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  1. #1
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    TH+ procs

    In light of the recent dev discussion, I've decided to post my preliminary data. No Weapon Skills will be used to prevent ninja TH+ procs, and dual wield will not be used either. I lacked the forethought at 1am to redo my spellcast sets removing as much DA/TA gear as possible, but that would pretty much be removing everything at that point, so the rest of my gear is my standard TP set (unless specified). Targets are Duriumshells in Vunkerl, because crabs are everyones best friend.

    Test 1
    Nynja
    STR Thokcha (was originally gonna do TK, but after like 4 minutes I had the crab at 60%, was just way too slow), AA+2 + RK+2 equipped full time.

    176 duriumshells killed
    15720/877 hit/miss ratio

    parser lists
    Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
    Nynja 16597 10397 1 6200

    Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
    Nynja 3890 991 104 4 0

    Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
    Nynja 3890 37.81 % 79.70 % 991 9.63 % 20.30 %

    Since TH+ cant proc on DA/TA rounds, this might be relevant

    148 mobs reached TH7 (havent checked levels)
    61 mobs reached TH8 (havent checked levels)
    14 mobs reached TH9 (lv93, 92, 93, 93, 92, 92, 93, 93, 92, 92, 92, 92, 93, 93)
    2 mobs reached TH10 (lv92, 93)

    If mob level has an impact, the difference between lv92 and 93 is too negligible. I do however suspect that damage dealt has an impact, but I cant go through my logs reliably and check as there were other people there, I dont know which scissor guards were my crabs or other peoples crabs.

    I have the log and kparser data if anyone wants to peek in there and get some more details.

    I adjusted some numbers here, reparsed the log in kparser, something seemed wrong about my hit count.

    ----

    Test 2:
    Nynja
    STR Thokcha, using my /ranged macro to put TH6 on the mob, then will fight with my standard set. If fighting with less TH gear on does lead to less TH+ procs, it should show.

    177 Duriumshells killed
    15631/817 hit/miss ratio

    Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
    Nynja 16448 8857 1 7591

    Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
    Nynja 3263 1137 472 102 43

    Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
    Nynja 3263 37.29 % 74.16 % 1137 12.99 % 25.84 %

    28 mobs reached TH7
    1 mob reached TH8

    That is a huge drop off in TH proc rate. Going from 6 to 7 with TH3 equipped has a higher chance than going from 9 to 10 with TH6 equipped though it seems.

    ----

    Test 3:
    Nynja
    STR Thokcha, going with TH3 all the way through the fight.

    205 Duriumshells killed
    17601/923 hit/miss ratio

    Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
    Nynja 18524 9805 1 8719

    Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
    Nynja 3479 1429 497 142 61

    Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
    Nynja 3479 35.86 % 70.88 % 1429 14.73 % 29.12 %

    157 mobs went to TH4
    70 went to TH5
    11 went to TH6
    0 went to TH7

    ----

    Test 4:
    Kehhiko
    Aluh Jambiya (i cant spend 7 mil in geodes for a mules dagger)
    Test will be identical to 1, just to see if I can replicate the results on a different character. Theres not much inferiority since the main difference between Nynja and Kehhiko is that one has a mandau and one doesnt, and I removed the Mandau from the equation. I'll give her a more "average" gear set. This test wont really prove anything, but it might show some different results, and theres no harm in that.

  2. #2
    Chram
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    Are the TH8/9/10 levels inclusive or exclusive of the lower tiers? That is, if you got TH7, then TH8 on a single mob, is the TH7 proc included in your TH7 count?

    Can you provide a simple count of the total number of single-attack rounds? Formatting is messy, but I think your numbers imply it should be 1659 single-attack rounds?
    Edit: Meh, brain fart. Can't proc on DA/TA hits, not that it can't proc on DA/TA rounds. Should still be 1659 rounds.

    Getting the average number of rounds needed to get a TH7 proc would be ideal, but it'll be difficult to extract that info. Would have to write up some custom code for KParser. Playing around a bit to see if I can get something working.

  3. #3
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    TH+ procs

    The th counts are additive, i didnt subtract procs, so the 2 10s are 7 8 9 10.

    Also its not exactly a x-hit to TH+ either though

  4. #4
    Chram
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    It's not an x-hit, but it gives us a probability range.

    Put in some preliminary reporting on the Extra Attacks page in KParser (new release, version 1.6.4). If you show Details, it should mark which round generated a TH proc for each mob. For now you'll have to do manual counting to get a measure of proc frequency. EG: For TH7, count the number of rounds per mob up to a TH7 proc, including all rounds for mobs with no TH proc.

  5. #5
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    TH+ procs

    Ill download an updated copy and run it for the remaining tests.

    Initial data on test two is looking really bad. I know its not saying much, but first 5 crabs havent yielded a TH+ proc. Going to TH7 with TH3 in gear is like going to TH10 with TH6 in gear...which happened 2/178 mobs. I'm gonna let it play out either way for the sake of gathering data.

    But its looking like SE doesnt want to force rangers into a piece of gear, but is willing to force thieves into AA+2/RP+2, and offhanding a fucking shitty weapon to maximize TH+ potential.


    Posted Test 2 data
    148 of 176 mobs were pushed to TH7 from TH6 with TH6 in gear full time
    28 of 177 mobs were pushed to TH7 from TH6 with only base TH3 full time

    Next up will be TH proc rate from TH3 onward (no initial bump to TH6)

  6. #6

    Cool stuff. I guess two other tests you could do is to start off with TH6 and then fight using either Poulaines or Armlets to keep your character at TH4/5. From the looks of it so far it seems that that dTH makes a huge difference, but it looks like comparable situations get you about the same upgrade rate.

    IE: In your first test, you upgraded to TH+4 2/16 times, whereas in your second test, you upgraded to TH+4 28/177 times. Granted the former is a small simple.

  7. #7
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    Also, granted the former would have been alive for much less time after reaching TH9.

  8. #8
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    TH+ procs

    First test had a lot less HP to work with to get to TH+4 since it was building to 10 from 6, whereas the second test only needed to get +1 for an entire hp pool. I still have to do the "build from 3" test.

  9. #9
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    Code:
    [16:41:05]The Merrow Shadowdancer uses Gusting Gouge, but misses Kehhiko.
    [16:41:08]Kehhiko hits the Merrow Shadowdancer for 65 points of damage.
    [16:41:08]Kehhiko hits the Merrow Shadowdancer for 51 points of damage.
    [16:41:09]The Merrow Shadowdancer hits Kehhiko for 32 points of damage.
    [16:41:09]Additional effect: Kehhiko takes 5 additional points of damage.
    [16:41:12]Kehhiko uses Trick Attack.
    [16:41:12]The Merrow Shadowdancer misses Kehhiko.
    [16:41:13]Kehhiko scores a critical hit!
    [16:41:13]The Merrow Shadowdancer takes 431 points of damage.
    [16:41:13]...A command error occurred.
    [16:41:14](4*) You were unable to change your equipped items.
    [16:41:14]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Merrow Shadowdancer increases to 8.
    [16:41:15]Kehhiko defeats the Merrow Shadowdancer.
    [16:41:15]You offer to trade with Vermy.
    [16:41:32]Vermy starts casting Sneak on Vermy.
    [16:41:43]Vermy starts casting Invisible on Vermy.
    [16:41:44]Kehhiko uses Spectral Jig.
    I left in excessive extra code to show that there were no post-kill overflow attacks, and that the TH+ actually proced on a killshot. I was very surprised, since add effects usually wont kick in on killshots.



    Test 3 is up, and there are some numerical discrepancies, in favor of test 1. Ideally, the TH+ rate should have been the same as Test 1, going from TH3 with TH3 in gear as going from TH6 with TH6 in gear. Possible problems include: sample sizes, day/moon phaze (here we go again), the difference in TH level (going from 3 to 4 would be a greater increase than going from 6 to 7), but most likely being stats on the gear (Haste set = STR+30 DEX+30 VIT+8 AGI+24 MND+5 Triple+3 , TH set = STR+27 DEX+12 AGI+28 MND+2), the former set leading to faster kills with more multi attacks (meaning less TH+ proc chances). Test 1 parsed 10397 attack rounds in 176 mobs (59 attack rounds per mob), yet Test 3 parsed 9805 attack rounds in 205 mobs (48 attack rounds per mob). That average of 11 less TH+ proc chances per mob could have gone a long way.

    I think the more math inclined can figure out how to factor in the proc chances with the TH+ results of Tests 1/3, but I think they're pretty similar.

    Test 2 is pretty definitive that the TH+ proc rate is helped by wearing TH+ gear once you get further up (presuming you dont pre-stack it).

  10. #10
    Chram
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    NynJa, I put up a revised KParser (1.6.4a) that adds a touch more detail on summing up the number of TH procs on the Extra Attacks page.

    TH0 is the number of rounds on a mob that didn't get any TH proc at all. Set at 0 since I can't know what your baseline TH is for any given test. You can add this number to the total rounds for the first TH proc.
    TH8 (for example) will include the number of rounds you hit the mob after a TH7 proc, even if it never proc'd TH8 on that mob.

    Hopefully this will help with the analysis. Reparsing isn't necessary; it's just pulling more details from the existing parse.

  11. #11
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    Test 1-TH6 base, TH6 in gear:

    TH Procs

    TH Level -- Total Rounds
    0 -- 1561

    TH Level -- Average Rounds (Number of Procs)
    7 -- 21.59 (3196 / 148 )
    8 -- 66.33 (4046 / 61)
    9 -- 102.29 (1432 / 14)
    10 -- 75.50 (151 / 2)
    11 -- 0.00 (11 / 0)


    Test 2-TH6 base, TH3 in gear:

    TH Procs

    TH Level -- Total Rounds
    0 -- 7513

    TH Level -- Average Rounds (Number of Procs)
    7 -- 25.00 (700 / 28 )
    8 -- 606.00 (606 / 1)
    9 -- 0.00 (38 / 0)


    Test 3-TH3 base, TH3 in gear:
    TH Procs

    TH Level -- Total Rounds
    0 -- 1949

    TH Level -- Average Rounds (Number of Procs)
    4 -- 17.40 (2732 / 157)
    5 -- 54.16 (3791 / 70)
    6 -- 105.82 (1164 / 11)
    7 -- 0.00 (169 / 0)

  12. #12
    Chram
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    Ok, quick rewrite of the data.

    Test 1 (Base: TH6, Gear: TH6)

    TH7
    1561 + 3196 rounds = 4757 rounds
    148 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 32.1 [CI: 27.4 - 37.7]

    TH8
    4046 rounds
    61 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 66.3 [CI: 51.8 - 85.4] (~2x TH7)

    TH9
    1432 rounds
    14 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 102.3 [CI: 60.6 - 175] (~3x TH7)

    TH10
    151 rounds
    2 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 75.5 (margin of error too high to compare)


    Test 2 (Base: TH6, Gear: TH3)

    TH7
    7513 + 700 rounds = 8213 rounds
    28 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 293.1 [CI: 204 - 435]


    Test 3 (Base: TH3, Gear: TH3)

    TH4
    1949 + 2732 rounds = 4681 rounds
    157 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 29.8 [CI: 25.6 - 34.8]

    TH5
    3791 rounds
    70 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 54.2 [CI: 42.9 - 68.4] (~2x TH4)

    TH6
    1164 rounds
    11 procs
    Rounds/Proc: 105.8 [CI: 58.4 - 196] (~3x TH4)


    Summary

    The margins of error get fairly large at the higher TH levels, but it looks like TH +1/+2/+3 have about the same rates when starting from TH3 as when starting from TH6. It also appears that going to TH+4 has a notable differential in proc rate compared to the lower tiers.

    Overall rates look roughly like:

    +1: 1 proc every ~33 rounds
    +2: 1 proc every ~66 rounds
    +3: 1 proc every ~100 rounds
    +4: 1 proc every ~300 rounds


    Aside: We could probably also use this to get a rough idea of the increase from using SA/TA by testing using pre-charged SA/TA as the first hit and counting up the number of procs vs mobs. Given that TH can proc even on a killing shot, can do that test on starter mobs. Maybe have a rdm gather up a bunch, and work through them alternating SA and TA.

  13. #13
    Chram
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    Implications

    In general (and ignoring SA/TA), you should be able to get to TH+3 in 200 rounds, significantly less than the 300 rounds it would take to go from +3 to +4. That means if you melee in TH6 gear (and assuming the mob lives long enough), you can reach TH9 on the mob well before you could have reached TH7 if you only tagged it with TH6, then meleed in TH3.

    So if you have 200+ rounds of melee time, meleeing in full TH gear should give you +2 to +3 more TH than simply tagging it.

    If you have 100 rounds of melee time, you have about a 28% chance of getting TH+1 on a tagged mob, or a 60% chance of getting TH+2 on a fulltime-TH mob (95% chance of getting TH+1). For any moderate to significant number of attack rounds, it looks like a solid chance of getting TH+1 over a tagged mob fight (meaning either TH+0 on tagged and TH+1 on fulltime, or TH+1 on tagged and TH+2 on fulltime), and a pretty good chance of reaching TH+2 over the tagged variant.

    From a couple Dynamis parses, it looks like I get about 7 rounds on non-piercing-weak EP mobs when in a duo, and about 16 rounds when solo. If I fulltimed TH gear, I would expect to get TH+1 20% of the time when in a duo, 40% of the time when solo. If I only tag the mob, I would expect to get TH+1 2% of the time when in a duo, 5% of the time when solo.

    So if I use the solo numbers, fulltiming TH gear should get me TH+1 on an additional 35% of the mobs. Fulltiming TH gear looks, from a rough estimate, like a reduction in damage output of 8%-9%. In Dynamis that isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you had a tendancy to slow down your damage while trying to proc; this would give you more leeway to be more agressive on the damage side. In larger events, a 10% reduction in damage from the thf would be a miniscule reduction in overall damage.

    Of course figuring out the value of that increase depends on what, exactly, TH+1 gives you, and unfortunately we don't have any solid numbers for that.

  14. #14
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    Arcon did some tests with SA/TA against Wild Rabbits a while ago. His results were:
    Hornetneedle - 79/200 upgraded
    Relic Dagger - 69/200 upgraded

    So there doesn't seem to be a round delay dependence at least for SA. The 37% average proc rate he recorded looks like approximately 10x the base we would have expected.

    This might imply that for large events THFs should really be single wielding TK with max Haste.

  15. #15
    Chram
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    Ok, useful.

    It also gives us a better idea on the value of 5/5 Feint, as well. With +100% proc rate, the upgrade rates would be something like:

    +1: 1 in 16
    +2: 1 in 33
    +3: 1 in 50
    +4: 1 in 150

    And assuming the SA/TA multipliers are constant, the combined effect would be:

    +1: 1 in 1.6
    +2: 1 in 3.3
    +3: 1 in 5
    +4: 1 in 15

    Feint + SA + TA would give about a 20% chance of reaching TH+2 within the first ~15-20 seconds.

  16. #16
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    Do we know if the enhanced TH rate from SA/TA stacks?

  17. #17
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    TH+ procs

    2 posts up

  18. #18
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    I think he means the 2x proc rate from Feint compared to the apparent 10x proc rate from SA/TA. No, we don't know for sure that it stacks. We also don't know if it applies to the hit that lands Feint.

    What you're looking at in this thread is the best information that exists on the TH upgrade system, at least NA-side. For TH potency, this thread may be the best option:
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Hunter-Testing

  19. #19
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    I was looking at SATA as opposed to just SA or just TA. Feint and SATA is another question though.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    We also don't know if it applies to the hit that lands Feint.
    When that discussion came up, I started playing with that idea, and I've started to believe it actually is the Feint hit instead of while the eva down debuff is on. Obviously just eyeballed atm, since such a test would take a LONG time and couldnt be done by monkeys. If only you could reset JA's in the field on test server

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