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  1. #21
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    I get the "I want shit just like XI and want to be a unique snowflake", but didn't you have some of that in 1.0? Didn't 1.0 fail spectacularly? Can we at least wait until launch to see what stats AF has on it before the vocal minority raises their e-pitchforks? Based on Yoshi's last letter, beta numbers haven't dropped at all, despite the rampant crying by a select few.

    I'm sure he'd much rather have it this way than the latter, where people cried and still left in droves. The spectre of WoW is always going to loom over the heads of any mainstream MMO, and that includes a bit of WoW's style of itemization. It is what it is. Learn to accept it or pray that XI continues to run for years while getting a graphical update.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisada View Post
    anyone ever figure out if this is broken or just not working the way we want it to?
    Yeah, I've been having problems with that too. I tried setting one of the LB+Button shortcuts to only mobs aggroing me after having some trouble playing a really crowded FATE (both mob and player-wise) and it didn't really seem to help much. Most of the times it just didn't actually do anything. I'm guessing it's just broken right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I care less about XI's itemization than D3's, because having chr on Drg AF is bullshit, having piss-poor defense on Drg AF is bullshit, and having 400 sidegrades is bullshit.
    Actually I think she does have a point there. In XI I definitely had choices to make in building gear. So far, XIV has nothing even as simple as "STR rings vs Sniper Rings". We don't really have any situations where you'll, for example, have some LV20 item with 20 STR but no accuracy, and the next item 3~4 levels away is 5 DEX, 20 accuracy, but no STR; where you'd actually have a reason to use one over the other.

    If I wear crafting jewelry, it always has CP as its only stat. Pants/Gloves/Head/Feet always have nothing except Control. Tools/Bodies always have both Craftsmanship and Control, and never have CP. I don't have the choice to sacrifice one stat to stack more of another. It doesn't matter that I think most of the time I could use less Craftsmanship and more Control. I have what I have in whatever the most updated gear set is for my level and I'm stuck with that.

    Another thing that's missing is iconic gear pieces that stand out on their own for a particular purpose. If you were playing XI back when you didn't have 43 Lv.99 jobs and 50M gil and you partied with a Lv.40 DD wearing a Peacock Charm and Sniper Rings, you'd go "Holy Shit, this guy's gear!". Or Astral Rings, or Kote, or anything like that. Fuck, even NQ Haubergeon was a luxury item early on. There's nothing like that in XIV now. It's just minor upgrades of the same exact things one after another. There's nothing that makes you go "Wow, this guy has X!".

    It's not about having more stats, it's about having a wider variety of specifically focused gear within the stats we already have, rather than every piece always doing the exact same thing. Having a reason to pick A instead of B for any reason other than "it's higher level requirement".

  3. #23

    Stat variety doesn't bug me per se, but i can't agree with how XI went about it. On one end, you largely had defensive stats broken due to a mix of level correction and harder mobs just getting stupid high attack stats to the point PLDs needed Ochain to make blood tanking a thing again. Or stupid shit like a level 33 amulet from launch being BiS for melee until mid-WotG or later. I know some won't like the argument that in-combat gear swapping trivialized the element of choice, either. Then you had the console/PC gap, then the third-party tool gap among PC users themselves. Think what I'd like to say is that if there's going to be a glut of stats, I'd like ways to permanently raise them. Even XI flopped there on the merit system between caps and lackluster choices.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelan? View Post
    Yeah, I've been having problems with that too. I tried setting one of the LB+Button shortcuts to only mobs aggroing me after having some trouble playing a really crowded FATE (both mob and player-wise) and it didn't really seem to help much. Most of the times it just didn't actually do anything. I'm guessing it's just broken right now.



    Actually I think she does have a point there. In XI I definitely had choices to make in building gear. So far, XIV has nothing even as simple as "STR rings vs Sniper Rings". We don't really have any situations where you'll, for example, have some LV20 item with 20 STR but no accuracy, and the next item 3~4 levels away is 5 DEX, 20 accuracy, but no STR; where you'd actually have a reason to use one over the other.

    If I wear crafting jewelry, it always has CP as its only stat. Pants/Gloves/Head/Feet always have nothing except Control. Tools/Bodies always have both Craftsmanship and Control, and never have CP. I don't have the choice to sacrifice one stat to stack more of another. It doesn't matter that I think most of the time I could use less Craftsmanship and more Control. I have what I have in whatever the most updated gear set is for my level and I'm stuck with that.

    Another thing that's missing is iconic gear pieces that stand out on their own for a particular purpose. If you were playing XI back when you didn't have 43 Lv.99 jobs and 50M gil and you partied with a Lv.40 DD wearing a Peacock Charm and Sniper Rings, you'd go "Holy Shit, this guy's gear!". Or Astral Rings, or Kote, or anything like that. Fuck, even NQ Haubergeon was a luxury item early on. There's nothing like that in XIV now. It's just minor upgrades of the same exact things one after another. There's nothing that makes you go "Wow, this guy has X!".

    It's not about having more stats, it's about having a wider variety of specifically focused gear within the stats we already have, rather than every piece always doing the exact same thing. Having a reason to pick A instead of B for any reason other than "it's higher level requirement".
    You guys! My leveling e-peen!

  5. #25
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    While the game allows to be higher than lvl35, the beta is designed to cap at that level.

    Do we not remember Yoshida talking about levels/base stats being more important to the player strength pre-35, and gear gaining more ground after that? This is his 1.0-era talk, yes, but is there a reason to believe the same principle has not been carried over to ARR?

    The itemization complaints are very valid, we'll see if they carry over to the release.

  6. #26
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    specific types of things like..more haste?

  7. #27
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    XI's problems is that these "drastic differences" were never drastic enough. It didn't allow THF to be more of a ranged attacker if they wanted to, especially on anything harder than fodder you farm, it didn't give THF a spectacular evasion rate so they could forgo /NIN and still dodge competently. The only differences gear made in XI were for the most part, against far weaker opponents because on anything worthwhile, it didn't mean a damn.
    Eh? That's completely false. Boosting my evasion rate and lowering my recast times through gear sets were literally the difference between me being able to solo certain mobs, or being able to tank certain mobs like Kreutzet. I wouldn't have been able to tank(duoed) Kreutzet without the full evasion set that I always carried around on my thief.

    A full ranged accuracy set allowed me to play my thief as a ranged attacker, albeit only in specific restricted situations. In fact that's the role I took for the CoP Airship battle that was capped at 60. I used full racc gear in every slot possible and spammed bloody bolts for damage.

    No thf became some tank for a major boss fight because of gear choices.
    I "tanked" [held off] Odin for at least 3~5 minutes when shit hit the fan once and the tanks died. I most definitely wouldn't have lasted anywhere near that long if I didn't have extensive eva/haste gearsets. We still wiped though lol.

    I get the "I want shit just like XI and want to be a unique snowflake", but didn't you have some of that in 1.0? Didn't 1.0 fail spectacularly? Can we at least wait until launch to see what stats AF has on it before the vocal minority raises their e-pitchforks? Based on Yoshi's last letter, beta numbers haven't dropped at all, despite the rampant crying by a select few.
    What the fuck are you going on about? Nobody has said they want shit just like XI, it's just the first thing most of us use to compare because it's the MMO most of us have played the longest. Then you go on to imply that is one things about 1.0 that caused it to flop horribly, and then have the gall to follow that sentence up with the equivilent of "It's just beta, shut up and let's wait until retail where it'll be better!"

    Seriously?

    -----------------

    Moving away from the xi shit. The problem I have with XIV's itemization is there's no choice (at the very least in the lower levels.) My choices have basically been "Do I want +1 accuracy across all my gear, or +1 skill speed?". There were no options that I found that were something like: Give up +vitality in exchange for more +accuracy/dex.

    And also I guess that the differences in stats aren't really... that much different. Only a single digit percent increase to something or a tenth/fifth of a second off a timer.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    What the fuck are you going on about? Nobody has said they want shit just like XI, it's just the first thing most of us use to compare because it's the MMO most of us have played the longest. Then you go on to imply that is one things about 1.0 that caused it to flop horribly, and then have the gall to follow that sentence up with the equivilent of "It's just beta, shut up and let's wait until retail where it'll be better!"

    Seriously?

    -----------------

    Moving away from the xi shit. The problem I have with XIV's itemization is there's no choice (at the very least in the lower levels.) My choices have basically been "Do I want +1 accuracy across all my gear, or +1 skill speed?". There were no options that I found that were something like: Give up +vitality in exchange for more +accuracy/dex.

    And also I guess that the differences in stats aren't really... that much different. Only a single digit percent increase to something or a tenth/fifth of a second off a timer.
    You clearly don't understand the WoW-era MMO, which is very old at this point, so I can't fathom how you can't grasp it. Accuracy is based more about level spread than actual statistics; for the entire beta, stacking acc is essentially a moot point because if you're within level range of any content, you can count the number of times on one hand during an entire dungeon RUN that you'll miss an attack.

    But lets backtrack: you're talking about gear choices like what, stacking haste? You want to swing faster? Evasion? You want mobs to miss more? What other stats do you want? Both of those are in-game already.

  9. #29

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Eh? That's completely false. Boosting my evasion rate and lowering my recast times through gear sets were literally the difference between me being able to solo certain mobs, or being able to tank certain mobs like Kreutzet. I wouldn't have been able to tank(duoed) Kreutzet without the full evasion set that I always carried around on my thief.

    A full ranged accuracy set allowed me to play my thief as a ranged attacker, albeit only in specific restricted situations. In fact that's the role I took for the CoP Airship battle that was capped at 60. I used full racc gear in every slot possible and spammed bloody bolts for damage.
    I think you need to look up what false actually means. That still doesn't change anything about what I said. You listed soloable enemies for evasion, and duo'ing some boss I've never heard of (but it was probably lower leveled and if you still subbed NIN then your point is moot) and your ranged attack example is also limited and highly situational (which you admit yourself). I'm talking about all encounters, across all jobs and what gearsets brought to them. Not just THF specifically, because just because gearsets might work better for one job (not really) doesn't mean it was effective or even good itemization. Because for the most part, it wasn't. There was no sense of any thought being put into gear, it was just random stats slapped onto some shit and hoping some poor soul would think it effective.

    Again, that doesn't make gearsets good, it only makes shit situational and you seem to think having entire gearsets to better deal with x situation is good.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    You clearly don't understand the WoW-era MMO, which is very old at this point, so I can't fathom how you can't grasp it. Accuracy is based more about level spread than actual statistics; for the entire beta, stacking acc is essentially a moot point because if you're within level range of any content, you can count the number of times on one hand during an entire dungeon RUN that you'll miss an attack.

    But lets backtrack: you're talking about gear choices like what, stacking haste? You want to swing faster? Evasion? You want mobs to miss more? What other stats do you want? Both of those are in-game already.
    Level affected accuracy more than stats in ffxi as well, are you being ignorant on purpose?

    I'm currently wondering if you're being purposefully obtuse, or if I just fucked up horribly at explaining my concerns. It's not about introducing new stats to the game, it's about there being gear options so that you have choices. For example gear that has evasion or vit penalities in exchange for more str and dex. Stuff like that.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Level affected accuracy more than stats in ffxi as well, are you being ignorant on purpose?

    I'm currently wondering if you're being purposefully obtuse, or if I just fucked up horribly at explaining my concerns. It's not about introducing new stats to the game, it's about there being gear options so that you have choices. For example gear that has evasion or vit penalities in exchange for more str and dex. Stuff like that.
    So essentially, you want fluff for the sake of fluff. Nevermind that the content of this game really doesn't benefit having fluff like that (so you manage to solo a FATE boss instead of duo it... for the exact same reward as duoing, trioing, ect., thanks to your enhanced evasion at the expense of... I dunno, piety or whatever).

    I mean, hey, if you want needless fluff, ask Yoshi-P for it, but complaining about something that obtuse is silly. Our points still stand: all of your little sidegrades were 100% irrelevant in any content that actually mattered, and they'd matter even less within the design philosophy of this game. You soloed some mob in a dungeon in FF somewhere on thf? Congratulations! Were you subbing nin? Yes? Then be quiet, because you won because of broken game mechanics, not your stats.

    Oh, you managed to kite a boss and evade for awhile in a losing effort during some end-game content? Very well done! You still lost, and would have lost faster had you not have subbed /nin. If you didn't sub /nin, why weren't you? If you want to dodge hits in XI, you cower behind shadows like everyone else.

    But yes, accuse me of being obtuse. I'm fine with that. I've got my big-boy pants on today, so I can take it.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I think you need to look up what false actually means. That still doesn't change anything about what I said. You listed soloable enemies for evasion, and duo'ing some boss I've never heard of (but it was probably lower leveled and if you still subbed NIN then your point is moot) and your ranged attack example is also limited and highly situational (which you admit yourself). I'm talking about all encounters, across all jobs and what gearsets brought to them. Not just THF specifically, because just because gearsets might work better for one job (not really) doesn't mean it was effective or even good itemization. Because for the most part, it wasn't. There was no sense of any thought being put into gear, it was just random stats slapped onto some shit and hoping some poor soul would think it effective.

    Again, that doesn't make gearsets good, it only makes shit situational and you seem to think having entire gearsets to better deal with x situation is good.
    The gear was the difference between me being able to do something and being unable to do it. That is a counterfact to your argument. You don't get to pick and choose which enemies mattered because they hurt your argument.

    And you could at least google the name of the NM before you shoot yourself in the foot. Kreutzet was a level 80 Roc-type NM with triple attack and would use Stormwind 3 times whenever it used stormwind. Furthermore still subbing /nin does not render my point moot as without a dedicated evasion set I would have had no chance at staying alive.

    You can't just pretend that my argument doesn't matter because it's not in the specific frame of reference in which your counterargument works.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    So essentially, you want fluff for the sake of fluff. Nevermind that the content of this game really doesn't benefit having fluff like that (so you manage to solo a FATE boss instead of duo it... for the exact same reward as duoing, trioing, ect., thanks to your enhanced evasion at the expense of... I dunno, piety or whatever).

    I mean, hey, if you want needless fluff, ask Yoshi-P for it, but complaining about something that obtuse is silly. Our points still stand: all of your little sidegrades were 100% irrelevant in any content that actually mattered, and they'd matter even less within the design philosophy of this game.

    But yes, accuse me of being obtuse. I'm fine with that.
    I'm pretty sure I specifically mentioned that the fluff being fluff was one of the main problems I saw. So yes, I guess I will accuse you of being obtuse?

    And no, your point does not stand at all. There weren't little sidegrades, and they weren't 100% irrelevant in any content that actually mattered. Putting your hands on your head and screaming "LALALALALALA" is not a counterargument.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    XI's itemization also didn't mean shit for any content that mattered.
    This sentence is so incredibly wrong that it's barely even worth addressing. Hey guys, remember when windower scripts came out and nobody cared, because we all wore the same gear all the time, because itemization was pointless against anything that mattered? Yeah, neither do I.

    Shut the fuck up with all this pointless nostalgia.
    The real irony here is that people who complain about "boring stats" also complain about "endless sidegrades." Guess what? Unless you can change gear in battle, if DRG AF has "Reduces Jump cooldown" but worse DD stats than Darklight, your Armoire is going to have some awesome stat bonuses on Jump! And conversely, a BRD could have went crazy in 1.0 making some quad-meld body/leg gear, but why bother when you know you're going to be stuck wearing AF body for Ballad and AF pants for Paeon?

    This is literally the point of sidegrade gear: so you can have specialized gear with unique bonuses that is not obsoleted on release by currently existing superior fulltime gear.

    And the XI haters have made it abundantly clear that they want absolutely nothing to do with such a system. So enjoy.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    I'm pretty sure I specifically mentioned that the fluff being fluff was one of the main problems I saw. So yes, I guess I will accuse you of being obtuse?

    And no, your point does not stand at all. There weren't little sidegrades, and they weren't 100% irrelevant in any content that actually mattered.
    You're just a silly little thing. You lost the fight that apparently mattered: Odin. You soloed a mob that won't even exist within the context of "soloing" in XIV. That is 100% irrelevant within the context of XIV's design philosophy. I cannot comprehend why you fail to see this.

    You're also not getting what you want unless you start rallying the troops on the OF, so this is pretty asinine, but hey, its Sunday; we don't have anything to do anyway.

    Edit: Oh god, SD showed up with his XI banner waving in the breeze. Time to bail the fuck out, lol.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    This is literally the point of sidegrade gear: so you can have specialized gear with unique bonuses that is not obsoleted on release by currently existing superior fulltime gear.
    And this is why I'd love to see an augment system where you can take your best gear and add some unique abilities to it for customization and/or power upgrade.

    Oh wait, that's what materia should have f'ing been.

  17. #37

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    The gear was the difference between me being able to do something and being unable to do it. That is a counterfact to your argument. You don't get to pick and choose which enemies mattered because they hurt your argument.

    And you could at least google the name of the NM before you shoot yourself in the foot. Kreutzet was a level 80 Roc-type NM with triple attack and would use Stormwind 3 times whenever it used stormwind. Furthermore still subbing /nin does not render my point moot as without a dedicated evasion set I would have had no chance at staying alive.

    You can't just pretend that my argument doesn't matter because it's not in the specific frame of reference in which your counterargument works.
    I already established that such things were possible against weaker targets and which enemies mattered is entirely the point of the conversation. Did you even read my post? I'm beginning to think you didn't.

    Again, I specifically framed one of my points as:

    it didn't give THF a spectacular evasion rate so they could forgo /NIN and still dodge competently.
    So when you say you can't do it without /NIN then your point becomes moot. Then you cue the enemies which matter point, and everything falls into place.

  18. #38
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    Are you guys seriously arguing against making gear more interesting? Are you fucking mad?

  19. #39
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    I don't think he did, Elcura, but if he didn't, its not sinking in.

    Edit: Raldo, I'm arguing against wasting precious resources of a game that has already failed once to satisfy people who want to have more +evasion and +haste options on gear so they can feel special that they soloed a FATE boss instead of fighting it with a group. Yes, I'm arguing against that, because I want the design team working on making sure the game fucking sticks around this time.

    Crazy, I know.

  20. #40

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison View Post
    And this is why I'd love to see an augment system where you can take your best gear and add some unique abilities to it for customization and/or power upgrade.

    Oh wait, that's what materia should have f'ing been.
    Materia melding?

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