Itemization: To shit is situational or to not shit is situational

[Lucavi]

Then gear shouldn't even exist. If you kill a boss, you're automatically given a stat upgrade 33% of the time, literally the same as getting a gear drop 33% of the time that's an upgrade over any lesser ilvl/leveled gear just because it's level/ilvl are higher.

Can you be anymore obtuse? This goes back to the "I don't like it, so it can't exist" juvenile mindset. Clearly the millions of subs from the last 8+ years of MMOs who have used vertical progression have no voice in the matter, because Shiyo doesn't like the system.

Clear the front page, editors. We have our cover article.

[Skai]

@Skai: That's not enough. You have to ignore the fact that its P3 beta. You have to ignore the fact that Yoshi flat out said that he was taking a WoW-esque mentality with the game. Ignore it all and focus only on horizontal because that's what you grew up playing through your teens with XI, so it must be best.

Maybe that's why I still have this burning sensation I believe is masochism deep inside me. Must ask for... delevel... death penalty...

[Lucavi]

Hey hey, Skai, its okay. Korean grinders are there for you. All the .0004% success rate crafting and socketing your masochistic heart can ask for!

[Skai]

Tell me why. Ain't nothing but a heartache.

[Shiyo]

I didn't say I dislike vertical gear, I said I dislike gear with boring stats. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

I don't care if I'm constantly upgrading gear, I simply want fun stats on gear that are actually unique and fun and not just main stat/HP/secondary stat/def/mdef. I want every new dungeon/tier of gear to introduce more gear upgrades, I simply want a wide array of gear to pick from to customize my character to it's fullest, and not just "you want the item with 3 more str, 3 more vit, 3 more parry, 15 more def, and 15 more mdef"

I want more fun unique stats, I want more fun unique stats, I WANT MORE FUN UNIQUE STATS.

Stop reading what YOU want to read, and read what I'm actually saying. Nine pages, and I'm still repeating this.

[Raldo]

It's times like this that I crave a thumbs-up button.

[Skai]

We will continue to get a vertical increase in the base stats. That's how it's gonna be. It doesn't mean they won't add specialization stats to items in future endgame content though. It is still too early to tell because we are still in phase 3.

?

[YukonWildAss]

Some of us understand Shiyo.

[miokomioko]

I'm all for unique/fun/unorthodox stats on items... as long as they can at least be hinted at in the tooltip instead of being top-fucking-secret.

[Shiyo]

I'm all for unique/fun/unorthodox stats on items... as long as they can at least be hinted at in the tooltip instead of being top fucking secret.

Yeah I agree, hidden effects were a stupid idea.

[Deadgye]

Reading through the last 3 pages has been mind blowing and infuriating. I don't understand how you people can be so dense. You tell us that we have trouble with reading comprehension and then go on to continue misrepresenting our stance and/or argument.

Tell me how increasing my evasion rate by 35% is not a drastic change. Tell me how lowering my recast timers on Utsusemi: Ni/Ichi from 45/30 to 34/23 was not a drastic change.

Let's say an enemy attacks once every 3 seconds. In an hour that's 1200 attacks. With a 45% evasion rate he connects 660 of those attacks. I can use Utsusemi to grant myself 600 shadows if we bent game rules in your favor. Not even counting weapon skills form the enemy that's 60 attacks that I get hit by. That could easily kill me.

Now with evasion gear and haste gear. I now have an 80% evasion rate and instead of 660 attacks he only connects 240. With haste gear reducing my recast I can produce over 700 shadows. Now instead of getting hit by 60 attacks I'm in the safe margin by over 400 damn attacks.

Continue to tell me gear didn't matter. Go against all common sense and mathematically backed up logic. Continue to show that you have no clue what you're talking about. I will laugh my head off if you even attempt to say my numbers are bullshit and don't matter because it's not a realistic specific occurrence. It's a simple mathematical point of fact difference in the possible difference in damage mitigation presented by gear.

---------

Also, I agree with you Lucavi on how Shiyo's post there was childish. After those couple of pages I guarantee he was too hot headed to respond correctly and probably contradicted himself.

If we stray away from the xi gear didn't make a difference bullshit argument, the only thing we wanted to say was this:
Currently, FFXIV gear progression seems boring. It's from +1str +1dex +vit to +2str +2dex +2vit. All we want is to know if there will be the option for choice in the future. Will I be able to choose a level 40 +10str +10dex +6det -5vit body piece over a level 40 +8str +8dex +6vit +3det body piece because I want to do more damage at the cost of possibly dieing easier. Those type of options are all that we're looking for. We don't want gear swapping. We don't want Leaping Boots from the starting area to be the best pair of boots from 10 until 50. We just want options.

[Drai]

The issue I had for the longest time with the horizontal system FFXI used was that whenever new content would be added, and the level cap remained the same, you would get gear that would either:

A) Be side grade
B) Be an upgrade, but require copious or unreasonable amounts of time/luck to earn
C) Be useless

Either way if it ended up being either A or C MOST people would try the content out, and if it was enjoyable they'd do it for a bit, if it was tedious they would probably just ignore it because it wasn't worth doing.
I don't mind having to do an event with my friends multiple times to make sure everyone gets their upgrades, but I don't want to go do an event multiple times for items that probably aren't useful except to waste an inventory slot, if your personal thing is you like to sit around and theorycraft gear sets for every possible situation, this isn't that game, maybe for PvP, though I doubt it.

Edit- Saw Deadgye's post above mine, I agree with having gear choices such as higher DEF lower DMG vs Higher DMG lower DEF type thing but I don't want to have a million different factors to deal with for the million different minor situations they're specifically useful for, FFXIV doesn't seem to require it, so adding it for the sake of adding it feels like it would just hurt the overall experience.

[Icehunter]

The problem is this game has literally the worst itemization of any video game ever created except for Diablo3, and the worst of any MMO. 1h weapons + shields for casters are better than 2h weapons(same exact magic damage, but shield + 1h gives more int/vit/mnd/etc), barely any tanking stats, stats that take 100+ points(and you can't even really get 150+ of said stat) reduce the GCD by .1 second, no tank stats that actually do much, if anything at all, 100+ points for barely any more block % or anymore block reduction making no noticable difference at all.

It's just all fucked, and I hope that this itemization/stat system is a placeholder. But you know what? People said that in FF14 1.0 beta "LOL ITS JUST BETA JUST WAIT GUYS IT'LL CHANGE AT RELEASE!" No, fuck you, nothing fucking changed.

When the only way I'm comparing if something is an upgrade or not is by how much def/magic def, mnd/vit it has, you know your itemization and gearing system is completely fucked and boring beyond belief. What happened to infinite number-crunching, spreadsheets, parsing, data-testing, set bonuses, cool unique stats, etc that FF11 had? Did we really need to dumb it all down for the farmville/COD player who will pick up the game, play for a month because it's the new hot MMO in town, then quit after 1 month to play the next new hot MMO? Was that worth giving up the loyal fanbase of players who still play FFXI since release, to this day, and are the only players who will play MMO's for year and years on end?

What is the point of setting stat points when you level up? Yay I get +1 str when I have 150+ in a single stat, illusion of choice/customization. How many to each stat does the average naked level 50 gear char? If you use all 30 stat points you get from leveling to 50, you get 240 HP at level 50. Two-hundred, fucking forty HP. Why? That's a 7% HP increase for a level 50 MRD tank with 3,300 HP.

They really need to look at this games itemization/stats system. The above is a great example of how few stats there is in the game and how boring they are. There's no real tank-only stats on most gear(I think VIT and parry are the only "tank stats" on gear? and I personally don't consider vit a "tank only" stat). Sure the def/mdef is a HUGE difference, but other than that, parry and vit instaed of determination are the ONLY stat differences, not very exciting. Main stat/secondary stat, all resist, defense. Hmm..what game does this sound like? Diablo3 veterans might know.

http://na.beta.finalfantasyxiv.com/l...racter/363463/

Those are stats on level 50 gear, blues are the best gear in the game(I thnk?), look at how exciting the stats are. STR VIT SKILLSPEED PARRY. Yay! That 341 skillspeed? That's a 0.3 seconds off his GCD. Not that he has the best gear in the game, I'm not sure if he does, but his gear isn't horrible or anything I'd imagine, since it's blue quality.

Maybe you just need to be less butt-hurt about the game. You're example of .3 less seconds in a 15 minute boss battle is a good 4+ minutes of extra time saved; which means more attacks; hence a faster battle.

[Shiyo]

Also, I agree with you Lucavi on how Shiyo's post there was childish. After those couple of pages I guarantee he was too hot headed to respond correctly and probably contradicted himself.

It was a joke...

[Kohan]

How many subs did XI cap out at? How can people say with a straight face that more people had more fun with XI's system? Or are they simply taking themselves and assuming (read: praying) that everyone agrees with them?

I personally find FFXI to be an incredibly fun game, and have since I began playing it around NA PC release. From a game design standpoint, I could write about various design decisions and gradual developments for days, both the good and the bad, and I would love every moment. On the other hand, I don't like FFXIV. I've never enjoyed another MMO as much as FFXI, to be completely honest. It isn't the only online title of its kind I've ever played, and unlike a lot of its original playerbase, I was already an adult when I started, and I've never tired of it.

However, I don't expect everyone who does enjoy FFXIV to necessarily agree with me. Those who want a more obvious form of progression and less to no min-maxing may be delighted by FFXIV's options. I would never want that, and I doubt I'll seriously play another MMO when FFXI's servers are one day shut off, but I'm not going to imply that there's anything wrong with people who enjoy FFXIV's differences. I'll pick on the game and Square Enix, but in the end, I don't give a shit. Have a blast. It's not my business.

Just don't fucking make the company tank and take FFXI away from me, FFXIV. Fuck you if you do that.

[Deadgye]

Edit- Saw Deadgye's post above mine, I agree with having gear choices such as higher DEF lower DMG vs Higher DMG lower DEF type thing but I don't want to have a million different factors to deal with for the million different minor situations they're specifically useful for, FFXIV doesn't seem to require it, so adding it for the sake of adding it feels like it would just hurt the overall experience.

Here's the thing though. Because FFXIV isn't designed around gear swapping, there will never be a million different factors to deal with. There won't be an endless amount of sidegrades to deal with. By very early design philosophy those things were weeded out. At worst(or best?) we'll have things like "If we're keeping this specific debuff on the boss fulltime, wouldn't this armor be better here?". It's not going to go all spellcast on us.

[Kelenae]

Just don't fucking make the company tank and take FFXI away from me, FFXIV. Fuck you if you do that.

The company tanking part isnt gonna happen... but FFXIV is gonna take away FFXI subs which.. prob might kill FFXI so that might still happen.

[Kohan]

The company tanking part isnt gonna happen... but FFXIV is gonna take away FFXI subs which.. prob might kill FFXI so that might still happen.

No, probably not. The amount of subscriptions would have to become microscopically tiny to make maintaining FFXI not worthwhile, and a lot of people who are going to play FFXIV either quit FFXI a long time ago, or never played FFXI at all. Its userbase was never gargantuan, and the amount of online game players in the world is substantial, so statistically, the impact of a successful FFXIV on FFXI will probably be minimal. Referring to EverQuest is apt, as its userbase is small, but it's still around and receiving expansions—FFXI could thrive similarly for years to come. Server mergers and like maneuvers will be made, but it won't go away.

As for the company tanking being an impossibility, you may have missed some of the more detailed conversations regarding Square Enix's business decisions and resultant financials that we've had elsewhere on the forums. It absolutely was a possibility, but their wisely deciding to reinvent their flagship franchise and otherwise capitalize on the smart device market should help them recover from the embarrassment that 1.0 was.

[Kelenae]

As for the company tanking being an impossibility, you may have missed some of the more detailed conversations regarding Square Enix's business decisions and resultant financials that we've had elsewhere on the forums. It absolutely was a possibility, but their wisely deciding to reinvent their flagship franchise and otherwise capitalize on the smart device market should help them recover from the embarrassment that 1.0 was.

FFXIV isnt gonna tank. You can tell from the word of mouth from people who's been playing beta... I wouldnt be surprised if we have a half a mill subs a year in... and thats not too bad in my opinion.

[Drai]

The company tanking part isnt gonna happen... but FFXIV is gonna take away FFXI subs which.. prob might kill FFXI so that might still happen.

There's always the very slim off chance that FFXIV will attract people completely new to Square-Enix MMO's that share Kohan's love for theorycrafting, and though FFXIV may not have it they may get led to FFXI and increase "It's" playerbase :D