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  1. #341
    Chram
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    IIRC, certain BST pet WSs and Summon blood pacts go off of Ranged Attack/Accuracy.

  2. #342
    Ridill
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    Not sure about smn but I believe it was some of the mandy moves that are fairly obviously longer range that count racc/ratt

  3. #343
    BG's favorite asshole
    I have a fairly serious medical question to ask, if I dont ask it, please ban me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Not sure about smn but I believe it was some of the mandy moves that are fairly obviously longer range that count racc/ratt
    But claw cyclone which actually works as a ranged attack and hits flying wyrms doesn't.

    Insert your emoji of choice here.

  4. #344
    Ridill
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    Naw CC just has a slightly longer range which allows that to work. It's like normal blu physical spell range. It's not like sprout or whatever it is. Or like Mistral axe range. That said the only thing consistent about SE is it's inconsistency

  5. #345
    Sea Torques
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    Claw Cyclone is actually a physical damage conal AOE, even though it's a ridiculously narrow "cone".

    "Leaf Dagger" is the mandy move that you guys are thinking of that is based on ranged accuracy.

  6. #346
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    Titan's "ranged" bloodpacts all go off of physical accuracy/attack as well, no bloodpacts are truly ranged attacks either

  7. #347
    Ridill
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    Fun fact when you use heady artifice your auto wont use it's 2hr if not engaged to a mob. It instead will use it immediately upon being deployed even if you sit around for hours before deploying it

    Also fun fact auto ranged attacks can't crit. With all 3 dynamos and just 1 thunder I'm getting near capped melee crit rate but with 3 thunder I get zero. Even with mighty strikes still zero.

  8. #348
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobs67 View Post
    Titan's "ranged" bloodpacts all go off of physical accuracy/attack as well, no bloodpacts are truly ranged attacks either
    It's been awhile, but I recall that whichever 'ranged' bloodpact the merit BC titan likes to spam isn't shield blockable. Likewise, ranged attacks aren't shield blockable. So while I can't comment on what stats it uses, it does share some properties with actual ranged attacks. That shit hurts like hell on PLD...

  9. #349
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    The merit fights don't really count, I mean the Leviathan merit pact in the BC does breath damage, so they're not identical to the actual avatars. It could be unblockable, but all I know is that it doesn't break shields that can only be damaged with ranged

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobs67 View Post
    The merit fights don't really count, I mean the Leviathan merit pact in the BC does breath damage, so they're not identical to the actual avatars. It could be unblockable, but all I know is that it doesn't break shields that can only be damaged with ranged
    That would explain a great deal..... But Aegis still seemed to work on Grand Fall, so I'm not to sure about it. Is there detailed testing on this somewhere?

  11. #351
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobs67 View Post
    The merit fights don't really count, I mean the Leviathan merit pact in the BC does breath damage, so they're not identical to the actual avatars. It could be unblockable, but all I know is that it doesn't break shields that can only be damaged with ranged
    Well turns out the game does do some weird things like count things as a certain dmg type as far as the mob goes but uses mods for other things on player side. Like pretty sure the leaf dagger still counts as melee dmg just uses racc/ratt

    And then there are those weird melee moves that have ranged attack ranges on them that work just like melee attacks most of the time but if you get far enough away can't be blocked

  12. #352
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    Well I don't know about BST pets, but if you /checkparam an avatar, they have 0 ranged accuracy and 0 ranged attack, so if any bloodpacts actually used that, they would have floored accuracy and damage, which isn't the case

  13. #353
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    BLU Feather Storm is another weird thing that ignores Perfect Dodge like a ranged attack but is considered melee piercing damage (can damage Holey Horror but not Steely Weapon).

  14. #354
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    I went and did some basic Avatar testing with Nirvana and Campestres Cape to try and nail down the stat modifier for Volt Strike (so I can make Merlinic with it). I decided to use Abyssea again because it's easy to manipulate pet stats in there.

    Gear used:
    Spoiler: show
    main: Nirvana 119v1
    sub: Enki Strap
    range: none
    ammo: Sancus +1
    head: Apogee +1 path A
    neck: Shulmanu Collar
    lear: Andoaa
    rear: Evans
    body: Witching (max)
    hands: Glyphic +1
    lring: Varar +1
    rring: Varar +1
    back: Campestres with Atk+20
    waist: Klouskap
    legs: Assiduity +1
    feet: Apogee +1 path A


    Melee hits:
    Level 122 Ramuh hits Level -1 Wild Rabbits for for 624-655 damage and crits for 673-706 damage, which corresponds to his Critical Attack Bonus +8%. This indicates Ramuh is using a weapon with base damage+capped fSTR of 156 at level 122.

    Without Atma, he hits level 79 and 80 Shadow Funguars for the same ranges, indicating his fSTR and Ratio are both capped against them. So he has a weapon damage of 156 before stat modifiers.



    Volt Strike:
    Volt Strike is 3 hits and replicates fTP. It does crazy ridiculous awesome damage against endgame content when you have Bolstered frailty. As an example, I accidentally selected the NM path last night and ended up fighting Glassy Thinker with my mule as SMN+GEO. I opened with Bolstered Frailty/Dia II + Astral Conduit 55-70k Volt Strike spam and that took him to 25% (and it took 10 minutes of kiting using 15k Volt Strikes to kill him). However, its damage is overcome by Flaming Crush against weaker content. Flaming Crush does 50k with NQ Indi-Frailty against Transcendent monsters or ~30k without Frailty (still plenty to kill them, so I just use indi-refresh on the mule), while Volt Strike does like 30k damage with NQ Frailty and Dia II. I don't know much more about the mechanics of this WS beyond what I've said here (and that Nirvana AM3 makes it even more awesome because fTP replicates across additional hits).

    Level -1 Wild Rabbits took 11099-11607 damage from Volt Strike when it didn't crit, or 12177-12540 when it did. That gives me a base WS damage*fTP of 1106-1109. This gives a likely fTP range of ~7.1 (no modifier) to ~2.4 (100% modifier), with my bet being somewhere around 5 fTP (~30% mod).

    Against level 79 Funguar with 1133 attack and +150% BPD, Ramuh's Volt Strike did 10260-12302 damage. This range is different from the Level -1 Wild Rabbits and exceeds the possible range for capped Ratio (12302/10260 is 1.2x, max range should be 1.05*1.08=1.134x, Wild Rabbits were 1.13x), so Volt Strike appears to have an attack penalty. To test this, I had my mule use Beast Roll, which restored me to the same damage range that I saw on Wild Rabbits.

    Next, I put on DEX+50 (Atma of the Omnipotent) and went around Volt Striking level 79-80 Funguars once more. I did 11232-11593 damage from Volt Strike on non-crits and 12152-12450 on crits. This gives me a base WS damage*fTP of 1104-1122. This doesn't technically exclude a 10% DEX mod with a really high modifier of something else (and thus low fTP), but it seems pretty unlikely that Volt Strike has a meaningful DEX mod.

    Next, I put on STR+140 (Atma of the Roaring Laughter, Stout Arm, and Voracious Violet) and went around Volt Striking level 79-80 Funguars once more. I did 12025-12581 damage from Volt Strike on non-crits and 13037-13484 on crits. This gives me a base WS damage*fTP of 1199-1202. Because we know I was already ratio and fSTR capped, any change here can be interpreted as due to a STR modifier, which Volt Strike does appear to have.

    Conclusions:
    * Volt Strike has a modest attack penalty.
    * The most basic and reliable conclusion is that adding 140 STR increased my BP damage by 8%, so in practice this is a pretty small STR modifier and Volt Strike's fTP is likely quite high.
    * If we want to napkin math probable combinations of factors, it looks like about a 10% STR mod with 6-6.5 fTP.
    ** If Level 122 Ramuh has 150 STR, it's 10% STR, 6.5 fTP.
    ** If he has 200 STR, it's 10% STR, 6.26 fTP.
    ** If he has 250 STR, it's 10% STR, 6 fTP.
    * I crit 24 times out of the 69 BPs I did, all of which should have had capped dDEX and <400 TP. That's a 35% crit rate, so maybe there's a small, positive modifier on Volt Strike's 0 TP crit rate.



    Other random things:
    Avatars gain 1 Acc/2 DEX.

    Edit: As a sanity check, I used Astral Flow (all avatar stats +100) and spammed Volt Strike on Wild Rabbits. I got a base damage*fTP range of 1229-1235, so there's another stat modifier involved.

  15. #355
    BG Content
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    Okay, it's actually STR/INT. It's something like a 15% mod of each with a 5.3 fTP.

    Reasons I concluded this:
    * 80 AGI, 100 VIT, and 50 DEX all failed to change the Volt strike damage range.
    * Adding 80 INT did increase damage range to 1162 fTP*base damage, so that's another modifier.

    So both STR and INT are about 2/3 stat per fTP*base damage. Astral Flow (all stats +100) increased fTP*base damage by ~136, which would indicate we've found all the mods.

    This would push the hypothetical BP stats to about 15% STR and 15% INT with ~5.3 fTP.



    In summary, I don't need to reaugment my Acc/BPD/INT Merlinic hands with STR because they're just about equivalently potent.

  16. #356
    Ridill
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    Did you check what melee hits were with just those stats increased? Could be base dmg is increasing with stats as well like autos. Could swear I remember similar testing from a long long time ago back when abyssea was still popular people had already found massive amounts of str help all the physical bps little but don't think they thought to test stuff like that back then and doesn't look like you did

  17. #357
    BG Content
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    Yeah, they were always the same. I have a few more tests to run at some point this week that I'll post, and I'll probably try to give some other BPs similar treatment.

    Back in the day, I think Avatar fSTR might have been uncapped (or at least we couldn't hit the cap in Abyssea). When they adjusted the pet damage formulas, they might have changed that.

  18. #358
    Relic Weapons
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    BG Wiki seems to have the wrong values for Armor Plate IV. I did a bunch of tests with different combinations of Armor Plate tiers, Optic Fiber tiers, frames, and gear and everything seems to point to Armor Plate IV being PDT -20% without maneuvers.

  19. #359
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Assman View Post
    BG Wiki seems to have the wrong values for Armor Plate IV. I did a bunch of tests with different combinations of Armor Plate tiers, Optic Fiber tiers, frames, and gear and everything seems to point to Armor Plate IV being PDT -20% without maneuvers.
    Yeah I have some testing on it from last page. Guess forgot to update bg wiki. I'll get that now

    I've found a lot of the automaton info comes from really old info, completely uncited (though some say they have citation but then just link to things that either don't talk about it or don't show any testing/documentation), various pups on the OF/ffxiah claiming values but again no documentation, or jp wiki which again nothing to back it up, or dev notes. In this case or at least other APs I think what happened was they took dev notes from when they were def and then directly translated it to pdt when that happened. So a lot of it is kind of grain of salt since there often is not much to check in terms of this info. Been wanting to go thru and find which is right and not (as well as more on base stats/traits) but god is that an undertaken especially with how much other in game stuff comes out. Times like this I miss old update schedules

  20. #360

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