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  1. #21
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    In a token system: people with more time will do more runs, get more tokens and finish long before you do.

    I believe that's all he meant. He did say "the difference is you get what you want" and while that's a big difference which he seems to be downplaying, it's not not like he's wrong: people with time do have an advantage over people who don't have as much time, regardless of the system.

  2. #22

    The main difference is in pacing and knowing how much you need to do in order to get what you want (which is also more rewarding than DID IT DROP YET?!). It's obvious that people with more time will finish first but the point is to make a system that doesn't have you wasting your life for random gain. Because... you know, people with more time get more out of that arrangement than people without. Y'know?

  3. #23

    FYI looking at 14 as an example. If games catered to people with more time then there wouldn't add things like Leves or time limits on dungeon runs. They already said that there will be a token system in place also, for many types of things. It really has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore either. It really has to do with just giving people a fixed progress for the time spent, over say spending hours a day getting absolutely nothing done. I am sure any player hardcore or not would appreciate that. Yes hardcore players with much more time would get things done sooner, but that is not the point at all. The point is effectively rewarding the time spent in game.

    People just want to know that if they only can log into a game for 30 minutes on a particular day its not wasted. This is way more attractive and will incentive much more people to play, than the game that the only way to progress is to spend 4hrs every single day for a chance at something that you may never get, cus there are people who play more that will get priority over you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    In a token system: people with more time will do more runs, get more tokens and finish long before you do.

    I believe that's all he meant. He did say "the difference is you get what you want" and while that's a big difference which he seems to be downplaying, it's not not like he's wrong: people with time do have an advantage over people who don't have as much time, regardless of the system.
    This is why Abyssea was such a great add-on for FFXI. After years of all the random drop shit, you could actually target what you want and make progress.

    I'm all for rare drops and difficulty, but in 2004 there should have been some sort of token system in place for ridill, d ring, and blurple.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    In a token system: people with more time will do more runs, get more tokens and finish long before you do.

    I believe that's all he meant. He did say "the difference is you get what you want" and while that's a big difference which he seems to be downplaying, it's not not like he's wrong: people with time do have an advantage over people who don't have as much time, regardless of the system.
    Precisely. I didn't mean to downplay that point, it seemed obvious enough what the purpose of tokens is to seasoned mmo gamers without needing to mention it. It's just the nature of games that to "play more" equals to "get more". And to further drive this point home; with tokens you can get MORE gear in the same or less amount of time by doing more work (getting more tokens). So instead of waiting 3 months to finish 1 set of Darklight gear on a RNG system, you might be able to get every set of Darklight gear in 3 months worth of runs with a token system. You still get more for doing more.

    There's no stick up my ass and I wasn't referring to my community. IGC has its share of hardcores (not in our XIV guild) and they get more because they put in more, guess we're just all cool with that because it's the way it is. Token systems are very good for the casual or average gamers. On the same "token" they can be easily used by the hardcore player to finish getting what they want even faster than previously and getting even more than they shoot for too.

  6. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    Precisely. I didn't mean to downplay that point, it seemed obvious enough what the purpose of tokens is to seasoned mmo gamers without needing to mention it. It's just the nature of games that to "play more" equals to "get more". And to further drive this point home; with tokens you can get MORE gear in the same or less amount of time by doing more work (getting more tokens). So instead of waiting 3 months to finish 1 set of Darklight gear on a RNG system, you might be able to get every set of Darklight gear in 3 months worth of runs with a token system. You still get more for doing more.
    Again, stop ignoring what the point is.

    It's not that I care that playing more = getting more, I care that my time is being spent properly towards tangible progress that isn't there with RNG. You can't judge it with RNG, but you can with tokens. You down played pretty much the only reason to have a token system which is efficiency. There's also the fact that token systems don't rely on you lotting against other people in the same event who do play more and thus get favoured/first pick of loot when it comes to new events (which is what the proper loot options thing is about).

    Token systems are just not the same, they affect people with less time far more positively than those with. And if other game systems come into play (scoring/lockouts/diminishing effects/difficulty) then it further decreases the gap between time and efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    There's no stick up my ass and I wasn't referring to my community. IGC has its share of hardcores (not in our XIV guild) and they get more because they put in more, guess we're just all cool with that because it's the way it is. Token systems are very good for the casual or average gamers. On the same "token" they can be easily used by the hardcore player to finish getting what they want even faster than previously and getting even more than they shoot for too.
    Again, like I said the ideal doesn't always happen and not every community is like that. Why are you arguing with an anecdote? You can't disprove my experiences so I don't know why you or Waraji even tried. Yeah in a world of gumdrops and rainbows we'd all be equals but we aren't.

  7. #27
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    The help me I havent paid attention to XIV since '10 and ARR looks cool so ma...

    Yes I can get behind your points about pacing. I'm not arguing against that, merely providing other arguments I didn't feel you've considered. On the last page however you also felt the only thing XIV needs is good loot options and I disagree with that. I think it might be beyond the scope of this thread to discuss the importance of dev cycles and content length, difficulty, or depth however. Token systems are nice and all but they come with their downsides as well. There are ramifications for implementing token systems that can seriously effect the state of a game. Take a look around the mmo world for plenty of examples. (I am pro-token systems but in a controlled manner, for the record).

  8. #28

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    Yes I can get behind your points about pacing. I'm not arguing against that, merely providing other arguments I didn't feel you've considered. On the last page however you also felt the only thing XIV needs is good loot options and I disagree with that. I think it might be beyond the scope of this thread to discuss the importance of dev cycles and content length, difficulty, or depth however. Token systems are nice and all but they come with their downsides as well. There are ramifications for implementing token systems that can seriously effect the state of a game. Take a look around the mmo world for plenty of examples. (I am pro-token systems but in a controlled manner, for the record).
    Give some samples of the ramifications or maybe games showing where the token system had a negative effect, otherwise this has to be the biggest pile of nothing I read all day. I really did not want to get into you guys' argument, and usually very polite about stuff, but this last paragraph was pretty amazing.

  9. #29
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    I had 1.0, but I stopped after like 2 months of playing. I am interested in the next beta since I heard anyone with 1.0 can play. When does this start?

  10. #30
    It's sooo veiny
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    I had 1.0, but I stopped after like 2 months of playing. I am interested in the next beta since I heard anyone with 1.0 can play. When does this start?
    Thats the question we are all waiting on. It's sometime in June, just no exact date yet.

  11. #31

    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    I had 1.0, but I stopped after like 2 months of playing. I am interested in the next beta since I heard anyone with 1.0 can play. When does this start?
    Edit Beaten. =/ We should find out this Thursday during the live letter though, if not before.

  12. #32
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    Letter from the producer 45 says "phase 3 will start at the beginning of June", so I'm going to place my bets on the weekend of the 11th, of course, this weekend would be nice.

    With it starting so soon, I'm less interested in knowing exactly when it will start and more interested in knowing if they'll keep it up full-time or keep restricting it to weekends.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Letter from the producer 45 says "phase 3 will start at the beginning of June", so I'm going to place my bets on the weekend of the 11th, of course, this weekend would be nice.

    With it starting so soon, I'm less interested in knowing exactly when it will start and more interested in knowing if they'll keep it up full-time or keep restricting it to weekends.
    Highly doubt they start it prior to E3. Would bet that they flood the new info at E3 and open beta on the 14th. And I'll be playing the game regardless; I don't care for the beta start date, uptime schedule, etc., I'm really waiting for when your progress is kept (i.e. Phase 4 / open beta). I'm all for helping them make a better game, but I was beta for 1.0, alpha and beta throughout 2.0 thus far, and frankly pouring any significant amount of time into the game when your progress will be wiped does not have much appeal to me anymore.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takiwaki View Post
    Give some samples of the ramifications or maybe games showing where the token system had a negative effect, otherwise this has to be the biggest pile of nothing I read all day. I really did not want to get into you guys' argument, and usually very polite about stuff, but this last paragraph was pretty amazing.
    I will do my best to present the argument in PM since it's not really related to the thread topic. Give me a few to type.

  15. #35

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    I will do my best to present the argument in PM since it's not really related to the thread topic. Give me a few to type.
    No, its fine thanks

  16. #36

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    I will do my best to present the argument in PM since it's not really related to the thread topic. Give me a few to type.
    Copy that to me as well. Since we've derailed the topic enough as it is.

  17. #37
    Relic Horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    I will do my best to present the argument in PM since it's not really related to the thread topic. Give me a few to type.
    Make a new thread! I'm curious about the answer

  18. #38
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    Last time I played was... 1.08 I think? It was right after the auto-attack patch or something when physical levels were still in the game.

    Anyway, I have CNJ 23, THM 18, ARC 11.
    BOT 10 and WW 11. Sticking with those classes seems pretty good.

    So... uhm. What do? Any particular job I should be focusing on to ensure success? How important are the jobs (WHM, BLM, BRD) associated with those classes to general party play, raiding, etc.? I want to be out of the gate running.

  19. #39
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    Your best bet is to wait for Phase 3 and see for yourself. Those who've participated in beta only have 2.0 experience up to lv35, with only a handful of classes available, and no jobs. One would hope you could play a variety of things and pick the one(s) you prefer, or find yourself most proficient in, but if you must have a class designated for you, then I can assure you that CNJ/WHM will be in high demand, since they're the only dedicated healer at the moment.

    If you want to get out of the gate running, your best bet is to participate in the betas. Participate in beta 3 so you know how to play and can tear through the early content, if that's your cup of tea. Participate in beta 4 because, unless we hear otherwise, progress is being saved from then on. If my experience with beta is any indication, your character's current progress is maybe a full day or two worth of work, at best.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeryhn View Post
    Last time I played was... 1.08 I think? It was right after the auto-attack patch or something when physical levels were still in the game.

    Anyway, I have CNJ 23, THM 18, ARC 11.
    BOT 10 and WW 11. Sticking with those classes seems pretty good.

    So... uhm. What do? Any particular job I should be focusing on to ensure success? How important are the jobs (WHM, BLM, BRD) associated with those classes to general party play, raiding, etc.? I want to be out of the gate running.
    Given that the game is going through a paradigmatic shift, this is a loaded question set. I can try to help with some context, though.

    1. From the introduction of jobs and AV/CC through Rivenroad (Hard), there was a definite trend in content design towards trying to encourage or heavily incentivize at least some semblance of diversity in DPS compositions for your party. This took the form of differing resistances, differing ability ranges, the presence of adds in a fight, and so on. In 1.0, we were able to min/max on a per-encounter basis, leading to heavily stacked setups for each boss, but in 2.0, you will not be able to change jobs in the middle of a dungeon or raid. So, at least for dungeons, parties will need a certain minimum level of diversity depending on the types of fights in the dungeon. For raids, it'll depend on re-entry/lockout timers as to whether we continue to min/max per fight.

    2. In 1.0, you pretty much always needed one WHM. Every fight in the game was doable with only one WHM (at least one dungeon boss was doable without a WHM at all). For 2.0, depending on whether SCH is a reality (more and more evidence pointing to yes but we should know by tomorrow or E3 whether it's confirmed) and whether SCH fills a healing niche at all, raids will probably need at least 2-3 WHMs at minimum.

    3. It is difficult to speculate about the raid desirability of BLMs and BRDs without having access to their full ability sets. By the end of 1.0, BLMs had been established as extremely potent ranged single-target DPS and excellent AoE DPS; whether they were better than other single-target DPS options depended on the particular fight and the length of that fight with your group. BRDs were by no means a necessity for most encounters, though their songs (TP regen, MP regen, and in some cases accuracy) were potentially force multipliers. Some fights heavily incentivized the niche that BRDs filled, and they were the only source of physical ranged damage. Their AoE capability was solid, but subject to potentially punishing cooldowns or TP requirements. Preliminary looks at 2.0's BRDs suggest less actual damage output relative to other jobs, but this is certainly subject to change.

    With all this in mind, it's hard to imagine any kind of scenario where WHM isn't extremely desirable and short in supply, and as far as we know, BLM will be the only potent source of direct single-target magic damage (again, who knows what niche(s) SCH will fill). BRDs will probably take up at least one or two raid slots. You will likely end up having to level everything to 30 or higher for cross-class skill selection, and by then, the shape of raid content should be far more clear.

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