Is/n't Tesla literally/figuratively crashing?

[Pirian]

Interesting. I thought it was a federal thing, considering natural monopoly rights can only be granted by the feds. I'll have to remember to look into that, because that is quite strange.

[Ashmada]

I thought it had more to do with how ineffective those two are, requiring huge fields of windmills or solar panels to still not produce enough energy for most cities. Nuclear or dirty energy is pretty much our only options, afaik.

Silly you, bringing logic to a strawman fight.

Yeah, windmills are terribly inefficient. "They'll get more efficient in time!!!!111 look at mobile phonez!!! they'll evolve that well that fast!!!!" - we've had the things for centuries, they have indeed evolved, but not at the rate of mobile phones.
It's incredibly silly to assume everything will evolve as fast as communications technology and furthermore: so what if they evolve? You're going to replace them by more efficient turbines every few years? Can't imagine that being very cost-efficient... or Co2emission-efficient, for that matter.

Fission's our best bet for energy production atm and fusion our best prospect for the future... but we'd need to (global "we") invest much more in its research, rather than invest in 15th century tech; look forward, not backwards. It's when we attempt the formerly-thought-to-be-impossible that we, as a species, shine.



RKenshin: you're the one being intentionally obtuse: yes, electric vehicules require different habits... strictly more restricting habits. There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.

[archibaldcrane]

The upside is your fuel costs are about 25% of the alternative (in the US, 15% in Europe), and your maintenance costs are also significantly reduced.

[archibaldcrane]

And regarding solar panels, a person can easily provide 75% of their electricity via solar panels on their roof with a fraction of the space of said roof. Basically everyone who owns a home has plenty of room to provide the vast majority of said home's electricity themselves - and that's with 2012 technology, not an extrapolation of future tech.

[kuronosan]

And regarding solar panels, a person can easily provide 75% of their electricity via solar panels on their roof with a fraction of the space of said roof. Basically everyone who owns a home has plenty of room to provide the vast majority of said home's electricity themselves - and that's with 2012 technology, not an extrapolation of future tech.

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.

[archibaldcrane]

In California, with incentives, I could set up my house to provide 75% of my electricity costs for under $8k installed. However, it would take around 12 years for that to pay for itself since my electric bills are already so low.

Or you can lease them from companies for a flat monthly, however that system seems harder to make work financially.

[hey]

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.

I'm pretty sure the government will pay you to install them. They still require a significant upfront investment though.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

I know in my area in Oregon Pacific Power will purchase excess solar power. Toss in State/Federal reimbursements and you can recover the initial investments in under 5-8 years. But yeah there is that downside of needing that 10k upfront. And generally if you have that much just lying around like that good chances you don't care about your power bill.

[Ashmada]

I thought solar panels were ridiculously regulated to the point where no one can afford them anyway.

Not to mention practical issues. Case in point: some solar panels here aren't actually producing anything here.

Why? Because their high adoption rates (inefficient tech, but govt subsidies temporarily made it more attractive) means the street lines can't handle the load, so they're not producing anything.
Basically, your solar panel produces electricity, you get your "wow my meter is actually going backwards" moment ...and when your neighbours get panels as well, they stop until the lines are upgraded, which can take a very long time.


Btw, Archi conceeded defeat on:

What country are you in Ashmada? I'm itching to prove to you that there's an electric car in your country that is cheaper than any gas vehicle.

In PM. Even with our double-USprice gas, he couldn't find an electric car cheaper than a good ol' Polo Bluemotion.

[archibaldcrane]

I know in my area in Oregon Pacific Power will purchase excess solar power. Toss in State/Federal reimbursements and you can recover the initial investments in under 5-8 years. But yeah there is that downside of needing that 10k upfront. And generally if you have that much just lying around like that good chances you don't care about your power bill.

Yeah, being able to sell back to the utility is crucial. Especially when you're working 8-6 during peak sun with nothing really going on electrically at your house and the production from your panel is wasted.

[RKenshin]

RKenshin: you're the one being intentionally obtuse: yes, electric vehicules require different habits... strictly more restricting habits. There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said any of that. I haven't even so much as implied any of those ideas as being some sort of 'upside' or advantage; the only point I was making to you is that it's ridiculous to compare the convenience of gas vs EV without accounting for the completely different refueling habits.

Oh wait, I get it, you're trying to be ironic with your own strawman arguments. Right?

[archibaldcrane]

To help clear things up here: Ashmada is extremely butthurt about government incentives to build markets for future tech - nothing more, nothing less.

[archibaldcrane]

To which I say

YEEEEEAAAAAH BOOOYYYYIIIIEEEEE

[Ashmada]

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I said any of that. I haven't even so much as implied any of those ideas as being some sort of 'upside' or advantage; the only point I was making to you is that it's ridiculous to compare the convenience of gas vs EV without accounting for the completely different refueling habits.

Oh wait, I get it, you're trying to be ironic with your own strawman arguments. Right?

Wait, what? Where were you getting, then? Those very habits are a consequence of the loss of convenience and they're more restrictive. How's that a strawman?


Archi: please, I don't put words in your mouth, extend the same courtesy.

[archibaldcrane]

Archi: please, I don't put words in your mouth, extend the same courtesy.

Ok, I'll let you say them then.


Your butt is very clearly hurt about subsidies, it's ok, hurt butts happen to the best of us from time to time.

[Ashmada]

Ok, if it's really come to empty kindergarten accusations, I'll leave you to it; just expected a higher standard from you, tbh.

[archibaldcrane]

How is it empty? Just pointing out what you said, frothy-mouthed and furious. Are you pleased or upset that I was only able to find 1 4-door car under $75k with a 0-60 time equal or better than the Model S?

[Plow]

To which I say

YEEEEEAAAAAH BOOOYYYYIIIIEEEEE

holy fuck 4.3/12.8... I had no idea

that is just sick

[RKenshin]

Wait, what? Where were you getting, then? Those very habits are a consequence of the loss of convenience and they're more restrictive. How's that a strawman?

Because you're attacking my argument with points I never made? Hence, strawman.

I'm not sure how to put it more simply.

Your argument was along the lines of 'so long as an EV takes more than a few minutes to recharge, gas is always far superior.' But what you ignore is that when the right person for an EV car properly uses/refuels it, there should never be a time where they're waiting for the car to recharge. And if there is, it's incredibly rare and hardly a game-breaker.

And that will only become more true with time, as the driving range gets longer. Or would you really make the same argument for a car with a 500-1000 mile driving range?

I drive far more than the national average, at more than 20,000 miles/year. And I still can't name more than a single instance in the past 2 years where starting the day with even a 150m charge would have inconvenienced me.

While at it:

There's no upside to having to take hours to charge, no upside to being forced to charge every night, no upside to being required to plan your every trip where previously you could just spontaneously decide where you went and when.

I ignored this before because this wasn't what I was discussing, but these are also incredibly weak points.

You're not going to convince anyone that the 20 seconds of effort to plug a car into a wall outlet is a major disadvantage. In fact, I'd argue that going to the gas station even once a week is far more of an inconvenience than plugging your car in once a day.

Likewise, I have no idea what makes you think otherwise but road trips are not typically a daily/weekly/monthly or even yearly thing for many people. And regardless, I'm pretty sure that even a quarter of the $1-2000+ you save in gas a year can more than cover the cost of a rental in such a situation, and still leave you with a ton of extra cash on hand.

[archibaldcrane]

holy fuck 4.3/12.8... I had no idea

that is just sick

shit's unbelievable baby

and that's not to mention the retard-strength low center of gravity