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  1. #41
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    How do you make the pet RA with zero RA skill? Doesn't the SS piece make him gain 3 skill? Never PUP, never PUP.

  2. #42
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    Naw, apparently not. You can just check your Automaton's equipment screen and see its current skill.

  3. #43
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    I see what happened. If you let the game update the PUP level, you end up with 3/3. You need to use the Rabao trick before the warp trick to make this work. Where is the stat+24 from?

  4. #44
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    You can do it with Maneuvers and Puppetry Dastanas/+1.
    https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Maneuver

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    How do you make the pet RA with zero RA skill? Doesn't the SS piece make him gain 3 skill? Never PUP, never PUP.
    When I did it, I used a test server glitch that caused your skills to not be updated properly, and all show at level 0. Your puppet will shoot regardless of skill, and all the head does is increase the rank of the skill, not give a straight +skill bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Okay, thanks!

    Just for future testing reasons, does anyone have any idea how we got up to +27 Stat? I can see how we could get up to +24, but not +27.

    Also, I think I just hit upon a method that will let me figure out the DEX/STR relationship. If you activate an Automaton and then don't deactivate before you warp, when you return it is the same level as when you left. On the test server, you can change your job level in town. Apart from allowing me to rule out Puppetmaster Level as a factor, I can get more Stat values on my level 59 Automaton.

    It could have:
    Stat+4
    Stat+5
    Stat+6
    Stat+7

    Stat+8
    Stat+9
    Stat+10
    Stat+11
    Stat+12
    Stat+13
    Stat+14
    Stat+15
    Stat+16
    Stat+17
    Stat+18
    Stat+19
    Stat+20
    Stat+21
    Stat+22
    Stat+23
    Stat+24


    If I can't figure out the equation with that much data, I might as well give up.
    You didn't know about that? I thought I talked to you about how I was abusing that while I was tasting way back then?

    Anyway, I still have all my data from back then, though it's a bit sloppy and unkempt, because it was mostly just scribbling notes down in notepad as I did it, but if you want byrth, I can send it your way. I'm way to out of date to be able to sort out what's what atm, given how long it's been since I played regularly, and I don't have the money to play right now, so I can't do much aside from help run numbers, but I'd be happy to help, since FFXI math entertains me endlessly

    edit: pulled up my old data and started poking around in it. Skill increases damage 3 at a time, rather than a linear 1 damage every 3 levels, so it works out to be 9 damage every 3 levels, or at least that's how it worked when I was testing it, the only quirk was that it didn't start at 0/1, it was offset so that your damage wouldn't hit 1 until your skill was level 6. The actual formula I had worked out was D=(((Skill-5)/9)*3) and that at 99, sharpshot needed 102 str to cap dSTR vs ronf bunnies with Choke cast on them to ensure a floored VIT of 1, meaning that dSTR capped at 101. The numbers also showed that sharpshot's dSTR capped at 84 at level 75, and I could swear I did some testing at a level lower than 75, but I can't find it anywhere, so I can't really compare that to your level 59 testing, but I can compare the level 99 stuff, lemme play with it.

    Oh, and for the record, when you're working with the DEX mod, don't forget the Cirque guanti +1/2. Once you can account for either the dex or the strength, they help a fair amount.

    Edit: mmmmm, alrighty, if we use one of your level 99 results, let's just go with the naked one for the moment, so 417 skill (135 damage by my numbers) 92 str 96 dex 255 damage (189 from fSTR column; 148 from DEX column)... Knocking out the damage from skill leaves us with 120 damage between fSTR and the DEX mod. We know the dex mod is around 50% with alpha (I'm assuming you're using the 0.85 alpha value), which would give a D bonus of 40 from dex, so 80 left for fSTR, which is a little over your estimated caps, but only by 7 damage. Hmmm, if we try one where we know fSTR is capped but no change to dex, so 262 damage, we have 87 to from fSTR. Now, given the nature of sharpshot's ranged attacks, since they're functionally damaging JAs, rather than mini WS, I'm honestly wonderingif there's no alpha value and it's just straight dex/2. If we use that, the first value would shift to 72, and the second to 79. 24+49 = 73, but if we tweaked it all just a bit, increasing the fSTR caps by 1 each for a total of 75, and adjusting the dex mod to a floored 55%, it's nearly dead on for capped fSTR's value for both the capped fSTR with no increase to dex, and with a dex of 104, and a couple others, but it doesn't scale cleanly for all of them, so there probably is an alpha value involved that's allowing them to stay at a value longer than would be possible with a strait 55% mod.

    However, if there is an alpha value involved, it doesn't seem like it can be .85, because the damage range isn't right. the lowest capped fSTR damage (96 dex -> +52 damage) would need a ~63% dex mod, while the highest (130~133 -> +67 damage) would need a ~58% dex mod.... hmmm. The ~5% difference is there with the 73 fSTR cap, too. Honestly, I don't think it's as simple as a floor(floor(Dex*50~60%)*alpha), because I can't find a value for that, be it the %modor the alpha, that actually makes the whole range work. Looking at how the range adjusts itself, the pattern seems to be something like an alternating 4, 3, skip number, 3, 4; by which I mean, as an arbitrary number example,
    Code:
    DEX - Damage Increase
     1    +1
     2    +1
     3    +1
     4    +1
     5    +2
     6    +2
     7    +2
     8    +4
     9    +4
    10    +4
    11    +5
    12    +5
    13    +5
    14    +5
    I'm just a bit too rusty to quickly identify what that would result from

  6. #46
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    Are you sure the dSTR cap at 99 was 101 instead of 100? That seems similar to BLU fSTR cap seen here.

    75/5 = 15
    15+7 = 22fSTR Cap
    fSTR2 Cap = fSTR*2
    fSTR2 Cap = 22*2 = 44
    dSTR=(fSTR2*2)-4
    dSTR=88-4 = 84

    99/5 = 19.8
    19+7 = 26
    26*2 = 52
    52*2 = 104
    104-4 = 100

    Edit: They were made around the same pack and have no weapon rank.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    Are you sure the cap was 101 instead of 100? That seems similar to BLU fSTR cap seen here.

    75/5 = 15
    15+7 = 22fSTR Cap
    fSTR2 Cap = fSTR*2
    fSTR2 Cap = 22*2 = 44
    dSTR=(fSTR2*2)-4
    dSTR=88-4 = 84

    99/5 = 19.8
    19+7 = 26
    26*2 = 52
    52*2 = 104
    104-4 = 100
    mmm, I remember when we were testing it, byrth brought up that point, and as far as I can recall, we worked it out that it had to be 101, but I can't remember the exact evidence for it, nor can I find it. Keep in mind that it's been over a year since then, so I could also be remembering incorrectly. I can't find anywhere where I managed to nail 101 str, because getting +9 str at 99 against bunnies isn't possible, and I can't find any numbers of trying it at 98, where sharpshot's base str is 91, where it is possible with the cirque guanti +1 (I did others at 98, but that particular one I didn't)

    Given that blu and pup were released concurrently, though, I wouldn't be surprised if their non-standard damage formulas are the same, or very similar, especially given what you've got there.

  8. #48
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    The equation that you have in your threads is FLOOR(Skill*.11)*3 I'm not sure that either formula is correct, given my level 59 results. The level 99 results regress to like 12~14 base damage for both incredibly low skill and 400+ skill, but the level 59 results leave a remainder of 56 damage and my level 14 results leave a remainder of about 20 damage. I would expect the remainder to either be constant (ideal) or to scale with PUP level.

    DEX and STR also interact in some way that we don't have a hold on yet. I will have to look at this more later. Do you have the raw testing data anywhere?

  9. #49
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    Perhaps the equation is different, but the fSTR cap and expected dSTR at least matches quite well. I had difficulty achieving 101STR exactly, so I used excel to find another LV/STR value achievable solely through maneuvers.

    LV90 grants the pet 83 STR and you gain 7STR/maneuver. So, 2 maneuvers and you should cap fSTR.

    fSTR Cap = 90/5 = 18
    fSTR Cap = 18+7 = 25
    fSTR2 Cap = fSTR*2 = 25*2 = 50
    dSTR = (fSTR*2)-4

    With a VIT1 Rabbit using Elemental Debuff and attempting to cap fSTR, you have . . .

    STR-1 = (50*2)-4
    STR = 97

    Fire0: 696 DMG
    Fire1: 711
    Fire2: 729
    Fire3: 729

    So, fSTR seemed to cap where expected.

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    Fire0: D232
    Fire1: D237
    Fire2: D243
    Fire3: D243

    Adding 14 STR gave you 11 base damage, so it's not only fSTR2 that's working there. Both the effects seem to cap at dSTR=100, so that's how I came to fSTR + fSTR2. However, fSTR1+fSTR2 doesn't explain how DEX and STR could be interacting, which they seem to be.

    I might drop back to just using fSTR2 and trying to work from there.

  11. #51
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    Not sure, since I did another check with 10 v 427 skill and differing STR values at the 427 skill (LV99). Note that these didn't have reduced VIT like with the other check.

    10 Skill, 105 STR, 109 DEX: 405 DMG
    427 Skill, 105 STR, 109 DEX: 810 DMG (Double DMG!)

    427 Skill, 112 STR, 109 DEX: 813 DMG (Was capped from here if I remember correctly; chat doesn't record maneuvers, but I have pics of this dmg 2x and I was checking fSTR cap at that point)

    If both fSTR and fSTR2 cap dSTR at 100, I should expect 2 base DMG (6 total) increase right?

    Some additional data:
    Code:
    LV   Damage   BD    fSTR Cap   DEX   Remove fSTR
    90   396      132   50         114   82
    90   390      130   50         107   80
    90   381      127   50         100   77
    90   369      123   50         87    73
    89   369      123   48         99    75
    89   387      129   48         111   81
    89   354      118   48         86    70
    The fSTR2 cap listed is using the LV/5+7 equation.

    Some more fSTR2 checks.

    LV99 BLU/11SCH

    RA Skill: 36
    STR Base: 16
    STR/Fire Maneuver: 1
    DEX: 17

    Used SG and Roar to reduce VIT and DEF

    Fire0: 129 DMG
    Fire1: 135 DMG
    Fire2: 135 DMG
    Fire3: 138 DMG

    Does seem to bring back the fSTR+fSTR2 idea, but no clue why later fSTR caps would onry increase base DMG by 1. Atm, capped pDIF is just assumed, but the damage was consistent and divides by three. No one else to help debuff them lol.

    Edit: Additional check using skill

    Code:
    fSTR1   fSTR2   Skill   DEX   Base DMG   DMG
    25      50      36      100   136        408
    25      50      36      107   139        417
    25      50      36      114   141        423
    25      50      360     100   244        732
    25      50      360     107   247        741
    25      50      360     114   249        747
    1. The DEX bonus seems independent of skill (100-107 is +3 for both; 107-114 is +2 for both)
    2. The Skill bonus seems consistent (If you look at similar DEX values; fSTR capped) as a bonus of 108 DMG

    (2) is very clean for skill/3, so perhaps there's subtraction occurring to make skill avoid bonus between 2-4? May be a good idea to check when the bonus does begin to appear.

    Just checked and the bonus initiates at 10 skill.

    381 Before 10 skill
    390 at 10 skill (+3 base damage)

    This could mean Skill Bonus = (Floor(Skill-7)/3)

  12. #52
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    Or Skill Bonus = FLOOR(Skill*0.11)*3

    Again, though, something must change about this formula at the middle levels because I get a really different offset after removing the known quantities other than Skill.

  13. #53
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    Cleaned this post up a bit.

    I think the (Skill*0.11)*3 you proposed works. Skill is easier to manipulate, so I would prioritize that over inconsistencies with competing variables. In particular, the equation exactly matches the difference between the 10/427 check, the 36/360 check, and the LV63/64 tier check. The fSTR+fSTR2 looks good for the LV59 data. The issue, however, is that the fSTR jump before capped fSTR is 1 base DMG gain. This happens at fSTRSum=100, which cleanly works with dividing by 4 (fSTR) and 2 (fSTR2). The gain from DEX doesn't vary by skill. I checked, and your 7VIT assumption is correct.

    fSTR Jumps
    Spoiler: show

    Did some more checks and no matter which skill you're at, uncapped to capped STR bonus (fSTR or w/e) is 3 DMG (1 Base DMG). This is LV90 checks:

    RA Skill 354:
    Without VIT Debuff, 705 DMG
    With VIT Debuff, 720 DMG
    With 1 Maneuver + No Debuff: 723 DMG (Capped)

    RA Skill 36:
    Without VIT Debuff: 390 DMG
    With VIT Debuff: 405 DMG
    With 1 Maneuver + No Debuff: 408 DMG (Capped)


    VIT check
    Spoiler: show

    LV90: STR+7
    LV60: STR+5

    When I compared with VIT debuff, the debuff was less than the former, but greater than the latter. That makes this equivalent to adding STR+6 and that would require reducing the enemy's VIT by 6 total. Some extra fSTR stuff inc.


    Can skip this since this was terribad anyways
    Spoiler: show

    Tried applying some of this to the LV59 data and aside from two entries, the data looks good if you use fSTR3 with the multiplication prior.

    Code:
    Skill   STR   DEX   Base DMG   s1   s2   fSTR Sum   Check1   Check2   Check3   DIFF1   Check1.1   Check2.1   Check3.1   DIFF2
    198     56    61    141        21   63   53         159      39       102      39      13         39         102        39
    198     60    61    144        21   63   57         171      42       105      39      14         42         105        39
    198     61    61    145        21   63   58         174      43       106      39      14         42         105        40
    198     64    61    147        21   63   61         183      45       108      39      15         45         108        39
    198     65    61    148        21   63   62         186      46       109      39      15         45         108        40
    198     66    61    148        21   63   63         189      47       110      38      15         45         108        40
    198     68    61    150        21   63   65         195      48       111      39      16         48         111        39
    198     69    61    151        21   63   66         198      49       112      39      16         48         111        40
    198     70    61    151        21   63   67         201      50       113      38      16         48         111        40
    198     71    61    153        21   63   68         204      51       114      39      17         51         114        39
    198     56    65    142        21   63   53         159      39       102      40      13         39         102        40
    198     56    66    142        21   63   53         159      39       102      40      13         39         102        40
    198     56    69    144        21   63   53         159      39       102      42      13         39         102        42
    198     56    70    145        21   63   53         159      39       102      43      13         39         102        43
    198     56    71    145        21   63   53         159      39       102      43      13         39         102        43
    198     56    73    145        21   63   53         159      39       102      43      13         39         102        43
    198     56    74    147        21   63   53         159      39       102      45      13         39         102        45
    198     56    75    147        21   63   53         159      39       102      45      13         39         102        45
    198     56    76    147        21   63   53         159      39       102      45      13         39         102        45
    See DIFF1 compared to DIFF2. DIFF1 is multiplication prior to division and onry has two situations of deviation. They're somewhat important deviations, but still better than fSTR1+fSTR2 (Neither should cap if using the LV/5+7 cap and said equation works for LV90).

    Edit: Scratch that. Idk why excel showed issues before, but fSTR+fSTR2 works way better when I rechecked.

  14. #54
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    You may have realized this Byrth, but I'm almost certain your STR-DEX correlation is really fSTR-DEX correlation. If this were STR-DEX, we wouldn't really see fSTR capped since the DMG would continue to perpetuate DMG from the DEX. This would explain why we see the weird 2-3pt jumps.

  15. #55
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    Yeah, but it affects the cap of fSTR somehow. Look at the lower bolded patch in Table 1 here and compare it to the upper bolded patch. Somehow moving from 96 to 104 DEX make 100->106 STR a 2 base damage increase instead of a 1 base damage increase.

  16. #56
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    When you hit 106 STR, you concurrently hit the fSTR cap given the first bold series. If you're hitting a new fSTR tier and fSTR affects DEX bonus, you could just be seeing DEX bonus from that tier. For instance, not that this is the case, if the equation were Floor((fSTR/100)*(DEX)), increasing fSTR increases DEX's contribution to BD.

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    Well, what are you using for your fSTR1 and fSTR2 caps? At the moment I have 48 and 25, which reduces my DEX vs. Remainder and STR vs. Remainder relationships to ~0 slopes.

    These look good:
    48/25
    49/24 <-- looks better, but fits a little worse


    Here is some level 14 data:
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="512"><colgroup><col style="width:48pt" span="8" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt;width:48pt" height="20" width="64">Skill</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">STR</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">DEX</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">Damage</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">D</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">No fSTR</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">No DEX?</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">No skill?</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">135</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">18</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">129</td> <td align="right">43</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">135</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">21</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">135</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="right">20</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">21</td> <td align="right">135</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">24</td> <td align="right">20</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">22</td> <td align="right">135</td> <td align="right">45</td> <td align="right">33</td> <td align="right">23</td> <td align="right">19</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">21</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">34</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">19</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">34</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" align="right" height="20">45</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">20</td> <td align="right">138</td> <td align="right">46</td> <td align="right">34</td> <td align="right">25</td> <td align="right">21</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

  18. #58
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    I've been using (LV/5)+7, but your 106 cap seems to undermine that unless you have some debuff going (or VIT is variable lol).

    I had 90 at 50 fSTR (I need to check LV90 STR + NQ Maneuver to the pieces, but should be 100 fSTRSum total). If DEX is increasing fSTR cap, that could be irrelevant though.

    Here's some extras in case they help:
    LV93 PUP
    100 STR
    Debuffed mob VIT to 1 VIT using sub BLM
    375 RA Skill
    DEX, Base DMG
    104, 252 BD
    111, 255 BD
    112, 255 BD
    118, 256 BD
    119, 256 BD
    120, 258 BD
    125, 259 BD
    126, 259 BD
    127, 261 BD
    128, 261 BD

  19. #59
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    Diabolos

    You know, I don't think DEX would affect fSTR cap. If you look at your STR=100 results from the LV99 Automaton, you wouldn't expect increased damage from increased fSTR cap. At DEX=96, fSTR was uncapped, but at DEX=112, you witness increased damage. Interestingly, this increase was greater than the amount of DEX difference, so uh weird.

  20. #60
    First invited, last in the zone.
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    Sep 2008
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    FFXI Server
    Lakshmi

    This may be a dumb suggestion, but Jump gets a straight multiplier to damage based on VIT. Is is possible DEX could be a straight multiplier to all damage (base and fSTR) on auto RAs?

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