say that you don't like the idea of the cat condo, but don't really say any reason why.

    @alolbont, I have 3 litter boxes, all with some kind of cover to keep the dog out. Not that I'm any expert on cat behavior (obviously), but she doesn't really seem to exhibit any "fear" or "scared" when using the bathroom anywhere. She seems to just pee wherever she feels like it. If I'm in the room, and the litter box is empty, she'll use it. I've used numerous kinds of litter, from scented to unscented, natural clay to the normal stuff.

    @plow, whats the point of that? She *usually* will use a litter box if it's completely empty. I just can't go around cleaning the things as soon as a cat touches them. While I'll grant that stress may be a factor, it seems she's just really, really picky.

    Keep in mind that the "cage" is going to be a 12ftx8ft, 8ft tall kitty aviary. I'm going to have plants in it, lots of things to jump and climb and lounge on, and more-than-adequate shelter. I really don't see how it's worse than the people that keep their cats locked up in bedrooms or bathrooms all the time. And she'll be inside with us regularly. I was thinking of building one of these just to get them some fresh air as it was. She just accelerated my project build time.
    Keeping it locked up in a bathroom is just as bad. Cats just aren't made to be confined to a small area, physically or mentally.

    As for what the point of a stress collar is, I'm really not sure how I can explain it better. When an animal that's been ok in terms of using the right bathroom in the past has changed, it's almost always a stress issue, either from outside sources (something that changed when you moved), or due to some kind of illness (it's common for the stress from digestive issues to make animals pee/poo in strange places even if it has nothing to do with the illness itself).

    Finally, one of the biggest problems you're going to face is that if you use screen, she's going to tear it up, if you use chicken wire, she's going to hurt herself. Whatever you use, before long she's going to do absolutely anything and everything she can possibly think of to try to get out.

    You can actually get enclosures like what you're talking about that are safe, but they're made for you to let an indoor cat get outside a bit, not to actually keep an animal in them full time.


    In the end, you can try your enclosure and make the rest of your cat's life suck, or you can try to find a new home for it. Or you could try a $10 collar that might fix it all, but if you're willing to put a cat in a cage outside for life, I guess you don't really care that much.

  13. #113
    Chram
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    You're absolutely right. I'm a heartless asshole. That's why I'm going through a lot of fucking trouble trying to keep her safe outside (I hear some cats even *gasp* like the outdoors). I'm not just dumping her on a shelter. I'm not taking her to be put down. I'm not just dumping her in the backyard to fend for herself against the other neighborhood cats. Etc etc.

    The collars have pretty shittastic reviews. It may have worked for you, but apparently you got lucky. It looks like there are a ton of people complaining about the fact that they're $10 a month indefinitely, they make the cat high, that the powder shit literally falls off, that it is crappy construction (can't adjust it without having the powder fall off), and that it's not a breakaway collar like cats are supposed to wear.

    Additionally, what the fuck don't you understand about letting her in while we're home? I'm not going to put her out there and ignore her for the next 10 years. I just can't let her have the run of the house while we're not here to supervise.

  14. #114
    FOR FUCKS' SAKE !!!
    FOR FUCKS' SAKE !!!
    FUCK FUCK FUCK

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    I took my cat in when he was around 4-5months old according to my vet. Took him awhile to adjust to my house and dog. Around 2-3 weeks. After a couple months of him comfortably roaming the house, learning where to go do his business etc... I started bringing him along with the dog walks. First few times I carried him along. Then I let him start roaming a bit with a leash on. Then leash off. Now after the dog walks, 90% of the time he wants to stay outside some more so I let him be. I was thinking of installing a pet door but then he learned to jump onto the window where I'm usually right by (next to the computer) if he wants in or get my attention.



    *Let me in or I swear to the nine feline Gods I will break you.*

  15. #115
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    If your cat is extremely picky and choose not to go if there's anything in there, try buying one of those self-cleaning litter boxes.

    Also, have you tried removing the cover of the litter boxes? I know the dog and the baby can get in to them then, but just as an experiment to see if she's willing to use them more often. I know some cats are afraid of using litter boxes with covers on them - whereas some are "shy" and don't like going if it doesn't have a cover.

    Finally; how many places in the house does she usually pee/poop in? In all rooms, a specific room, specific places, or all over? Try making a mental note about it, and put litter boxes on top of where she usually goes. Cats usually have some specific places where they like to go, and the problem can usually be solved by putting a litter box on top of where they pee/poo.

    Usually when adult cats don't use the litter box it's a sign of stress and/or disease.

  16. #116
    Chram
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    We bought a self cleaning, but it's one of the continuously-running ones, and the motor sounded like it was going to explode, and was extremely hot to the touch after a couple hours of running. So I put it on a lamp timer to run for about 30 min a few times a day. This helped to an extent.

    I've tried noncovered; it didn't help.

    She pees in nearly every room. The spare bedroom, the dining room (alllllll over the dining room, against all the walls), various walls/corners in my living room (including on my surge suppressor for my AV stuff), both bathrooms, and my bedroom. I've tried moving the litter box to some of those spots to no avail.

    Again, I think she's just picky. If the litter box is spotless, or if it's mostly spotless and she's the only cat to use it, she usually will go in there. If it's got more than a day (sometimes 2) in it, or if the other cat has used it, she'll go on the floor next to it.

    She also uses any and all clothing, rugs, or bags on the floor as a litter box. She's used piles of clean laundry as well. She peed in the dogs bed a number of times as well.

  17. #117
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coren View Post
    You're absolutely right. I'm a heartless asshole. That's why I'm going through a lot of fucking trouble trying to keep her safe outside (I hear some cats even *gasp* like the outdoors). I'm not just dumping her on a shelter. I'm not taking her to be put down. I'm not just dumping her in the backyard to fend for herself against the other neighborhood cats. Etc etc.
    Again, caging her is worse than any of those options. Domesticated cats are not made to be caged extensively.


    The collars have pretty shittastic reviews. It may have worked for you, but apparently you got lucky. It looks like there are a ton of people complaining about the fact that they're $10 a month indefinitely, they make the cat high, that the powder shit literally falls off, that it is crappy construction (can't adjust it without having the powder fall off), and that it's not a breakaway collar like cats are supposed to wear.
    Well, I'll just disregard the fact that you clearly only read the negative reviews, even though there's well over 100 positive ones.

    First off, I've never seen it "make the cat high," but ok, it might overdo the calming for some animals. Fortunately if that's the case you can *gasp* take it off.

    The powder does, indeed, fall off. Know why? Because that's what it's designed to do. If any of the idiots complaining about that had actually read the box, they'd be aware the powder is not the active ingredient, it's to increase the active ingredient's ability to spread from the collar and apply.

    The non-breakaway factor does kind of suck, but I've been using flea collars like this for 25 years without issue even on barn cats. Just make sure it's fitted properly and there shouldn't be problems. If you're super concerned, you could use a nail file or something to drastically thin some spots to make them break easily if it gets caught on something.

    Additionally, what the fuck don't you understand about letting her in while we're home? I'm not going to put her out there and ignore her for the next 10 years. I just can't let her have the run of the house while we're not here to supervise.
    What the fuck don't you understand about people trying to help? Cats are not cage animals. It's that simple.


    Anyway, there's also sprays you can get to discourage her from using certain areas and shit, among other options I'd be happy to provide info on, but at this point it's clear you don't want help, you want someone to support your terrible idea of keeping a cat in a dog pen.

  18. #118
    2600klub
    ǝƃuɐɥɔ ǝlʇıʇ ɥʇ01 ǝɥʇ ǝʞıl sı sıɥʇ ƃɯo ʎuunɟ ƃuıɥʇǝɯos ɥɐlq ɥɐlq ɥɐlq ǝɥ ǝǝǝǝǝǝǝlopuɐʌ puǝıɹɟ ʇsǝq s,poƃ ǝsɹoɥ ǝɥʇ sı ǝɥ ǝǝǝǝǝǝlopuɐʌ

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    plow goin in hard with the tru facts.


    I'm at my parents for the weekend and i've kept maeby in my bedroom the whole time. She's been perfectly cool with it and in 6 hours she'll be back to full roam at my apartment. No bigs.

  19. #119
    Hydra
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    Its kinda sounding like a territorial issue to me if shes peeing on everything. Have you tried removing your other animals for a few days to see what she does??

    You could also look at training her to use the toilet instead of a box. Since it would remain clean for her.

  20. #120
    Chram
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    Putting her in a room-size cage is better than just dumping her outside to fend for herself or having her put down? I should probably just stop wasting my time discussing this right now....

    I read a LOT of the reviews on that collar. It has just barely over a 50% review (figure you cannot give a 0-star review, so it has 2.5 out of 4). A lot of the negative ones were major issues. Only a few of the positive ones mention fixing pee problems. I did like the one guy's suggestion to cut it into pieces and attach that to their normal collar.

    Do you think I'm taking this lightly? I have tried almost every suggestion you can find online to fix her problem, including attempts at retraining her numerous times, adding litter boxes (I had 4 at one point in a 2000sq ft house), using an automatic litter box, isolating her from the other animals, sprays that supposedly keep her from peeing in certain places (unless I douse the entire house in it, she just found new spots), leash-training her to go outside and pee (failed), cleaning her messes thoroughly with enzyme shit (again, just goes in new corners), etc. Unless you are volunteering to adopt her, putting her outside or taking her to a shelter are the two realistic options I have left. Since I don't want to take her to a shelter where she'll be put down in a few days (the no-kill ones around here are overfull), keeping her in a super-sized cat pen is as good as I can do to keep her from pissing on my house AND to keep her safe.

    I didn't make the original post so that a few people that know everything in the universe could come lecture me. It was basically to solicit advice on how to make the best, most comfortable cage/pen possible. I'm well aware that having free run of the house is better, but she blew that chance after peeing on my shit for 5 years straight, despite my best efforts. My kid takes precedence over the cat.

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