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  1. #61
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    Working on a NA/EU client before the game launches? What kind of craziness is this?

    About damn time a Korean studio does this.

  2. #62

    Would still expect a delay between versions and regions, though.

  3. #63
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    Confirmed progress forward on this is good news.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alderaan View Post
    Working on a NA/EU client before the game launches? What kind of craziness is this?

    About damn time a Korean studio does this.
    Yeah this is pretty awesome news. I guess it goes in line with earlier comments that DAUM was creating an English™ client as well. I'm hoping for a 2015 release!

  5. #65
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    MMOCulture had an interview with Brian Oh, Director of Overseas Business, in regards to Daum being the publisher for NA/EU. The whole article can be found here, but I'll copy/paste the parts that talked about the NA/EU client.



    http://mmoculture.com/2014/07/black-...chinajoy-2014/



    CB: Obviously the gaming community is in shock at the announcement of Korean giant Daum Communications being the publisher of Black Desert for North America and Europe. Could you tell me more about the deal?

    Brian: I understand the shock of the community, but after much evaluation, we felt that the deal with Daum Communications is right, given how much support they have given us since the Korean deal was signed.

    CB: Will there be any possible delays, given that Daum Communications is not an established company in the western market?

    Brian: I am not sure what Daum will do, since I do not question their operations, but I do understand that Daum is looking to set up a new games business team and hiring veterans from the western region to operate the new games platform.

    Daum recently merged with Kakao, Korea’s biggest mobile gaming platform as well (cinderboy note: I guess Brian is hinting that Daum has all the products to make sure the Western platform launches smoothly)

    CB: Since Daum still needs time to set up a team, is there a concern that Black Desert will be pushed further backwards for a western launch?

    Brian: Working with Daum, I know that they make decisions and work fast, hence there is no worry at the moment.

    CB: How about translation? Is Black Desert being translated now internally?

    Brian: We have a partially translated version for Chinese, and we are translating the game into English internally. We might get other companies to do part of the translations, but overall we are controlling the core translation.

  6. #66
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    Swimming & Dyeing

  7. #67
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    God I hope we don't have to wait until 2016. So sick of waiting for these games then losing hope.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by enzan View Post
    God I hope we don't have to wait until 2016. So sick of waiting for these games then losing hope.
    Source

    Q: Our readers are very eager to play Black Desert, could you tell us when will Black Desert come to these enthusiastic players? Will there be anything new in Black Desert NA/EU for our players? What're the differences between NA/EU server and Korea server?

    Brian: About the progress of NA/EU server, we can tell you that the translation and localization of Black Desert NA/EU is underway. Korean sever has just finished CBT2 and will kick off CBT3 in September and Open Beta in November. Then we will begin the alpha and closed betas for NA/EU server after that, we plan to start Black Desert NA/EU CBT1 in early 2015. Our visit to ChinaJoy is exactly aimed for business with top Chinese publishers. So NA/EU server's launch schedule will definitely be earlier than the CN server.
    From interviews at ChinaJoy. NA/EU CBT1 in early 2015, pending how open beta for Korea goes.

  9. #69
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    Awesome thanks for the update Tidane! I really hope DAUM makes their game similar to Square Enix's method of updating their client (or really close to it with minimal differences); instead of having 12 different editions.

    North America, South America, Canada, Europe, China, Japan, Russia, Australia, Antarctica, People Who Watch Sailor Moon, Punky Brewster.

  10. #70
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    I think we'd be kidding ourselves to truthfully hope for this in 2015, however perhaps with everything being done by 1 studio, we'll luck out and get it 4th quarter of next year. /hope

  11. #71

    If they're actually ambitious about it, I don't see why we'd need a year after their eastern launch just for them to translate. Yeah, some of us are certainly spoiled by SE's simultaneous region launches, but what's sounding like a 3-6 month gap doesn't sound too unreasonable. Tightening that gap after a potential user base is established here should ideally be the next step. Or it could poopoo and just get abandoned. Who knows. x.x

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rulke View Post
    I think we'd be kidding ourselves to truthfully hope for this in 2015, however perhaps with everything being done by 1 studio, we'll luck out and get it 4th quarter of next year. /hope
    CBT1 for Korea was in ~October 2013 and Open Beta is planned for November 2014. Considering that the NA/EU release will be translations, variable tweaks, and server testing rather than developing the game, I can see the CBT->Open Beta time frame being condensed into a single year. The NA/EU release obviously comes second to the Korean, so we'll just have to wait and see.

    That is one thing SE seems to have stumbled into (until their Chinese version, anyway). Their game is what it is, instead of having different versions for different regions. Develop and balance once and release it everywhere.

  13. #73

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidane View Post
    CBT1 for Korea was in ~October 2013 and Open Beta is planned for November 2014. Considering that the NA/EU release will be translations, variable tweaks, and server testing rather than developing the game, I can see the CBT->Open Beta time frame being condensed into a single year. The NA/EU release obviously comes second to the Korean, so we'll just have to wait and see.

    That is one thing SE seems to have stumbled into (until their Chinese version, anyway). Their game is what it is, instead of having different versions for different regions. Develop and balance once and release it everywhere.
    I agree with the above, looking forward to some beta action sooner than I originally expected.

    Not to get too off topic, but as time passes and more MMOs are churned out, I'm constantly reminded about just how much SE got right with their game. I wish their stubborn asses fixed all the QoL/accessibility problems and broken endgame shit before they bled all their core players. Funny how a game released over a decade ago, came with so many aspects of an MMO that I have yet to see reproduced or done better.

    Off the top of my head:
    -Couch-gaming is actually possible (because there should be plenty of activities in an MMO where I shouldn't need to click a mouse+macros every 5sec lol)

    -Forced partying to gain levels as practical learning experience for when you do hit endgame and placing emphasis on social interaction(what a concept!)

    -Combining the exp grind with other milestones to make you feel like you've actually accomplished something(I might get some shit for this, but I can't stand this new culture of reaching endgame being more important than the journey. Face-rolling mobs and spamming NPC quests is a fucking cancer of the industry.)

    -Discouraging the creation of alts by having all classes on 1 character=reducing the typical watered-down field of endgame characters running around, griefing people that is rampant in all major MMO games.

    -An adequate built-in translator to encourage at least some form of interaction outside of your comfort zone(no idea if there's another MMO that has one as good as FFXI's)

    Alright, end of my lunch break rant, I'm done sipping on that nostalgia titty.

  14. #74

    Can agree with 1, 4, and 5.

    1 just usually feels impossible because newer game UIs can't really allow a full keyboard-only style. Those that thrive on PvP may be popping a blood vessel in insinuating that such should even be possible, but camera manipulation was never a problem for me in XI aside from maybe those niche locations where you were wall-blocked. Lookin' at you CN sac room.

    4 is nice if only because I don't have to add someone's alt list to my friend's list. Some games are smarter and base it on account, but not all. This actually ties in a bit to personal concerns on account security, too. Stuff like emails shouldn't be our login handle, nor should our fellow players be able to know our parent account. With the rise of web integration with things like online profiles and such, the vectors in which hackers can even learn our accounts/characters exist have multiplied. Games that, in turn, don't have any form of authenticator get scarier to play long term, too. Of the various account compromises I've had over the past decade, none have seemingly involved malware or me being dumb enough to visit some kind of phishing site. So, stuff like the recent Russian mega-hackings just has me giving the stink eye at various devs I've had issue with in the past.

    5 I guess kind of speaks for itself, but at the same time, a lot of games tend to be region focused with EU being the melting pot of English, French, Spanish, and German. And even then, servers tend to be further designated. Overall, I'd say XI also lacked the ability to link quests and items directly to the log. Maybe not the end of the world, but still a decent little QoL thing.

    As for 3, I disagree strongly because it takes the potential for progression out of the hands of the player. Only got an hour to kill? Forget EXPing if 30m of that is spent just trying to form a group. Even worse if you're a DPS class, as their saturation tends to be the MMO norm while tanks and support remain in shorter supply. I'm cool with various milestone quests, of course, like unlocking new abilities and areas, but if I only had one real gripe with quest grinds, it's how most games actually go about delivering their stories. Giant text dumps are just so disassociating when the crux of your gameplay is staring at combat graphics. For us XI or XIV vets, though, we usually get key story stuff delivered through cut-scenes. That's something I feel more studios need to replicate. You're still gonna have idiots in endgame no matter the method of progression, though. And to be honest, I'd rather have better geared idiots that may have a shot if key people pull their weight than poorly geared ones where there is simply no hope because skill can't exceed numbers.

    When it comes to 4, of course, quest grinds do have an issue with all-in-one characters. There either needs to be a healthy amount of repeatables or alternatives (not just dungeon grinding) to help level things up. I suspect this is more likely why alts are a thing for other games.

    In the end, for me the biggest gripe I've had with MMOs is that endgame usually gets focused into raiding. It's content the majority can't experience, usually due to the logistics of it all with a side of difficulty. Alternative activities are usually treated as second-rate in turn, where the reward ceiling then caps lower and sometimes for a far worse grind. I eagerly await a day where an MMO isn't focusing so much on that 10-15% that will never be happy because they happen to beat all the content in a given patch cycle. And as long as raiding is that focus, we'll never be free of the whole "the game begins at endgame" premise. No, to get away from that, world building needs to be more viable. Both in user generated content and intelligently designed dynamic events from devs themselves. From there, a little less caring that some scrub might have good gear via doing what they enjoy, too.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by notorious bum View Post
    Not to get too off topic, but as time passes and more MMOs are churned out, I'm constantly reminded about just how much SE got right with their game. I wish their stubborn asses fixed all the QoL/accessibility problems and broken endgame shit before they bled all their core players. Funny how a game released over a decade ago, came with so many aspects of an MMO that I have yet to see reproduced or done better.
    Different strokes and all that. FFXI had a certain uniqueness to it that has yet to materialize in other MMOs, but on the whole their designers and developers are far too incompetent to be working on anything. If they would've kept their client and servers maintained, there actually a workable game under all the ridiculousness that they do. Instead, they put money into FFXIV, making a terrible client and server (again) with a game that actually had flashes of brilliance. When that didn't work out, they took all of the interesting bits, threw them out with the shitty client and server, and made a generic WoW. Too bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious bum View Post
    -Forced partying to gain levels as practical learning experience for when you do hit endgame and placing emphasis on social interaction(what a concept!)
    I absolutely hate this. Forced partying to gain levels (in the way that FFXI did it) is terrible. You don't learn anything about the game that can't be taught to someone in twelve seconds. The forced social interaction in this environment just gives players another reason to bitch and moan about one another, be it because they can't get into a party or they think someone isn't efficient enough. The whole idea that grinding random mobs in groups of six to eight is an enjoyable way to spend time is only true under two cases: you enjoy the people you are grinding with and/or the grinding is actually fun. Any game can succeed on the first point, as long as they let you play with whomever you want. I've yet to truly feel a game has delivered on the second. Every one that I've played is a simple rotation of your skills mixed with (maybe) moving your toes to avoid an AoE. That's a travesty that should've been eliminated by now, but developers have made so little effort to actually introduce enjoyment into their combat system. I love that MMOs are finally branching out and really doubling down on the idea of a sandbox world, but when they still push combat as a major focus, it needs to be better than it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious bum View Post
    -Combining the exp grind with other milestones to make you feel like you've actually accomplished something(I might get some shit for this, but I can't stand this new culture of reaching endgame being more important than the journey. Face-rolling mobs and spamming NPC quests is a fucking cancer of the industry.)
    I agree, but don't agree with what I imagine your mindset is (based on the previous point). Experience points are great for DnD and RPGs where it is essentially impossible (by design) for your personal skill to factor into the gameplay in anyway. Your character has certain stats and you can use them in a certain way to attempt to get a certain result. In an RPG, what you can do is bound by what the developers wanted. In DnD, it is bound by what the DM wants you to do (you could use the rulebook as the developers analogue, but people are more flexible, which allows DnD to be less strict). Sandbox games try to move from the RPG implementation of DnD (stats without the freedom) towards DnD itself, where the player has much more freedom in what they do. In DnD, "trash" monsters exist, but only because the DM (developer) doesn't make them work. An interesting encounter can be made with weak monsters used in the correct way coupled with player agency, which is something that MMOs just don't have.

    The themepark approach is the digital analogue of old DnD campaigns. A lot of encounters with small numbers of monsters after hearing about some dungeon while you're sitting in a tavern. When we look at most modern MMOs, we see a huge number of small encounters interspersed with with more epic boss encounters (that may actually be enjoyable). You go from tavern to tavern, picking up quests and killing monsters, with some of these quests taking you to interesting places (but most don't). Developers try to provide a reason for you to move along the path and that ends up being to get better equipment so you can get better equipment so you can keep getting better equipment. All of it is very static and very boring. There may be flashes of interesting things, in the dialogue of a certain quest or character, with some good writing that brings a journey to an unexpected or enjoyable conclusion. This is second to a lot of players, even in games that play themselves up as story-driven, so most often it really isn't any good.

    When you're playing DnD, you can ignore that and go off and do whatever you want, as long as the DM is able to dynamically create (or have already created) content to throw at you. The idea of a sandbox. The players aren't bound to the path that the DM or campaign book has laid out for them. Most people may tend to follow along that path because it is what is expected, but even within that following, they have the ability to make the world their own. Their character isn't a static player in cutscenes with no ability to really impact the environment, outside of combat. Combat is simply an extension of the rest of the world. Games simply don't have this. The developer takes their times and tries to put all these different features in, but the player is still restricted enough that they still fall into the same pattern they've been using for every game and then wonder why it doesn't excite them anymore. The more these games open up and are able to provide the sandbox for their players to roll around in, the more players will start to branch out.

    So what does all this nonsense mean in response to your statement? Adding a huge grind before endgame is not the fix. The idea of making the player feel accomplished is a good start, but when you put that in terms of a game, you end up with something very similar to what we have now. People run dungeons on their low level character and as they become more powerful, they move on to the next dungeon until they're eventually at the last dungeon in this content patch, which they can run. A linear experience grind until the point where you're now grinding for equipment. The concept of an endgame is what is truly the cancer of the genre. The fact that everything before that is just viewed as a stepping stone to a point where you're playing the actual game. How do you solve that? Well, you do that by changing...

    Quote Originally Posted by notorious bum View Post
    -Discouraging the creation of alts by having all classes on 1 character=reducing the typical watered-down field of endgame characters running around, griefing people that is rampant in all major MMO games.
    Character progression. Although I don't agree with the idea that the amount of grief people cause in MMOs is because of alts, I don't like alts in general. I feel that it is used as a way for developers to take something and dry to drag more money out of it. While the specialized character concept draws from DnD, MMOs lack the flexibility that allows the concept to flourish. If you're playing as a Wizard and want to switch to a Fighter, you can bring in a new character ready to play with your friends. You don't have to go through the pointless, boring grind to get back to a point where you can have fun again. Any time you start throwing together these huge bottlenecks where the only thing a person has to do is sacrifice time to advance, you've lost. That isn't to say that things can't take a lot of time to accomplish, but whenever the task is do low level dungeons for tokens or random world events that you've already done a hundred times for a random drop instead of go do something fun, it just makes it that much more obvious that the whole point is to raid your wallet.

    "But random guy on the internet," you say, bewildered, "how are we supposed to advance our characters without grindfests?" It is an interesting question. Without any sort of advancement, the entire game has to be fun on its own. There are some people who that isn't enough for. For some people, the game getting harder to match their improved skill level is enough. I can't say that I have the magical solution to fix it. I know what I think would be enjoyable in my mind, but there are so many different ways to look at the problem. Do we take away linear progression for horizontal? Do we make it so you can level every skill on your character? Do we limit active specs, so the game isn't everyone max everything? A lot of the suggestions that people make don't eliminate grind, just mask it. I'd like to think that we could make a game that is fun to play, even if that fun is stuck within grind, but as I mentioned earlier, I don't think that outleveling content is a great way to do that. The development effort that goes into that content becomes a waste, essentially. It continues to happen every time you out-tier content in your game. Look at FFXIV, which seems to be desperately trying to keep all that low level content relevant by forcing high level players to grind on it. If you're going to say "this content is beneath you" by putting a low level on it and saying I'm item level 100, why are you patronizing me and forcing me to continuously go back to it?

    I think one of the reasons that traditional character progression doesn't appeal to me is because I feel like I have no impact on that progression. In Generic MMO, I kill some monsters as a class and gain XP, which causes me to gain levels, which gives me more stats. Then I can equipment better gear and repeat. I'm sure a lot of people smarter and more eloquent than me have brought up these same points, but I've yet to see a solution that truly gives a sense of freedom when you're playing an MMO, even the ones that label themselves as sandboxes. A lot of the design of MMOs that was rooted in necessity rather than good design has persisted to today (and some players seem to have some weird Stockholm Syndrome going on with them). With technological improvements, I think that games can start to subvert this and do things because it is what will be most fun for the player, rather than what will keep people slogging away at the grind.

    The takeaway from all of this is that I feel like people manage to be confused about what is actually fun for them (which doesn't make any sense at all) and the first thing a game needs to do is be fun. The core experience needs to be fun and that doesn't just mean fun in isolation. If you're going to make a combat centric game with hundreds of hours of it, it needs to be fun for hundreds of hours. Which, coming back to a point I probably never made, is why the sandbox style of gameplay has so much more potential than the themepark. Even if the developer isn't able to deliver on the promise of a hundred hours of fun grinding, letting the players do whatever they want in the world allows for so much more potential fun. I once spent multiple hours in a tavern listening to people play music. At that point, I wasn't playing a game, but I was more interested in the game than I had been in the past half year of killing random mobs in random dungeons.

    So, uh, a lot of off-topic words that have probably been placed in that order before, but oh well.

    TL;DR: I like MMOs or grinding or themeparks or boring things and any time I see a game that looks like it is a move in the right direction, I support it.

  16. #76

    Had I the reigns on some sort of combat design, I'd probably shift away from class-centric to skill-centric. Successfully using skills should, then, ideally lead to those "leveling" where you could then modify various parameters like its damage, cost, cooldown, range, AoE radius, or whatever appropriate. Some skills may be locked to specific weapons, others more general. And if certain skills are leveled enough, some kind of hybrid version might be unlocked. Like, if you leveled Sword Stab and Fireball to 5, you'd then learn Flaming Sword Stab and level its parameters. I have no delusions that such would be a bitch to make depending on how broad one is willing to go, and on the player end, it could also wind up feeling rather grindy if the rate of leveling isn't done properly. However, I feel the level customization would be far greater than I think any MMO has offered to date. Things like the various trinity archetypes could then spring from that, where the difference between a "paladin" and a "dark knight" would only really be that one leveled light magic, emphasizing cures and holy damage, while the other did dark, thriving on drains and debilitating effects. Some did both? Fuck, let's make TG Cid a class.

    I've got ideas on how I would handle equipment under this concept, too, but let's just say I'm not a fan of the tiering system that's become more prominent in games these days. I'd also like crafting to be more meaningful, which would probably mean mobs never actually drop equipment, but instead materials. But this all tangential wishful thinking. x.x

  17. #77

    I probably shouldn't have opened that can of FFXI worms lol I'm not really fully-committed to my own comments, mostly nostalgia taking over that post.

    For example, I really don't want forced partying to be the standard, but I sure as hell will never co-sign this generation of the path to endgame being easier solo. It should be possible to solo, but in the way that BST had a more dangerous, slightly longer journey for soloing.

    The amount of exp grind should be sizeable, but not pre-TOAU insanity. Breaking up the monotony of exping on a handful of mobs is also important for exping to feel natural. FFXI actually did this better than other MMOs, it's just the grind was so damn long(plus the monetary grind), that taking a break to go get shit like subjob, scrolls, airship access, AF, genkais, quest fame, and completing missions were still not enough.

    Exp partying, like every other activity that needed to be done with the help of other people, was highly-dependent on the quality of people you were with, but, from my experience, even in some shitty PUG parties, the social aspect was still there. In fact, I would say that the most efficient and successful PUG parties had just as high of a likelihood of being a complete bore to be in, which negates the whole reason of choosing to play an MMO(many obviously play them for e-stroking purposes, too.)

  18. #78

    Eh, I wouldn't be so quick to claim partying isn't a thing for leveling in other games. Instant Adventures in Rift spring to mind, as basically random objectives you and a group can tackle that further scale based on group size. It wasn't a perfect system, but still alternative to chasing quest hubs. In XIV, people also could grind normal mobs 7-8 levels higher in a full party. Only real snag was actually finding good camps to do it. Better than FATEs and dungeons? Probably not, but it was also better than just straight solo grinding due to chains and a general strength in numbers. Overall, I'm a stickler for alternatives, presuming it doesn't water down one just to make another happen. Such is why I harp on some folks in the XI section who want hard as balls alliance content even though the game just plain can't support fleshing out large groups regularly due to lacking matchmaking tools and the ever-present job discrimination.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Eh, I wouldn't be so quick to claim partying isn't a thing for leveling in other games. Instant Adventures in Rift spring to mind, as basically random objectives you and a group can tackle that further scale based on group size. It wasn't a perfect system, but still alternative to chasing quest hubs. In XIV, people also could grind normal mobs 7-8 levels higher in a full party. Only real snag was actually finding good camps to do it. Better than FATEs and dungeons? Probably not, but it was also better than just straight solo grinding due to chains and a general strength in numbers. Overall, I'm a stickler for alternatives, presuming it doesn't water down one just to make another happen. Such is why I harp on some folks in the XI section who want hard as balls alliance content even though the game just plain can't support fleshing out large groups regularly due to lacking matchmaking tools and the ever-present job discrimination.
    Could just say "Draylo."

    And I guess i'm tempering any expectations with the fact it's yet another Korean MMORPG. So I guess ded game, F2P, and P2W in less than a year or something.

  20. #80

    More than just him, but that'd be the stubborn standout.

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