Is/n't Tesla literally/figuratively crashing?

[RKenshin]

It doesn't matter if it's 8 hours or 1 hour, it's still more than "a couple of minutes"

I don't understand your logic here, short of being purposefully obtuse or simply trolling people.

You obviously are going to have completely different refueling habits with an electric car, as opposed to a gas car. You're comparing the two while keeping that the same, which is just plain wrong.

This would be like me arguing that gas cars are inconvenient because it means that I would have to go to a gas station every day of the week to fill-up before the day ends, even though I only drive 50m/day. Oh wait, no, that's not how it works... with a gas car, you refill whenever you're close to empty; unlike an electric where you refill every night. Get it?

With an electric car the expected practice is fill up every night. In fact, recent car and battery designs encourage and work best when you're refilling at any/every opportunity (they don't work like old cell phones where you have to use the battery to empty).

That in mind, how is your point at all a realistic, major concern?

Short of obscure exceptions, the overwhelming majority of people would have their needs met perfectly for 99% of their driving by simply having a 200m driving range every day.... And then allowing it to recharge overnight. Do you not believe that to be true?

[hey]

Short of obscure exceptions, the overwhelming majority of people would have their needs met perfectly for 99% of their driving by simply having a 200m driving range every day.... And then allowing it to recharge overnight. Do you not believe that to be true?

It's even better than that though. You're not getting 200m per day, you're getting 200m on a full battery. Which can easily allow you to drive way more than that, if you aren't driving constantly. You drove 150 miles to/from work, then need to drive another 75 more a few hours later? No problem, just plug your car in when you get home, and it'll have charged plenty to get you where you need to go.

[dejet]

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.

[Cantih]

If you combined it with rentals, or maybe even the self driving car stuff, forget worrying about keeping it charged (or even owning/parking the damn thing).
Pony Express stations all over, just call up/swap cars whenever needed.

[RKenshin]

im still loling at someone thinking they can use this power to move 10+ ton trucks. lulz they pull less then 1 mil to the gallon at times, you think a plug in will last?

And lets not even think about the size of the batteries. holly hell. LOL we are a long ways off from anything that is Industrial can be changed at all.

Even Obama had to face that fact lol

The national average MPG for 18-wheelers is actually about 5 MPG, if it matters. And hybrid trucks are actually very much feasible (trucks carry a ton of kinetic energy)... although I don't disagree that the idea of a full-electric truck at current technology is unrealistic.

[Coren]

When he made US auto lines have an average of nearly 55 miles to the gallon by 2025. Trucks that run diesel only have to get to around 10~15(and this is for their line) thus trucks wont have any effect all that much.

lol that line was not to be the focus, just an added jab at ev tech right now. If they can get me from one side of the US to the other side in 20~30min charge someday I would be all for it. That is way far off , I myself have my money on hydrogen powered cars. the swis still backing that?

Current trucks are happy to get 7.5 miles per gallon. Increasing to just 10 is a 33% increase.

I looked up some quick statistics:
There are roughly 240 million cars in the US
There are roughly 2.5 to 3.5 million semi-trucks in the US
The average trucker goes 120k to 150k miles in a year
The average car goes 13k miles in a year

Using these rough figures, you can see that trucks drive about the same number of miles. So, if you increase truck mileage by 33% to 100% (going from 7.5 to 10 or 15), that's a HUGE fuel savings. I'd say that "trucks won't have any effect" is a bit inaccurate.

[Coren]

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.

Unlike gas cars that idle, electric don't expend energy just sitting. Yes you're using battery power to listen to radio and use AC, but it's not like you're burning your MPG just sitting there.

[Cantih]

The national average MPG for 18-wheelers is actually about 5 MPG, if it matters. And hybrid trucks are actually very much feasible (trucks carry a ton of kinetic energy)... although I don't disagree that the idea of a full-electric truck at current technology is unrealistic.

If efficiency goes up, would lining the cargo part of the truck with solar cells do much?

[dejet]

Current trucks are happy to get 7.5 miles per gallon. Increasing to just 10 is a 33% increase.

I looked up some quick statistics:
There are roughly 240 million cars in the US
There are roughly 2.5 to 3.5 million semi-trucks in the US
The average trucker goes 120k to 150k miles in a year
The average car goes 13k miles in a year

Using these rough figures, you can see that trucks drive about the same number of miles. So, if you increase truck mileage by 33% to 100% (going from 7.5 to 10 or 15), that's a HUGE fuel savings. I'd say that "trucks won't have any effect" is a bit inaccurate.

The worry I have is this means trucks have to be taken off the road. You do not just throw a truck out when its trany goes you fix it.

Thanks for finding that. But its the Average, so used trucks that are on the road wont be effected by this. and that is key, 33% is something I feel mac and such producers can on new trucks; This wont really impact much

This however could lead to people sticking with old trucks even longer then they do now. Only time will tell; I still think the effect will be very small.

[RKenshin]

It's even better than that though. You're not getting 200m per day, you're getting 200m on a full battery. Which can easily allow you to drive way more than that, if you aren't driving constantly. You drove 150 miles to/from work, then need to drive another 75 more a few hours later? No problem, just plug your car in when you get home, and it'll have charged plenty to get you where you need to go.

Oh of course, I'm just trying to keep the idea here as simple as possible.

No doubt that it would be incredibly easy to simply plug your car in whenever you got home, if you truly had to drive further later in the day (or whatever). Not entirely unrealistic that the future couldn't have plug-in outlets/stations at stores/restaurants/work places or garages, etc either. But I'd rather not bring anymore unknowns/assumptions to the discussion.

I have a question about this tech. If im stuck onto he LA highway fin rush hour(like millions of others would be) how does that count to my EV miles?

or a snowstorm that snow storm that hits NY once a year at least that makes my 15 mile drive take fing 4 hours...

and you no very well your not getting 200 miles. thats if you dont hit a single stop at all or you dont hit a bump this is a flat road in perfect conditions.

I'm not really sure what your point is here.

Regardless of the answers to your questions, there are 200 million licensed drivers in the United States and most of them don't spend all day in traffic/snow. The nationwide average commute time is 24 minutes.

No one is saying an electric car would work for every person in America, again.

As far as your questions, I have no idea... but I do know that most electric cars convert the kinetic energy from breaking to help recharge the battery while driving.

[dejet]

this is two years old but still is a good read.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...c-range/page-2

they do like the car the ones who test drive it but this line is what is key. NY/FL/CAL all fall into this and would mean that the leaf would fail badly. 90% of America can not get use by today's EV tech. And we need double and I said it was a snow strom, so the heat very likely would be blasting with the speakers playing ~_~;

Spoiler: show

2011 Nissan Leaf Our previous tests have shown that anything from 85 miles to 97 miles is more than normal for a 2011 Nissan Leaf. PluginCar’s Nick Chambers even managed an astonishing 116 miles out his test-drive in a Nissan Leaf.
Drive harshly and make use of every conceivable electrical device in the car and the range will be much less. But unless you live in locations of extreme cold or heat, we’re confident that with a little practice your 2011 Nissan Leaf will show the kind of ranges we’ve experienced thus far.

edit:
im heading to sleep if you want to send me a PM by all means im not attacking it fully. I just feel that the rush to this is not a very good idea. if we can make some decent leaps it could very well be the next tech that powers most of our cars in 20~30 years.

[RKenshin]

I'm confused, 90% of Americans cannot get by with today's EV tech because the driving range is about 20% lower in practice? Is that the case you're making?

I truly can't see how 90% of Americans would regularly need anymore than a 50-60 mile driving range, much less the potential '80' (leaf, based on above assumption) to '160' (model S, based on above assumption). I mean, sure, higher is better of course and the idea of cutting it close is certainly a major downfall of entertaining an EV car... but realistically, even I don't think I could run out of juice in a Leaf. And this is living in the North-East doing a total of 52-miles/1.4hrs of commuting every day. Which is far above the national average.

I get your concerns of course, and heck I'm not much of a green/environmentalist type and likely will hold out on entertaining the idea of an EV until technology improves a bit more (though, the Model S is sexy... just may be a bit too high-priced for me even considering gas costs). But I just think, in all fairness, some of the disadvantages of EV are being a bit over-exaggerated.

[dejet]

last post lol sorry. Your average drive might be 24min(its 29 from where I looked but still you would be right). Yes I can side with you. For daily driving EV can be fine. However take a trip ANYWHERE and you wont get very far. I went and played a game in Cooperstown doubleday field Saturday. Thats 160 miles from my house. If I went in a Model S in the summer I most likely could of made it there maybe lol. This is normal I do this once a month. I bet most people can think of at least one day every few months where even a perfect 200 miles would fail them. And that alone means you need a gas car for that trip(a 30,000 car you cant use).

Any limit is a bad thing. the hotel I stayed at did have a charge station (that some dick gas car was parked in) but that was in Albany another 50 miles or so took me about an hour and a half to drive there. around 500 miles in a day and I very well could side with you and say "Yes EV is what we need to do" that would cover most American needs for everything not just their daily grind job.

Hay that's what everyone wants a 30,000 toy to make it cheaper and better for the world as you make money! Oh wait it would of taken you around 5+ years to save any money(anyone have the real numbers on how long it takes a EV car to pay off itself vs say a 17,000 car that gets 31Mpg? ).

[Coren]

You guys are all focusing on the Model S. Tesla is already projecting to have their new model (some suspect they'll call it the model T) out by 2015. It's supposed to be in the $30k price range, and have a better range than the current Model S. It is not just a "guess" that batteries will improve drastically in the future. As they do, and as more of the fast charging stations are added, electric cars will be much more common.

[archibaldcrane]

Hay that's what everyone wants a 30,000 toy to make it cheaper and better for the world as you make money! Oh wait it would of taken you around 5+ years to save any money(anyone have the real numbers on how long it takes a EV car to pay off itself vs say a 17,000 car that gets 31Mpg? ).

Ok, let's use a Leaf, and in California. K?

Base model Nissan Leaf: $35,200
-7500 federal tax rebate
-2500 state tax rebate

$25,200

Driving 100k miles in a Leaf:
24 kwh per charge
.12/kwh national average (it's actually lower in most CA municipalities because of special car charging rates, but I'll use the 12 cents)
$2.88 per charge
EPA estimated 99 miles per charge

To go 100k miles:
1010 charges
$2831 in electricity
+25200 purchase price
=$28031 purchace price+fuel to go 100k miles in a Nissan Leaf

31 mpg generic car
Average gasoline in CA is $4.10 for regular gasoline
3225 gallons to go 100k miles
$13222 in gasoline
+17,000 purchase price
=30222 purchase price+fuel to go 100k miles in generic 31mpg 17k gas car

Break even is probably around 70-80k miles, between these two. That's of course ignoring the 20 oil changes or more that the 17k gas car will require.

[archibaldcrane]

I think you just have to compare apples to apples. Compare the Model S to luxury cars, compare the Leaf to mid-range cars (like an Altima or something), compare the i-MiEV to bargain basement cars.

[Dantrag]

Ok, let's use a Leaf, and in California. K?

Base model Nissan Leaf: $35,200
-7500 federal tax rebate
-2500 state tax rebate

$25,200

Driving 100k miles in a Leaf:
24 kwh per charge
.12/kwh national average (it's actually lower in most CA municipalities because of special car charging rates, but I'll use the 12 cents)
$2.88 per charge
EPA estimated 99 miles per charge

To go 100k miles:
1010 charges
$2831 in electricity
+25200 purchase price
=$28031 purchace price+fuel to go 100k miles in a Nissan Leaf

31 mpg generic car
Average gasoline in CA is $4.10 for regular gasoline
3225 gallons to go 100k miles
$13222 in gasoline
+17,000 purchase price
=30222 purchase price+fuel to go 100k miles in generic 31mpg 17k gas car

Break even is probably around 70-80k miles, between these two. That's of course ignoring the 20 oil changes or more that the 17k gas car will require.

How much for the rental cars when you take trips and their gas?

[archibaldcrane]

That's what your wife's car is for.

[Plow]

it's too bad there's not like some kind of a cross between the 2 (we could call it a hybrid!) that gets absolutely absurd highway mileage and covers all the complaints people can come up with until we get batteries effective enough not to need it

[Dantrag]

That's what your wife's car is for.

Then we have no fun vehicle