Currently Known Issues

[Dotsudoku]

Do I really have to explain why enfeebling being all but useless and PUP, DRG, and BST being unable to pay their way into organized content with competent players are examples of their being unable to serve their primary function?

I'll leave you three to commiserate. The lot of you are unable to reason, and one of you is just flat out obnoxious.

[Spira]

YES YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN IT.

edit: and on that note, if you think its just 'us three' then i feel sorry that you think we're the people with a problem, aspergers or otherwise.
if you still want to go down the 'you have no legitimate reason to bitch' path, then i suggest you just stop, because clearly you're only bitching about someone else bitching. you don't have any particular interest in the topic to begin with, and you don't know better.

i think we should invite more SMN to this thread.

[arus2001]

Can I be obnoxious and propose that RDM's role shouldn't be to just enfeeble or even play pink mage? No?

[Prothescar]

basically any job that isn't blu sucks, just submit to this and join us

[Obsidian]

YES YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN IT.

edit: and on that note, if you think its just 'us three' then i feel sorry that you think we're the people with a problem, aspergers or otherwise.
if you still want to go down the 'you have no legitimate reason to bitch' path, then i suggest you just stop, because clearly you're only bitching about someone else bitching. you don't have any particular interest in the topic to begin with, and you don't know better.

i think we should invite more SMN to this thread.

If you think that his, or anyone else's argument is that you have no legitimate reason to complain, then I think you need to go back and read the thread again. Slowly. This entire debacle started because several people (myself included) are sick of Tarage running around slapping a WHAT ABOUT SUMMONER sticker on every thread, relevant or not. Several people (myself included) have told you to stop complaining about bloodpact CE/VE because that won't solve anything, because your Avatar's damage sucks so bad that it has ZERO enmity by the time your rage/ward timer is back up. The only rebuttal any career Summoner seems to have is "but now I can't solo anything." Well, A) yeah you can. Stoneskin and Blink weren't introduced with Adoulin, and B) tough bananas. Thanks to the attack/defense adjustment a lot of jobs had their soloing capabilities knocked down a peg, Summoner isn't special.

If you honestly think SMN has it worse than RDM and PUP (DRG is debatable with a Mythic), then I don't know what to tell you. The three events mentioned already - Legion, ADL, Einherjar - will take a SMN any day of the week, never mind over a PUP or a RDM. RDM has had every role it tried to play deliberately nerfed through the floor. Solo? Everything is now bind/gravity immune and/or has increased movement speed. Tank? Whoops, let's just floor the CE/VE on all their enmity-generating spells. Buffer? Nope, SCH has access to every enhancement spell RDM does except Refresh II and has much better access to Accession, as well as Perpetuance, and WHM has AoE effects by default. Nuker? Nope. Main healer? Nope.

Enfeebler? lol. Paralyze proc rate is unreliable (and likely floored on most things without an obscene amount of MND gear), Slow has no effect on anything whose regular attacks are considered TP moves or has any form of Regain, neither land on anything without sixteen Immunobreaks and get resisted out the ass when they do land, and BRD has a better Slow effect anyway. Blind? No comment necessary. Bio? Will never get casted because Dia will always be more useful. Dia? WHM gets Dia II, Dia III is only 5% more and certainly not worth an alliance slot. I'm running out of enfeebles here... Addle? See Blind. Gravity II? This spell is basically a slap in the face, and embodies all that is wrong with enfeebling.

What did RDM get from 76-99? Spontaneity? Awesome, I can instant-cast Raise on someone once every ten minutes. Saboteur? Legitimately useful, if only everything weren't immune to enfeebles, or you didn't have to guess which attempt to enfeeble was going to actually stick after your tenth Immunobreak. Gravity II? Literally lands on nothing. It could have been useful if it lacked the weight effect and was actually allowed to land and reduce evasion. Guess who got that effect? SMN and GEO. Gain spells? Yeah I have so much use for Gain-CHR/STR/DEX/VIT (omg solo melee u n00b). Temper? Again, could have been useful if I could cast it on other people, but alas, I'll just hit things for 0 twice 20% of the time instead of once. Guess who can do this? SMN and COR. Our new SP is literally Elemental Seal on a one hour cooldown, and enfeebling-specific. What the actual fuck.

No idea what PUP's gotten, I'm sure one of them can fill you in here.

What has SMN gotten? Alexander? Still useful even after the duration nerf. New blood pacts? The timer blows but most of the effects are legitimately useful. Diamond Storm? Evasion down; useful. Crimson Howl? Enfire; useful. Fleet Wind? Movement speed; useful. Soothing Ruby? Mass-erase; useful. Shock Squall? AoE instant stun; extremely useful. Earthen Armor? AoE Migawari effect; extremely useful. Your new SP gets rid of blood pact cooldowns for 30 seconds; extremely useful.

Let's not pretend SMN is in even remotely the same sorry state that PUP and RDM are in. You get invited to alliances for things. RDM and PUP do not. Does SMN have reason to complain? Absolutely, but it sure as hell isn't about the CE/VE of blood pacts.

[Prothescar]

for the glory of the empire

[Damane]

First off, they were exceptions, not examples; second it's not a question of rdm/bst/pup/drg > smn in terms of use, it's a statement of rdm/bst/pup/drg/ with smn being added in terms of use for general content.

Third, how is rdm/bst/drg/pup not able to perform their primary function? rdm can still enfeeble in the game, the only reason it's not picked over another job is the enfeebling just isn't powerful enough to warrant players to use it over another job, is it cause we can't gravity all the things now and solo shit as if it were genbu with just bio all over again? Is bst fucking completely useless in terms of both solo/party use and not able to attack shit with pets, likewise with pup? While drg isn't as powerful as it should be compared to the other DDs, it can still function solo and can be used for party content that isn't hardcore.

The fact is that smn bitching about being made more useless when it already had little going for it is no different then those jobs bitching about the same thing being done to them, everyone is gonna bitch everytime either indirectly or directly their job is made less useful, it's only when there is no legitimate complaint that the bitching is then unwarranted and annoying. Yes it's true that smn should no longer be along with bst the king of soloing in shit like abyssea, but it also shouldn't be believed that it deserves to not be able to even function as a solo job when it already has limited party use.

I think what Dodsu means is that: Enmity bitching from SMN is the least issue the Job is confronting. And that is a true fact, instead of bitching for the Enmity fix to bloodpacts and the like you should rather bitch about makeing the Job usefull again, by 1.) enhancing Avatar DPS, 2.) reducing bloodpact timer to 30 sec allowing it to go down to 15 sec with gear. 3.) extending avatars favour range to 25 yalms and makeing the effects instantly cap at their max potency depending on your smn magic skill instead of building up slowly, and rebuilding them when your avatar dies/is dismissed.

^ Those are your changes in a nutshell that will enhance your flexibility in party play as a buffer, damage dealer, support healer, stunner, basicly name anything. Those would also enhance your solo capability greatly, while an enmity fix alone would do shit for SMN.

SMN is at the bottom tier compared to RDM/PUP/DRG/BST. Shit RDM has a place everywhere if you arent nitpicking, definitly has a place in lowmans and in ally play if not nitpicking, PUP has definitly a place in lowmans (but none in ally)and DRG definitly can fit in allys and lowmans too (we use actually DRGs in allys too), BST is just good at soloing almost everything. SMN on the other hand was just a PD bitch or a shock squall bitch, none of them are relevant at anything anymore, ecxept for ADL maybe.

[Dotsudoku]

The latter half of your post is both nowhere near what I was suggesting and completely wrong

[Spira]

If you think that his, or anyone else's argument is that you have no legitimate reason to complain, then I think you need to go back and read the thread again. Slowly. This entire debacle started because several people (myself included) are sick of Tarage running around slapping a WHAT ABOUT SUMMONER sticker on every thread, relevant or not.

So its a personal attack then. Let's not pretend that we're trying to argue logic in that case.

There are several things different in this thread than every other that has Tarage spamming about SMN in it.

Firstly, Tarage's comment here is legit.

"WHAT ABOUT HATE" correctly points out that enmity changes have changed the way hate flows between SMN and avatar in any situation. And that it should be addressed.
Any and every other SMN that has come into the thread to chime in about this has supported the claim that SMN/avatar enmity has changed drastically.

Not all SMN will agree to the extent that it is debilitative, but everyone can agree that it inconveniences the job in ways that have never existed for the past 10 years, which leads to the assumption that it is not working as intended, for it is so major that SE should have given some form of specific notice with regards to pets, if it were intended.

so OUR argument is
1) Avatar/SMN hate has changed for the worse
2) It is probably not working as intended

and not any of the following, even if we might also believe this is true.

1) SMN needs to be invited more to events
2) SMN sucks compared to other jobs in terms of DPS
3) boohoo SMN has it worst.

The odd scenario here is that none of the SMN proponents actually specifically complained about avatar DPS or other functional uses of SMN as solutions. They were raised by everyone else. You are the people putting solutions into our mouth and shooting them down, by saying that other jobs have it worse and explained why, etc. In other words, a strawman argument.
Other jobs are simply not relevant to whether avatar/SMN hate isn't working properly and whether the changes are intentional.

Alkar is right on point is saying that the issue is not about fixing JA CE/VE enmity, because the way the new enmity system is designed will still lead to the current situation inevitably occurring due to the state of Avatar DPS.

edit: Jakson sums it up pretty well too.

The only rebuttal any career Summoner seems to have is "but now I can't solo anything." Well, A) yeah you can. Stoneskin and Blink weren't introduced with Adoulin, and B) tough bananas. Thanks to the attack/defense adjustment a lot of jobs had their soloing capabilities knocked down a peg, Summoner isn't special.

First of all, the statement that "I can't solo anything" isn't a rebuttal. It's the clearest example of how SMN's enmity flow is borked because of the changes. Like i said to the very daft dotsudoku who still doesn't seem to get it... just because the enmity problems don't clearly surface in a party situation doesn't mean its not there. If theres a hole in your boat but a barrel covering it so that the boat doesn't leak for now, it's still a hole in the boat.

In addition, the issue is most obvious in a solo situation, and most unobvious when you have a SMN in a party with non-pet jobs against one mob, but there's a multitude of party vs mob permutations where it can and will present itself as a new issue that never existed before. It can occur in any situation with the right factors, and is thus not just a solo problem.

Thanks to the attack/defense adjustment a lot of jobs had their soloing capabilities knocked down a peg, Summoner isn't special.

Yeah, its not special. A lot of other jobs had their soloing capabilities knocked down a peg by enmity changes too.

..owait.

[noodles355]

RDM has had every role it tried to play deliberately nerfed through the floor. Solo? Everything is now bind/gravity immune and/or has increased movement speed. Tank? Whoops, let's just floor the CE/VE on all their enmity-generating spells. Buffer? Nope, SCH has access to every enhancement spell RDM does except Refresh II and has much better access to Accession, as well as Perpetuance, and WHM has AoE effects by default. Nuker? Nope. Main healer? Nope.

Enfeebler? lol. Paralyze proc rate is unreliable (and likely floored on most things without an obscene amount of MND gear), Slow has no effect on anything whose regular attacks are considered TP moves or has any form of Regain, neither land on anything without sixteen Immunobreaks and get resisted out the ass when they do land, and BRD has a better Slow effect anyway. Blind? No comment necessary. Bio? Will never get casted because Dia will always be more useful. Dia? WHM gets Dia II, Dia III is only 5% more and certainly not worth an alliance slot. I'm running out of enfeebles here... Addle? See Blind. Gravity II? This spell is basically a slap in the face, and embodies all that is wrong with enfeebling.

What did RDM get from 76-99? Spontaneity? Awesome, I can instant-cast Raise on someone once every ten minutes. Saboteur? Legitimately useful, if only everything weren't immune to enfeebles, or you didn't have to guess which attempt to enfeeble was going to actually stick after your tenth Immunobreak. Gravity II? Literally lands on nothing. It could have been useful if it lacked the weight effect and was actually allowed to land and reduce evasion. Guess who got that effect? SMN and GEO. Gain spells? Yeah I have so much use for Gain-CHR/STR/DEX/VIT (omg solo melee u n00b). Temper? Again, could have been useful if I could cast it on other people, but alas, I'll just hit things for 0 twice 20% of the time instead of once. Guess who can do this? SMN and COR. Our new SP is literally Elemental Seal on a one hour cooldown, and enfeebling-specific. What the actual fuck.

God I wish there was a Dev Q & A and something like this was said.

Personally, I think that all the shitty fucking rdm-melee bullshit that those fuckwits on the official forums kicked up about is to blame. I think because of all that shit, SE put their initial purpose to rdm (enfeebler) on the back burner. I think their view of rdm now can basically be summed up as campaign(/reive?)-solo-bitch. In that role it is very effective - it can nuke a little bit, melee a little bit, cure a bit, buff it's self and enfeeble it's foe that it has good survivability. In this context, Temper and Gravity II are useful spells. It's versatility are a great way to rack up points due to all the different roles it's scoring points on.

If it's current intended role is one like this, as a DC-EM(-T?) campaign style soloist for farming campaign style points, then it's very good. The problem is, 90% of Red Mages do not want to be this. They want to be that "master enfeebler" that they were once perceived to be. However, because of the loud voices of that last 10% who want to dick around and melee (delusionally thinking it's going to be appropriate to endgame content), SE have shelved that role.

When I leveled Rdm back in 'day I wanted to be able to Nuke when needed, cure when needed, and justify my alliance space through important buffs and enfeebles and also through my 2hr niche as the supreme stunner. Years later, I leveled Sch for NNI. I later fell in love with Sch. Why? Because Sch does everything I just mentioned that I wanted to do on Rdm minus the enfeebles (purely because content made them worthless, not that sch lacks that ability). Sch does everything I used to love about Rdm but better - it nukes harder, it cures better, it buffs better and it's got that stunning niche.

[ronin sparthos]

Don't blame the official forum when we clearly have a case of RDM having its combined parts becoming full fledged jobs in addition to changing game forces that eliminated its position in a party/alliance.

RDM during its height was favored because it could heal and support the MP tanks in an era where BRD was exceedingly rare and sole healers often faced running out of juice during those battles against IT++ beetles/crab we were all so obsessed about. Enfeebling was favored in EXP (to dispel Scissor Guard, Cocoon, Rhino Guard, Water Shield, Secretion) but not necessary on everything and only because of ignorance/slow-paced battles. This is where you needed a RDM in party to keep your backline/tanks MP going because DD were meleeing in full AF, not using food, fighting high DEF monsters for well over a minute. RDM tanking was niche and solos were propelled by the Tanaka era of slow, painful progression that made DoT kills reasonable.

RDM melee was never taken seriously, BLU became the mage melee job.
COR brought a new Fresher to the table in addition to superior DD buffs that eliminated needing more than 1 healer.
SCH undercut RDM as a superior healer/nuker.
BRD use saw a significant uptick which put more competition on RDMs plate.
RDM tanking would have died regardless of the enmity changes due to the era of DDtanking.
Abyssean era access to Refresh/self-sustaining MP pools eliminated the crucial need to have a Refresher in party altogether.
Post-Abyssean Voidwatch made everyone invincible.
Adoulin era has reincarnated enfeebling through GEO and tanking through RUN.

The question is where can RDM go? All of its component parts are scattered to the wind and anything it can do, another job can now match or exceed.

[Isiolia]

The question is where can RDM go? All of its component parts are scattered to the wind and anything it can do, another job can now match or exceed.

Probably the main reason people still harp on enfeebling is because that's the one niche that RDM both has, and that no other job hasn't been made to do better. The primary issue there is less with RDM, and more SE's insistence on castrating the already-limited player usable enfeebles. Give the job some functional spells that actually match the brutality of some mob TP moves/enfeebles, and it'd have a place.

To me, the bigger problem is that SE takes any big new idea for combat mechanics and builds a job around it, instead of utilizing fresh ideas to revamp older jobs.

[fantasticdan]

God I wish there was a Dev Q & A and something like this was said.

Personally, I think that all the shitty fucking rdm-melee bullshit that those fuckwits on the official forums kicked up about is to blame.

The only improvement they've made to rdm melee in all these years thou is temper, so I don't get your point. Even as of SoA, it still doesn't get access to any melee armor sets. It's not like they've shifted rdm to being a melee or something, they haven't done anything for it on any front.

[Kyte]

You could interpret the availability of not-suck WS to RDM (without needing specific subjobs) as an indirect melee buff.


This argument over whose jobs sucks more is pretty stupid though.

[ronin sparthos]

Probably the main reason people still harp on enfeebling is because that's the one niche that RDM both has, and that no other job hasn't been made to do better. The primary issue there is less with RDM, and more SE's insistence on castrating the already-limited player usable enfeebles. Give the job some functional spells that actually match the brutality of some mob TP moves/enfeebles, and it'd have a place.

To me, the bigger problem is that SE takes any big new idea for combat mechanics and builds a job around it, instead of utilizing fresh ideas to revamp older jobs.

Geomancer just launched naked with the ability to plant 2 feebs on a target without the pesky resist system that RDM is bound to. True, RDM can put more feebs on a target than a Geomancer could but who cares when RDMs feebs suck/are available to other jobs in the first place? The idea that RDM will get things like plague, virus, amnesia, terrorize is a pipe dream without massive nerfs to those skills.

Silence II? Poison III-V? Reflect? Confuse? Toad? Maybe, but again you run into the wall of NMs becoming a joke if the feebs are OP or completely useless if the land rates gonna be 5%

[Fwahm]

The only improvement they've made to rdm melee in all these years thou is temper, so I don't get your point. Even as of SoA, it still doesn't get access to any melee armor sets. It's not like they've shifted rdm to being a melee or something, they haven't done anything for it on any front.

Enspell IIs, and Composure was at least partially intended to help meleeing, due to the accuracy bonus.

[Damane]

Don't blame the official forum when we clearly have a case of RDM having its combined parts becoming full fledged jobs in addition to changing game forces that eliminated its position in a party/alliance.

RDM during its height was favored because it could heal and support the MP tanks in an era where BRD was exceedingly rare and sole healers often faced running out of juice during those battles against IT++ beetles/crab we were all so obsessed about. Enfeebling was favored in EXP (to dispel Scissor Guard, Cocoon, Rhino Guard, Water Shield, Secretion) but not necessary on everything and only because of ignorance/slow-paced battles. This is where you needed a RDM in party to keep your backline/tanks MP going because DD were meleeing in full AF, not using food, fighting high DEF monsters for well over a minute. RDM tanking was niche and solos were propelled by the Tanaka era of slow, painful progression that made DoT kills reasonable.

RDM melee was never taken seriously, BLU became the mage melee job.
COR brought a new Fresher to the table in addition to superior DD buffs that eliminated needing more than 1 healer.
SCH undercut RDM as a superior healer/nuker.
BRD use saw a significant uptick which put more competition on RDMs plate.
RDM tanking would have died regardless of the enmity changes due to the era of DDtanking.
Abyssean era access to Refresh/self-sustaining MP pools eliminated the crucial need to have a Refresher in party altogether.
Post-Abyssean Voidwatch made everyone invincible.
Adoulin era has reincarnated enfeebling through GEO and tanking through RUN.

The question is where can RDM go? All of its component parts are scattered to the wind and anything it can do, another job can now match or exceed.

I think the best way for RDM to go is to be an all around well rounded mage, that can fit several roles at time, be good-okeish at them but not the best. Similar like SCH, very versatile, good at most things, but not best (only in some cases). I think I even posted on the OF some suggestion to this: (woops I did it in the german forums)

Boils down to the following:
-Change of the magic skills divine and dark magic from E to C+
-Change of enhancing magic skill from B- to A+
-Merit 2 Category abolishment + adjustments: makeing all merit 2 spells accessable as scrolls at lvl 75, while changing the merit 2 categorys to the way to enhance the potency of the spells.
-Change of the following spells to make them able to be cast on other PT members and accessionable: Gain-Spells, single target Barspells, Temper, Enspell I+II
-Adding the spell "Fasten" (castable on other PT members too): buff that reduces cast and recast time of spells by 20% (if cast with 500 enh. magic skill), stacks with haste.
-Demolishing the penalty to Composur
-Changes to WHM: haste II
-Changes to SCH: Adloqium spell grants +1/tic TP regain per 125 enhancing magic, capping at 5TP/tic at 500 enh. magic

I think the best way to make RDM relevant again, is to focus on its buffing part, while giving WHM and SCH their unique spells to shine too, so you have the availability to pick between 3 mages.
RDM (with above changes): Variety of Debuffs/nukes, available to enhance DA rate of your melees and dmg of your melees with enspell II, while granting defensiv capabilitys with Phalanx and being able to Fasten your mages + Gain spells, Refresh II etc.
WHM: superior healer with the luxury of Haste II and Boost spells
SCH: perfect mobile healer with Regen V and Adloqium to add mobility to your party, perfectly suited for mobile PTs or for RNG pts that need Regain. Limited enmity control with enmity spells.


Depending on your PT setup, situation/event and buffs from other sources one mage would fit better then the other.

[Alkar]

I thought I already pointed out that changing enmity values for the avatar or the Summoner isn't going to change shit. Avatars do not generate enmity with current values, they constantly lose enmity. Even reducing JA enmity won't fix this because we'll still have to deal with a pet that can't keep up and can only grab attention for a few seconds every 45.
So no, I'm sure we get what the issue is clearly. In fact a few posts ago I said that avatar DPS needs to be drastically increased. Heck, we've been saying this for years because it's always been shit compared to every other job but SE decided to ignore us. Now this issue arises and we're supposed to simply shut up because it's not as obvious in party?
Removing options from the playerbase is suddenly a good thing? Please, let's not try to find excuses for shitty programming.
Summoner has been soloing for 10 years now, don't give me this BS that it's not meant to. My avatar is meant to keep hate and tank by design (see the fact that they automatically try to save my ass if something attacks me) and they now can't do that. Yes, it's broken and it is an issue.
And why even mention the def. update? You're aware that Summoner has the lowest def. in the game as well as shit HP right? Guess who's gonna die first?
Yeah, Stoneskin and Blink exist. Try applying those two when there's a monster hitting you and let's see how long they last with a pet that can't keep anything off your ass. Going out of range is not even an option because reeves happen in very small areas and going out of range means abandoning the whole thing.
PD is a shitty excuse for a job. "Use one ability and then sit there and watch the real DDs kill the thing" is not fun so stop even bringing it up. I'm all for removing that crap, it only made the whole game worse and it's an excuse to never touch the job again.

[The Blackrose]

Everyone.

Consider this a request to step back and take a few deep breaths. I understand that people have qualms about SMN and RDM, but going at each others' throats isn't going to fix matters.

[Brill Weave]

That was TBR's nice way of saying calm the fuck down.