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  1. #41
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    You lost the fight that apparently mattered: Odin. You soloed a mob that won't even exist within the context of "soloing" in XIV. That is 100% irrelevant within the context of XIV's design philosophy. I cannot comprehend why you fail to see this.
    The point of the Odin example was that I was able to tank him basically a full 5 minutes until the tanks recovered from weakness. I cannot comprehend why you fail to see this. That was just a single example. Just because I didn't list 40 other examples in my post doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other situations where my gear choices actually mattered.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evane View Post
    Materia melding?
    Which materia currently in game give unique abilities?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    The point of the Odin example was that I was able to tank him basically a full 5 minutes until the tanks recovered from weakness. I cannot comprehend why you fail to see this. That was just a single example. Just because I didn't list 40 other examples in my post doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other situations where my gear choices actually mattered.
    So you're whining at this point that you were able to solo an end-game mob in XI (for 5 minutes, in a losing effort ultimately, while hiding behind a plethora of shadows existing in a game with fundamentally broken mechanics, least of which include the concept and execution of evasion checks and scaling, but I digress) with its fully fleshed-out gear when comparing it to a beta test of a game capped at level 35 with gear with incomplete stats, when you haven't even gotten as close as a crotch sniff to the end-game content (and gear choices that come with it)? And you're doing this just because? As some sort of preventative measure for when the gear does drop? To hear yourself echo in a hallway?

    Now I'm genuinely confused.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison View Post
    Which materia currently in game give unique abilities?

    Well if you put control bonus on PGL that's unique no?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I already established that such things were possible against weaker targets and which enemies mattered is entirely the point of the conversation. Did you even read my post? I'm beginning to think you didn't.

    Again, I specifically framed one of my points as:



    So when you say you can't do it without /NIN then your point becomes moot.
    Your post was a reply to my argument. In order to render my argument invalid it must be against my argument's frame of reference. You alone do not get to choose which enemies "actually mattered". Nor do you get to pretend that enemies that are a full five levels above 75 are "weaker mobs".

    Cherry picking is a fallacy for a reason.

    And if you're really hell bent on pretending your argument invalidates mine, those gearsets allowed me to go /dnc instead of /nin against things.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamison View Post
    And this is why I'd love to see an augment system where you can take your best gear and add some unique abilities to it for customization and/or power upgrade.

    Oh wait, that's what materia should have f'ing been.
    Yes, it would be a lot better if AF gear also came with (or could be converted into) indestructible materia that gave special bonuses like "Increases Cover duration."

    Deadgye, arguing with Lucavi/Elcura over whether gear-swapping was useless in endgame XI is a waste of time. Anyone who played XI will instantly recognize it as complete BS; probably the least truthful thing Lucavi has ever said about that game.

    Wait a few more years and we might see some people here saying that haste was never really that important.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    So you're whining at this point that you were able to solo an end-game mob in XI (for 5 minutes, in a losing effort ultimately, while hiding behind a plethora of shadows existing in a game with fundamentally broken mechanics, least of which include the concept and execution of evasion checks and scaling, but I digress) with its fully fleshed-out gear when comparing it to a beta test of a game capped at level 35 with gear with incomplete stats, when you haven't even gotten as close as a crotch sniff to the end-game content (and gear choices that come with it)? And you're doing this just because? As some sort of preventative measure for when the gear does drop? To hear yourself echo in a hallway?

    Now I'm genuinely confused.
    You're the ones comparing, not me. That's why you're genuinely confused. To further explain in case you weren't following, this split into two debates. The first is that I claim gear actually made differences in XI. (Because apparently at least a 30% increase in evasion rate isn't proof enough.) And the second is that XIV's gear doesn't seem to offer any options or choices, while stats also don't seem to really do much.

  8. #48

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Your post was a reply to my argument. In order to render my argument invalid it must be against my argument's frame of reference.
    No it wasn't. It was just a launch platform to say what I wanted to say (notice how it isn't all about THF--you--but overall). Naturally, you feel like this is a personal attack or some shit when really it's just an example. One which you can only seem to counter through anecdotal evidence of your THF and only your THF.

    Yeah, because apparently THF makes gearsets amazing and effective! Not just highly situational like I already said (this is one job of out how many again? Yeah, totally covers all that). Shit, you're just saying stuff I've already said but somehow managing to disagree because I guess that's what you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    You alone do not get to choose which enemies "actually mattered". Nor do you get to pretend that enemies that are a full five levels above 75 are "weaker mobs".
    And I do get the choose which enemies matter as much as you get to choose which situations matter. Again, you aren't specifically arguing against my points, just saying I'm wrong and that gearsets and THF is great. You seem to think my context doesn't mean as much as yours, which is obviously bullshit.

    And I never said that mobs 5 levels above was weaker, I covered my point by saying if you still subbed NIN (which means, this is a target that mattered), then your point is moot because your gearsets aren't effective enough to counteract the need for NIN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    And if you're really hell bent on pretending your argument invalidates mine, those gearsets allowed me to go /dnc instead of /nin against things.
    Yeah, sure, I'll believe that when you say it now. Because it totally doesn't look like you're grasping at straws or making shit up with more anecdotes. But even if so, if gearsets were so effective, they surely work for various SJ combinations not just highly defensive ones, right? I mean they're so versatile that you could cover your defensive stats with gear and go offensive with your SJ right? Right.

    edit: Again, to clarify, my point is that they weren't drastic enough, you seem to think they were. This wasn't even supposed to invalidate your argument you're just being oversensitive, stop taking shit so personally.

  9. #49
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    Your entire argument hinges upon the assertion that if gear didn't allow you to change your subjob then it didn't matter. It's a silly argument imo because it doesn't invalidate my argument. Whether you're right or wrong it doesn't matter. That's why I threw in the /dnc shit.

    My argument is that the 30-40% increase in evasion rate (30-40% more attacks evaded purely because of gear) allowed me to live whereas I would have died without that increase in evasion rate granted by gear.

    How in the world can you say that gear didn't matter when it was the difference between me dieing or me living?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    And the second is that XIV's gear doesn't seem to offer any options or choices, while stats also don't seem to really do much.
    You weren't paying attention if you think stats don't do much in XIV. Watch the numbers on DPS class. Play a tank class and feel the difference that gearing up through dungeons vs. NQ leve/shop gear. Once again, the game feels just like WoW in terms of the feel of the gear. You're very strong if you get greens through dungeons; far stronger than someone who avoids dungeons and grinds to cap. The results are felt both inside and outside of dungeons. Previous FATE bosses that kicked my ass with a healer became jokes to solo after a full set of greens on my Mrd. Anyone who twinked in WoW's PVP knew it as well because the majority of twink gear was obtained through specific dungeons, and you don't kill twinks, enough so that Blizzard had to essentially code twinks out of existence.

    There's no way to prove it to someone who doesn't pay attention like you (which is odd considering you paid so much attention to your supposed 30% enhancement in XI, but I suppose you would pay more attention to XI while still cowering behind shadows) until PVP arenas are introduced and you feel the difference when you wonder why someone capped at the same level as you on the same class is kicking the shit out of you with little effort.

  11. #51

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    It's a silly argument imo because it doesn't invalidate my argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    edit: Again, to clarify, my point is that they weren't drastic enough, you seem to think they were. This wasn't even supposed to invalidate your argument you're just being oversensitive, stop taking shit so personally.
    Again you seem to think the changes were drastic enough, my point is that they weren't and didn't allow you any true degree of freedom. You only list situational shit, claiming this is freedom, these choices matter! I'm saying it isn't like that. Again, I'm not looking so narrowly at THF, only you are.

    Look, babe, this isn't even about you. Stop trying so hard.

  12. #52
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    I struggle to understand how something like evasion be so drastic when it wasn't drastic enough to stop a thf from cowering behind shadows, essentially free evasion. One would think a truly drastic change would have allowed for something different, say... a /blu sub for actual defense or utility, instead of just saying "well I hid behind shadows before, but I still do now, its just that if I screw up my rotation, I may dodge an additional hit here and there".

    That doesn't smell like a drastic change to me; 30% of shit is still pretty shit. But again, we're talking about a game with such shitty design code that things like this are considered "drastic" by the player-base, so yeah, that's a thing.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    You weren't paying attention if you think stats don't do much in XIV. Watch the numbers on DPS class. Play a tank class and feel the difference that gearing up through dungeons vs. NQ leve/shop gear. Once again, the game feels just like WoW in terms of the feel of the gear. You're very strong if you get greens through dungeons; far stronger than someone who avoids dungeons and grinds to cap. Anyone who twinked in WoW's PVP knew it because the majority of twink gear was obtained through specific dungeons.

    There's no way to prove it to someone who doesn't pay attention like you (which is odd considering you paid so much attention to your supposed 30% enhancement in XI, but I suppose you would pay more attention to XI) until PVP arenas are introduced and you feel the difference when you wonder why someone capped at the same level as you on the same class is kicking the shit out of you with little effort.
    If I'm wrong about how much stats have an effect then that explains a bit. This was the first weekend I was able to play the beta, so my knowledge of how much the stats effect stuff is based off what I read from other people. I understood or "paid so much attention to" stuff in XI because I used math to specifically calculate the differences and choose my gear accordingly for a given enemy when possible. I don't know the formulas for XIV yet so I haven't been able to see for myself what the differences are.

    If you or others could help me out in that regard I'd be much obliged. Given that I was wrong about how much stats actually affect stuff, I think my worries about choices are still present though, right?

  14. #54

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    Too much whining, you retards are such a fucking drag.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    Again you seem to think the changes were drastic enough, my point is that they weren't and didn't allow you any true degree of freedom. You only list situational shit, claiming this is freedom, these choices matter! I'm saying it isn't like that. Again, I'm not looking so narrowly at THF, only you are.

    Look, babe, this isn't even about you. Stop trying so hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I struggle to understand how something like evasion be so drastic when it wasn't drastic enough to stop a thf from cowering behind shadows, essentially free evasion. One would think a truly drastic change would have allowed for something different, say... a /blu sub for actual defense or utility, instead of just saying "well I hid behind shadows before, but I still do now, its just that if I screw up my rotation, I may dodge an additional hit here and there".

    That doesn't smell like a drastic change to me; 30% of shit is still pretty shit. But again, we're talking about a game with such shitty design code that things like this are considered "drastic" by the player-base, so yeah, that's a thing.
    Perhaps your definition of drastic is different from mine. Dieing to an enemy because you can't keep shadows up and easily handling an enemy because shadows are easy to keep up is pretty drastic to me. I don't know why you're so stuck on changing off /nin being a requirement for drastic. There's reasons besides shadows to sub ninja, like dual wield and invisible.

    Also, the reason why I'm only using thief examples as counterpoints is because they're first hand examples. It makes sense to me to use first hand examples instead of hypothetical examples.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    If I'm wrong about how much stats have an effect then that explains a bit. This was the first weekend I was able to play the beta, so my knowledge of how much the stats effect stuff is based off what I read from other people. I understood or "paid so much attention to" stuff in XI because I used math to specifically calculate the differences and choose my gear accordingly for a given enemy when possible. I don't know the formulas for XIV yet so I haven't been able to see for myself what the differences are.

    If you or others could help me out in that regard I'd be much obliged. Given that I was wrong about how much stats actually affect stuff, I think my worries about choices are still present though, right?
    Wait, what? You're fighting this good fight for XIV based on fucking heresay? Come on, man.

    Your worries about "choices" are subjective for multiple reasons. The first is what I've been trying to drill into your head this entire time: your example of soloing content just doesn't work the same here as it does in XI. You solo a mob in XI for a specific drop or whatever. That doesn't exist here. You get the same reward (and that reward is fucking XP, a little gold, and possibly some company seals) whether you hit it or someone else hits it or 40 people hit it, so asking the devs to include wide enough gear choices for a playstyle that isn't even considered a thing within the context of the game, is absolutely silly. You wanna solo something for pride or to get your youtube fans' panties wet, that's your prerogative, but asking SE to give you more "choices" based on that is stupid as hell.

    At best, your "evasion" build could be used to prolong a dungeon encounter, but the majority of encounters at any medium-to-high level difficulty are as such that if key components of the group dies, the encounter is lost. You have examples all over the XIV section of people duoing or soloing Ifrit for quite some time, but ultimately dying. That's a level 20 encounter. You're going to see even less of those come level 50, when fights, and, by extension, when gear such as that would actually matter.

    Second point: Play the game for yourself before allowing for some bullshit preconceptions to rule your current mindset. Can they add additional stats? Sure; I've already listed two types of stats I'd like introduced 2 pages ago. But you know what? We're in fucking phase 3 of a beta. I'm not going to cry to the heavens if I don't see those types in the game right now. Its goddamn beta.

    Like I said, you don't have to believe me. Roll on Gilgamesh come launch and we'll play the same class in the PVP Colosseum. You can wear all town NPC gear and I'll come at you in full green dungeon/company gear, and we'll rumble for about 10 seconds until you're a fine paste on the floor, and when you wonder why I rolled you at the same level with the same skills, I'll link you back to this very thread - to this very post - so hopefully then you'll understand. If you can't wait that long, then just youtube "WoW twink" and any two-digit number that ends with 9. You'll see twinks faceroll legions of scrubs in town gear and greens and you'll gain further evidence about how much having +15 of a stat over another person of the same level can do for you when a game is coded properly.

  17. #57
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    People don't realize that FFXI is the only MMO in existance for gear to matter before you hit cap.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardrial View Post
    People don't realize that FFXI is the only MMO in existance for gear to matter before you hit cap.
    Can you truly say that? FFXI copied 99% of its design from EQ. How did gear work in EQ?

  19. #59
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    Well, I guess you're right. I don't know about what existed before ffxi. I was like 10. I have only played MMO's since FFXI. And I have played 95% of them that have came out since then.

  20. #60
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    Well no, I wasn't saying it to assume one way or another. I just know that XI copied EQ verbatum and EQ was notoriously difficult, stubborn, plodding, tedius, and addictive. I would assume that stats "mattered" (within your context of mattering), but I have no first-hand knowledge on the subject.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "mattering" anyway. Any tom,dick and harry douche could hit the 75 cap in XI wearing complete shit gear just like any other MMO. The ride would be painful, plodding, and ultimately humilating, but plenty of scrubs did it.

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