Itemization: To shit is situational or to not shit is situational

[Sigmakan]

Part of the issue is that every armor slot has the same stats. I was a fan of having certain attributes only show up on certain pieces. Like STR and attk were frequently found on hand armor.

Another issue is how every piece has VIT and some other core stat. Essentially eliminating those two stats from an already limited field of stats that could be used to make gear 'unique'

[Lucavi]

So then, enfeebling gear didn't mean a damn in endgame content? Stun recast? Enmity gear? -%PDT? Cure cheat? Tell me more.

But yeah, you guys keep going on about how THF still needed shadows so gear didn't really count. Funny how THF's reliance on that oh-so-despised-utsusemi means [something unspeakably bad] but NIN's total reliance on SJ for endgame tanking (i.e. enmity generation) goes unmentioned. As if relying on a SJ in a game designed to heavily incorporate subjobs is somehow cheating.

Did it? Did it mean anything when you didn't need it to complete the ass-easy end-game content? Did it mean anything when fighting stupidly designed bosses like PW, who couldn't be beat due not to gear choices, but stupidly-coded design? Did any of those mean more to winning the fights than a Protection Warrior in WoW needing to stack toughness and his core stats to be able to not get his shit pushed in a difficult raid?

You've said nothing, once again. Our point stands. No Ranger was changing his role or winning the day in fights because he subbed /rdm and popped enfeebling gear. A rdm that popped enfeebling gear simply enfeebled better, no different than a Hunter in WoW hitting harder because he stacked crit on his gem slots.

You show me a Summoner who completely changed his role through gear in fights that mattered and I'll give you whatever cheesy victory point you're seeking. You cannot, though, because it did not exist. No Summoner was Titan main-tanking Odin or Sandworm for the complete battle because of gear choices. No Bard was DPSing through the moon on Khimara because of Osode +atk gear. no Dragoon was main-healing the Dynamis Lord because of AF + cure potency. Could these classes douche around on side-content and solo mobs that mattered nil in the grand scheme of the game? Sure. Hell, I did it myself, but that's as far as it goes.

All you've done is reinforce the notion that XI took the long-winded way to doing the exact same thing that other MMOs did: provide gear that increases the main stats of a job's main focus. Congratulations on that.

[Spider-Dan]

Did it?

Yes.

You probably didn't notice because you quit in 2007 while vigorously protesting shihei.

In fact, it almost sounds like you're saying that your 75DRG did not have separate TP and WS gearsets (because it made no difference). Please tell me this is true, as it would say more about your time in XI than every post you've ever made on the topic.

No Ranger was changing his role or winning the day in fights because he subbed /rdm and popped enfeebling gear.

Gee, it sounds like you're saying that unless a Marksmanship Hunter could change gear and tank content that mattered, gear didn't mean dick in WoW, either.

Every single example I gave is gear that a) made a significant impact in winning the fight and b) would significantly reduce your chances of winning the fight if you fulltimed it. That is the very definition of gearswapping having an impact.

If you weren't gearswapping in XI then you definitely sucked at your job. A LOT.

P.S. Gearswapping does not enable Ranger to enfeeble? Perhaps that's not the best job to cite.

[Lucavi]

Yes.

You probably didn't notice because you quit in 2007 while vigorously protesting shihei.

In fact, it almost sounds like you're saying that your 75DRG did not have separate TP and WS gearsets (because it made no difference). Please tell me this is true, as it would say more about your time in XI than every post you've ever made on the topic.

Nah, nothing of the sort. You're saying the same thing that I am: that wearing gear that increases your default statistics leads to increased performance at said statistics... which is no different from WoW, sans gear-swapping. Where's the unique special snowflake in that?

Gee, it sounds like you're saying that unless a Marksmanship Hunter could change gear and tank content that mattered, gear didn't mean dick in WoW, either.

Every single example I gave is gear that a) made a significant impact in winning the fight and b) would significantly reduce your chances of winning the fight if you fulltimed it. That is the very definition of gearswapping having an impact.

If you weren't gearswapping in XI then you definitely sucked at your job. A LOT.

P.S. Gearswapping does not enable Ranger to enfeeble? Perhaps that's not the best job to cite.

I'm saying the opposite, but I suppose your comprehension limits you from understanding that. The fact that a MM, BM or SV Hunter isn't changing their role through gear, simply increasing their proficiency at said role for content that matters is exactly the same as in XI. The games are more similar than you want to believe when it comes to content that matters.

As for enfeebling, I was specifically referring to heavy, constant CC on fights that matter. That is my mistake for failing to enunciate that point. I am well aware that ranger has a large assortment of enfeebling ammo and a few traits, but again, on fights that matter, show me a Ranger wearing enough +enfeebling gear to turn the tides on an otherwise lost battle.

The overall point is that, when it comes to content that matters, WoW and XI were similar in that no one was stacking gear that was not specifically designed to enhance their classes core component. Your "special snowflake" role in XI existed strictly for content that doesn't matter, so the itemization cries for a Phase 3 beta in a game designed after WoW makes no sense whatsoever, least of all when stats haven't even been finalized or shown for any sort of end-game content, and especially when one considers that we have no idea what end-game content will even entail.

Your points, while perfectly valid, are actually assisting my argument. I'm not sure why you're trying to help, but thanks, I guess?

[Elcura]

Let me give that reading thing another try:

How about you don't, because you don't understand what fucking context is AND you still can't read. You know what "For the most part" even means?

The most meaningful changes you make to gear are only to enhance your true role better

And please shut the fuck up now.

[Raldo]

The itemization cries for a Phase 3 beta in a game designed after WoW makes no sense whatsoever, least of all when stats haven't even been finalized or shown for any sort of end-game content, and especially when one considers that we have no idea what end-game content will even entail.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, are you against having to choose between healing potency and nuking potency for a CNJ/WHM? Having to choose between HP/Def and STR/Crit for tanks? Do you seriously want XIV's gear to be a across-the-board upgrade to everything this-gear-is-better-in-all-regards and there's no question as to which is better for a single situation/person/playstyle?

I think all SD is arguing for is gear choices. To have some kind of decisions to make.

[Anakron]

Do the higher end gear make you choose between (positive) stats? Like in FFXI, you often had to choose between STR, ATK, ACC, Crit, Haste, or special stuff like Double Attack, Enhance Berserk, etc. I know theorycraft eventually boiled things down to what was mathematically optimal for any single encounter, but at least there were some choices.

I'm only 20ish, but the gear upgrades I've seen almost always just gave you more of most everything, with very minor variations (e.g. +Determination instead of +Skill Speed, but then one piece would be completely superior otherwise). I'm not talking about swapping gear mid fight, I'm just talking about gear in general.

[Karbuncle]

Sooo, completely ignoring the coherent and logically asked questions i posed on page 10? I mean, really... If we could back away from the argument of FFXI vs FFXIV armor, I'd like to hear why you guys think this kind of gear system works or if it will work in the long run. What about the Completely linear, vertical gear climb works in this MMO? Assuming it does so stay this way post launch.

Oh and for srs guys

But right now IDK why FFXIV would be worth paying for when I can pick up GW2, which is free, and has much more content, and overall the same combat and gear ladder. Not that I'm saying FFXIV is a bad game by any means, as its of course still in Beta and GW2 has a few years on it, so I can agree its not a sound comparison, but GW2 was FTP out the gate, what makes FFXIV worth paying for?

GW2 had arguably more customization in gear too as it had same gear-sets with different stats to match which playstyle you'd like... Ranging from a Tanking/DoT stat set, a full DMG/crit, a DoT/DMG set, so forth... And you had to full-time one set during combat, just like FFXIV... but that didn't stop it from having these options, and even making them viable.

Hell, I could even change your weapons without switching jobs, Could be a Dagger, sword, or Gun Thief, hell i could mix/match dual wield the two and it'd give me some unique skills/attacks based on which combination of weapons i had... Could go from Dual wielding Sword/Dagger for Close range, to Dual Wielding gun/gun to be a ranged-fighter... Or go from GS to Bow on Ranger, so forth, and each was useful and had its situations...

So i ask, really, What sets FFXIV apart enough from a game like GW2 where its worth paying a monthly price for it?

read the comparison, tell me what you feel sets FFXIV apart, why the linear gear system works, and how enjoyable you think it will be 2-3 years down the line. I can personally play a game for a couple days and know full well how long its going to hold my attention, i imagine you guys can too. I'm not asking for "WELL FFXI WAS DA SAME AND YERBLHELHELHEL", Simply asking for your opinion on why FFXIV's system works. I know its not finalized, but speculate. Its always best to assume and prepare for the worst, so think of it like that :D

[Spider-Dan]

You're saying the same thing that I am: that wearing gear that increases your default statistics leads to increased performance at said statistics... which is no different from WoW, sans gear-swapping. Where's the unique special snowflake in that?

Except that the "statistics" you want change greatly throughout the course of an event.

Sometimes you want maximum attack speed (e.g. TP).
Sometimes you want maximum burst damage (e.g. WS, nuking).
Sometimes you want maximum -damage taken.
Sometimes you want maximum spell recast reduction (e.g. stun, utsu: ni).
Sometimes you want maximum evasion/block and -interrupt (e.g. utsu: ichi).
Sometimes you want maximum total MP (e.g. non-taru convert).
etc.

All of those things require different gear, and you wouldn't wear any of them fulltime.

I am well aware that ranger has a large assortment of enfeebling ammo and a few traits, but again, on fights that matter, show me a Ranger wearing enough +enfeebling gear to turn the tides on an otherwise lost battle.

If you're asking how a ranger can change from DD role with some other additions to, say, main healer, you're right, gear won't do that... because job change menu exists, unlike basically every other game.

The overall point is that, when it comes to content that matters, WoW and XI were similar in that no one was stacking gear that was not specifically designed to enhance their classes core component.

But that's not what you said. You claimed that "itemization didn't mean shit," NOT that "itemization only assisted you in performing your job's primary role." Because the latter statement is uselessly trite.

No one was asking for ARR gear to allow a BRD to main heal, or a WHM to tank a raid. So unless you and Elcura have been constructing the most elaborate strawman in history, you don't know WTF you are talking about.

[Raldo]

Do the higher end gear make you choose between (positive) stats? Like in FFXI, you often had to choose between STR, ATK, ACC, Crit, Haste, or special stuff like Double Attack, Enhance Berserk, etc. I know theorycraft eventually boiled things down to what was mathematically optimal for any single encounter, but at least there were some choices.

I'm only 20ish, but the gear upgrades I've seen almost always just gave you more of most everything, with very minor variations (e.g. +Determination instead of +Skill Speed, but then one piece would be completely superior otherwise). I'm not talking about swapping gear mid fight, I'm just talking about gear in general.

Currently, if we assume that the stats aren't placeholder stats, gear is all pretty across-the-board upgrades to everything. No choices, which is I think the core of what this thread is supposed to be about, along with the lack of a lot of expected stats. No evasion, accuracy seems to be worthless for most encounters because your accuracy is already near-cap, no heal potency, no refresh/regen, no enhancing potency, etc.

[Headspace]

I'm sure there will be choices at end game, if the dungeon/instance calls for a certain type of gear.

Since you can't gear swap in battle I don't understand the point of this conversation for the most part.

[Evane]

Sooo, completely ignoring the coherent and logically asked questions i posed on page 10? I mean, really... If we could back away from the argument of FFXI vs FFXIV armor, I'd like to hear why you guys think this kind of gear system works or if it will work in the long run. What about the Completely linear, vertical gear climb works in this MMO? Assuming it does so stay this way post launch.

Oh and for srs guys



read the comparison, tell me what you feel sets FFXIV apart, why the linear gear system works, and how enjoyable you think it will be 2-3 years down the line. I can personally play a game for a couple days and know full well how long its going to hold my attention, i imagine you guys can too. I'm not asking for "WELL FFXI WAS DA SAME AND YERBLHELHELHEL", Simply asking for your opinion on why FFXIV's system works. I know its not finalized, but speculate. Its always best to assume and prepare for the worst, so think of it like that :D

Regarding the bolded, quoted part.

Chuki (JOL): There was a comparison with Guild Wars 2 because Guild Wars 2 is totally free and they have updates maybe… once every two to three weeks? And you were planning for Final Fantasy XIV to have two small updates every month and something like bigger updates every three months. The thing is that Guild Wars 2 is free, yet you make players pay for Final Fantasy XIV. How do you explain the price difference?

NY: There will be huge amounts of contents when we introduce the updates, especially when we’ll start A Realm Reborn, there will be a lot of endgame content. Yes, we are planning to make huge version updates every two and half to three months, and that content will be *a lot*: even before you can complete the content that has been introduced, the next patch will be coming up.

Source.

[Spider-Dan]

The most meaningful changes you make to gear are only to enhance your true role better

Oops, my bad, looks like you were building that strawman the whole time.

In that case, I agree with your pointless strawman position that no one was asking for: no, BRD should not be able to equip different gear and become an endgame tank, PLD should not be able to equip a different shield and become a ranged nuker, MNK should not be able to throw on some different boots and become main healer, etc. Because the Armoury system exists for that purpose.

Additionally, it would be great if you could tell me which one of these "true roles" the following jobs had in XI, because gear swapping made it kind of "confusing":

NIN: tank or DD?
RDM: enfeebler/CC or main heal?
BLM: enfeebler/CC or nuker?
COR: support/DD or support/heal?

[Karbuncle]

Regarding the bolded, quoted part.



Source.

That's interesting they've had an official response to it... whats your guys opinion on it? I mean, They might add a lot of stuff each update but will you guys feel the drive to get all this new armor when its just +1 to relevant stats and some DEF? or will that eventually get old. His response seemed like the generally PR response, "Ours is bigger", Which is what I could expect but good nonetheless.

Thanks for that link ... and being the only one to respond.

[Evane]

That's interesting they've had an official response to it... whats your guys opinion on it? I mean, They might add a lot of stuff each update but will you guys feel the drive to get all this new armor when its just +1 to relevant stats and some DEF? or will that eventually get old. His response seemed like the generally PR response, "Ours is bigger", Which is what I could expect but good nonetheless.

Thanks for that link ... and being the only one to respond.

It might sound cliched but I don't care. I trust the man. Even if the game doesn't deliver at release, I'll still support it for his sake. That's my opinion.

[Reve]

I think there will also be more content that isn't battle related. I'm interested to see how Player Housing, Free Company Housing, Gold Saucer, etc. all turn out.

[Kelenae]

I think there will also be more content that isn't battle related. I'm interested to see how Player Housing, Free Company Housing, Gold Saucer, etc. all turn out.

Player housing is coming out Phase 4

[ronin sparthos]

Sooo, completely ignoring the coherent and logically asked questions i posed on page 10? I mean, really... If we could back away from the argument of FFXI vs FFXIV armor, I'd like to hear why you guys think this kind of gear system works or if it will work in the long run. What about the Completely linear, vertical gear climb works in this MMO? Assuming it does so stay this way post launch.

Oh and for srs guys



read the comparison, tell me what you feel sets FFXIV apart, why the linear gear system works, and how enjoyable you think it will be 2-3 years down the line. I can personally play a game for a couple days and know full well how long its going to hold my attention, i imagine you guys can too. I'm not asking for "WELL FFXI WAS DA SAME AND YERBLHELHELHEL", Simply asking for your opinion on why FFXIV's system works. I know its not finalized, but speculate. Its always best to assume and prepare for the worst, so think of it like that :D

Basically Karb it comes down to people wanting their FF themed fix and faith that Yoshi will somehow see it through in a way that Tanaka could never have.

XIV is already throwing every possible Final Fantasy-ism at players in a desperate bid to sell the game to fans and that will be its selling point. It's a WoW-ish game with Chocobos, Moogles, an Empire, Airships, some dude named Cid, Limit Breaks, Buster Swords, Ifrit, Magitek and what looks in the future to be a shitstew of cameos. I'm sure somehow the game will get a battle versus Sephiroth in somehow.

And somehow I like it. Why? Not because FFXIV: ARR aims to reinvent the MMO genre but simply because it pulls on nostalgic strings that allow me to finally see a worthy successor to FFXI take flight. For all the bashing in this thread, many of the people trying to erase FFXI from their memories will no doubt praise XI in the future once the dust has settled from this games launch, we're all settled in and the downsides of XIV begin to show.

The concerns about gear options in this game are valid because what kept people playing FFXI was the combination of grind along with the accomplishment of finishing that Mandau, Aegis or even putting on that suit of Adaman after wresting Nidhogg from the plebeians using bots. Most of us have grown past the 21-24hr nonsense that resulted in the eventual decline of the XI endgame but what XIV needs is variety and flavor or people will tire of easily acquired, thoughtless endgame sets and the game will peter out. Things don't have to be Dynamis-era slavery but people want prestige pieces, things that distinguish you from the pack both aesthetically and stats-wise.

But it's too early still to cry doom. Let the game actually launch and all its assets be laid bare before we declare problems that will cripple the game. This is a beta test so its good to get such concerns to SE if they are listening.

[Raldo]

Player housing is coming out Phase 4

Pretty sure it's one of those "coming in update 2.1" things. It's certainly not listed on the roadmap.

[Lucavi]

That's interesting they've had an official response to it... whats your guys opinion on it? I mean, They might add a lot of stuff each update but will you guys feel the drive to get all this new armor when its just +1 to relevant stats and some DEF? or will that eventually get old. His response seemed like the generally PR response, "Ours is bigger", Which is what I could expect but good nonetheless.

Thanks for that link ... and being the only one to respond.

Gaining every armor in the game was never my goal, only core improvement, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I didn't get tired of it in WoW and Rift, I doubt I'll get tired of it now. I mean, why would I? Why'd you get tired of XI? People get tired of things for different reasons; its not always because of the gear treadmill. Sometimes something prettier comes out. Sometimes you finish what you wanted to, and are satisfied (that's why I left after WotLK: Arthas is dead, I did my job, move on), sometimes your friends leave for new pastures and you go with them.

I'm not understanding why your obsession is only with the fear of getting burned out of chasing gear within a few years. Shouldn't you look back on the time you spent in the game, and have that fun you had be enough? You -never- got tired of camping some mob for a side-grade in XI, simply because it was a side-grade instead of vertical progression? I remember I was fucking sick of running sky for all types of gear, not simply side-grades, in XI.