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Thread: FFXIV story/lore thread     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #1901
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    pretty much.. altho the real question i have is that if primals are essentially prayed into existence and all their powers are based on what the people praying for them think they had, wouldnt that by extension also mean primals are able to temper only because those who prayed for them thought that they could?

    as in, if you didn't think what you were praying for was a primal, but maybe just the return of a person (e.g. Good King or say Enkidu) then they shouldnt be able to temper because thats not a part of what you thought them to be right? Or is it just something that all conjured aether beings are capable of?

    Then again, Bahamut flies in the face of this, because Tiamat and the Meracydia dragons clearly knew Bahamut but when they summoned him, somehow his personality was all fucked up and not like the actual guy.

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    They say the recipe for a Primal is sugar(aether) and spice(prayers) and something not nice(Ascians). However it seems like theres more at play and were missing a mystery ingredient. If primals are simply projections of it's faithful then kinda brings up why are they exactly they way they are? Bahamut didn't come out as intended, Garuda is a bitch to her own people hard to think they wished for that. I might be wrong about this but primals also seem to have knowledge beyond those that summon them in the way they talk. Several Primals mention the blessing of light and talk about Hydealyn as though they know her, all knowledge I don't think is common among most npcs let along beastmen.

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    I dunno, is it that hard to imagine something crazy popping out?

    I'd like to think that if the faithful of our world could summon a god, he'd probably act like a crazy and whimsical homeless person.

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    Go more meta. Maybe Primal Bahamut was actually the spirit of the deceased Bahamut that was dragged back into life, and the result just broke and corrupted him. That sets the stage for everyone believing that summoning something brings back a fucked up copy of it, and that's the legacy left behind. It worked the first time, but it was basically Event Horizon, and now it's broken because everyone thinks it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nama View Post
    I might be wrong about this but primals also seem to have knowledge beyond those that summon them in the way they talk. Several Primals mention the blessing of light and talk about Hydealyn as though they know her, all knowledge I don't think is common among most npcs let along beastmen.
    Like Elidibus tells us: "Knowledge dictates expectation, and expectation colors perception."

    It's likely the Primals know far more than the Beastmen by default because isn't that what you imagine your god to be? Near omniscience is a pretty standard facet of a god, I think. Why pray for a dumb god when you can pray for a knowing God?

    Perhaps it just has to deal with how the Primals are summoned--every Primal to date has been summoned via Ascian intervention in some way (Enkidu's semicanonicity aside, I don't want to argue this again); the Primals in question's knowledge could be directly related to the Paragon knowledge. (In fact, I know in 1.0 Ifrit explicitly mentions the Paragons warned him about the Godless blessed [Echo users/Hydaelyn's servants]).

    I'd say your mystery ingredient is still the third one--the Ascian involvement. There's a very key part of the process we're missing (probably by design). We're never there when the Paragons meet the Beast Tribes and explain the rites of summoning; we lack the knowledge of summoning ourselves, etc.

    Accepting Bahamut-Primal was Bahamut-Mortal's soul reclaimed from the aether is another tough pill to swallow. Shiva-Mortal's soul allegedly still resides within Hraesvelgr, so how did Shiva-Primal come to be?

    Also the whole "dragged back to life bit" was used in both the Alchemy questline and Crystal Tower already--we know it's canonically possible to bring a soul back from the aetherial realm (which is really fucking annoying to think about the whole lifestream concept) sans summoning (we also know it's possible to play hot potato with your soul too). That said, this is the carrot the Ascians used to goad Tiamat. The Ascians didn't promise her the ability to make her brotherhusband a god, nor (as far as we know) mention the whole god part at all. Every language more or less agrees with this point. Tiamat didn't summon Bahamut to be a primal-- she simply performed the rite in order to make him live again. The Ascians left out some key details, ofc. I can't remember any mentioning of Primals before the Allagan invasion of Meracydia, but it's a little unusual, to say the least, to think this. Bahamut and Sephirot's summonings should have been happened within the same lifetime of the Meracydians--one was an attempt at reviving a mortal (ish) being while the other was asking for a God. (Both cases desiring some sort of divine intervention, I guess lol)

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    Leviathan, Titan, Ramuh, Ifrit, Garuda, Ravana, Bismarck, Alexander, etc
    Bismarck is hinted at with the Vanu Vanu being saved from the Allagans by a huge whale that flew. In reality, it probably wasn't a huge flying whale, but was probably an airship or some kind of vessel of some sort that was NAMED "Bismarck". Hell, maybe it was Void Ark. They are of low intelligence so they probably couldn't comprehend the technology and figured the thing that flew them up to the Sea of Clouds was a giant god whale. Garuda is worshipped by the Ixal because she has wings and promises to restore the Ixal's flight. Considering the Iksalon inside Fractal Continuum have wings and look identical to Ixal, Garuda could have been one amongst them who helped them become liberated from the Allags. Titan/Leviathan/Ifrit are unclear, but probably some myth is associated with them. Ravana looks VERY close to the first boss of Fractal, perhaps the Gnath found a buried copy of one of those multi-armed sword machines and revered it as a god of war to worship.

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    Remind me again why Bahamut was so damn strong compared to other primals? I know he was super strong during the Calamity because he had hundreds of years to be pissed/absorb Aether, but how was he so strong during his initial summoning that required him to be detained instead of just slain? If what makes Primals strong is their initial Aether source and conviction of those summoning, were the Merycidians just better 'summoners' than modern Beast Tribes in that their prayers were stronger? Also, I wonder what kinds of crystals they gave to feed Bahamut? Are there any non-aspected crystals that exist, since he is a non-elemental primal?

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    Required him to be detained? Unless I'm mistaken, the whole reason he was summoned was so he could act as a giant battery for all the power than the allagans needed to run the Crystal Tower (and maybe other stuff). It's not that they couldn't defeat him; they never wanted to. They deliberately had him summoned, shackled him, and used him as an energy source (somehow). Right? ...right?

  9. #1909
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    Yes. The Ascians gave the Allagans the power to Bind Bahamut, and then tricked Tiamat into summoning him.

    Also worth keeping in mind is the Extreme primal quest line. It has you wandering the realm finding increasingly morbid ritual totems; if I remember correctly, Urianger mentions that some of the bones involved are fresh, and come from beastmen/enlightened races. It seems likely, then, that there are ritual "human" sacrifices going on.

  10. #1910
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    But why would Bahamut have been any stronger than any other primal (upon his initial summon). All primals are more or less the same strength, just differ in style/elemental affinity/ideals. The difference in strength between the main ones from 2.X were for gameplay reasons, or if there WERE differences, it was because one had more prayers/crystals. Why would Bahamut as a primal been any stronger than Ifrit or Garuda if it was summoned similarly (with prayers/hopes+offering of crystals)?

  11. #1911
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    Was Bahamut the first to be summoned? That could be something to do with it since isn't it damaging every time one is summoned? The other thing could be because of how technologically advanced the Allagans were, they could possibly summon something stronger?

  12. #1912
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    they mention a great wyrm's eyes are a huge source of aether and you can assume Tiamat was part of the ritual

  13. #1913
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    Edit: ^ beat me to it

    Was he summoned solely by Tiamat, or was it Tiamat + Merycidians? Or did the Merycidians just help sustain Bahamut after he was summoned and enslaved? Perhaps Bahamut was only so powerful because he was summoned by a High Wyrm with both eyes intact, which is an immense wellspring of Aether, and perhaps that obviated the need for additional Crystals to be offered. Maybe I'm answering my own question as to why Bahamut was so much stronger than any new Primal because the 'Summoner' was a Wyrm and not some lowly Fish Man or Lizard Dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    how was he so strong during his initial summoning that required him to be detained instead of just slain?
    Also this isn't really the right question to ask. When the Allagans invaded Meracydia and fought the first primals it must've become apparent that the Meracydian tribes were able to simply keep on resummoning. At some point they figured out that trapping the primals was the only way to stop them for good and came up with the technology to do so.

    Every instance of allagan-primal conflict that we know of has ended with imprisonment of the primal's physical manifestation (Bahamut, Sephirot, Zurvan, Sophia, Odin). Even if we take a look at the Ultima weapon, it doesn't kill primals - it absorbs them.

    Latly, there was a mention of trapped eikons in Eorzea at some point near the end of the MSQ (whether they were simply referring to the Triad or not is unclear) but basically what I'm saying is Bahamut's case of "being imprisoned instead of killed" isn't anything special.

  15. #1915
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    I forgot to draw the line between the sacrificial totems and the huge, huge number of Meracydian dead that lead up to Bahamut's summoning. Additionally, it seems plausible to me that Tiamat and her lieutenants would have willingly sacrificed many of their children (who seem to require aging to become anything more than feral animals? Am I remembering that right?) to bring back Bahamut, especially if said children were going to die anyway in the war.

    Greater sacrifice, more powerful incarnation of the primal. Also probably helps that since Primals are simply "echos" or "shadows" of their originals, if they have one, Bahamut's original was one of the seven elder dragons and therefore would cast a huge fucking shadow, or whatever.

  16. #1916
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    Dragons are sentient from birth, pretty much (at least comparative to mankind). There are plenty example of dragonets in Trine who speak to us as if children. Only the scalekin enthralled to dragons are "feral" and even then some show signs of intelligence above that of an animal. You're also really selling the dragons short--they make a huge deal about how precious life is to dragons and they'll return for their dead on the battlefield etc.

  17. #1917
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    Also this isn't really the right question to ask. When the Allagans invaded Meracydia and fought the first primals.
    Do we know for sure that allagans ran into the first primals? Was Midgarsormor's guarding Mor Dhona's primal cache pre or post Allagans? Other then that only thing I can think of off top my head is that end of 2.0 the heart of sabik? the core of Ultima weapon and potentially the basis of how they sealed primals predated Allagans. As far as I know Allag is the start of recorded history in Eorzea and basically nothing is known about previous ages past there was calamities.

    Edit: matoya"s crystal and Louisouix staff are really old too right

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    We don't know wtf Midgardsormr was guarding in Mor Dhona, but our best guess is he's been guarding it since before recorded history.

    The Heart of Sabik is older than Allag for sure, but we don't know how much older--I wouldn't call it the "basis for sealing primals" though since our only knowledge is that the Ascians started whispering in the Allag's ear about trapping Primals in the twilight of the Third Astral Era. We know the Allag tried to conquer Meracydia at least twice (succeeding the second/final time) BUT they have been confirmed by out-of-game interviews with devs to have started researching Primals before the Crystal Tower was even raised.

    Matoya's Crystal is the oldest object we know of, yeah, coming from the First Astral Era iirc

  19. #1919
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    Bahamut seems to be that powerful because the Allagan designed it that way. He was likely very powerful to begin with, being a Great Wyrm before and summoned by a Great Wyrm as a Primal. By the time this happens Allag had already learned how to imprison and harness the power of the Triad, so for Bahamut they had something larger in scale in mind. After Bahamut's capture, the Allag went on a rampage through Meracydia capturing thousands upon thousands of dragons for experimentation including Tiamat herself. Thousands of those dragons were then placed in stasis in Dalamud, which then provided Bahamut a constant steam of pure, pissed off prayer to charge him up continuously. That energy was then used to fuel the Crystal tower. All in all though, the Crystal Tower didn't last too long, and was buried when it overloaded and caused that age's calamity. So even after the Allagan were gone, Bahamut was still up in Dalamud constantly being supercharged by the sealed dragons and producing energy, but now that energy wasn't being used and probably just kept building up in Bahamut. When he breaks out in our Age he has over five thousand years of excess energy to use to pretty much shatter the continent, the excess of which is later used by Louisoix to create Pheonix and stop Bahamut.

    As to whether these were the "First" Primals, I don't quite think that is the case. We don't really know much of anything that happened before the 3rd Era, not even the previous two calamities, so most of this is conjecture. There are a handful of really old beings and objects, those that supposedly existed before the 3rd Era, a good number which are implied to have existed since the 1st Era. There's Hydaelyn and Zodiark seemingly at the core of everything. Midgardsormr apparently came here through the void in what it think was implied to be the 1st Era and the Great Wyrms hatched soon after. Matoya's Crystal is supposedly from the 1st Era. The Heart of Sabik and Tupsumati we do not have a date on, but are apparently similarly ancient. The eikons we know of thus far, the Triad and Odin, don't seem to have an exact date yet, but it seems that they were ancient even during the 3rd Era, so they are likely at least 2nd Era if not 1st. And behind the scenes of all this of course are the Ascians. They teach the Meracydian Dragons (and maybe all the Triad Worshipers as well) how to summon, something they seem to have no concept of. So either the Ascians came up with the process at that point, or it was a process developed long before that was considered lost by the 3rd Era. Given that they are tied to Zodiark, and it is apparently the conflict between Zodiac and Hydaelyn that fuels the changes between the Astral and Umbral Eras, it seems that the Adicans have been around since (and have been pulling the strings behind all the Calamities since) the 1st Era. Hell, maybe even further back if all the Era's happened after some FFV style world split. The implication behind all of this is that summoning and Primals could be as old as the concept of the Era's themselves.

    Hopefully with all the stuff happening with the Triad, the Dark Warriors, and crystal-whatever Minfilia coming back we will start to get some answers.

  20. #1920
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    idk, nidhogg is pretty blase about throwing away the lives of his children.

    also i was under the impression that the dragonet form was the youngest at which they are sentient, but that that they were still ~60 years old or something.

    in any case, i guess dragonkin are not monolithic so there may have been followers of bahamut who were willing to die in great numbers to bring him about.