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  1. #61
    Yoshi P
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    Why are you pigeonholing my worries? If you want an example of choices I want in xiv gear: Something with -eva -vit in exchange for more str and dex and determination. I mentioned this before. How is that useless or pointless? Being able to use gear like that would allow me to better focus on a playstyle that focuses on dealing damage while not getting hit on archer.

    If these options exist, then by all means show them to me so I don't have to be worried. So I can say "Oh, options do exist, I was wrong." Having options makes choosing gear interesting and makes the gear last longer. WoW-style gear that just gets undeniably replaced in tiers is just boring and makes gear useless.

    Also just incase my posts have been coming off as rambling or whining, please don't take it that way. I played xiv at launch and watched as everyone said "It's just beta, it definitely won't be this way in retail". And we all know how that went. In these past two days I very much enjoyed playing xiv and just want to voice my worries so that this game can be even more fun.

  2. #62
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    No, they don't exist. Gear enhances stats in XIV, not deducts them, and I doubt you'll see anything like that based on the direction Yoshi is taking the game.

    There's no other way to put it. Take it up with the OF if you want it that bad, and pray he listens.

    I, on the other hand, am glad to see negative stats go. My idea of specialization is far different from yours; talent trees and skill-enhancements, not negative stats on gear.

    Good luck with that.

  3. #63
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    Ok, done moving stuff.

  4. #64
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    Woohoo new home!

  5. #65
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    Yeahhh, I don't know why anyone wants to go back to FF11 gear with negative stats or stats that don't affect you. However, I do hope AF, relic, etc. (hopefully more) gear do get some more interesting things on them like in 1.0.

  6. #66
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    Drachen Brias: +3 to explosions for Dragonfall.

    I am okay with this.

  7. #67
    Yoshi P
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    I like the new title lol.

    I, on the other hand, am glad to see negative stats go. My idea of specialization is far different from yours; talent trees and skill-enhancements, not negative stats on gear.
    But we don't have talent trees, unless I missed something lol.

    I'm all for skill enhancements, and the variety in gear that I want doesn't necessarily need to include negative stats. It's just that allowing for negative stat boosts allow for a greater amount of variety. For example maybe you wouldn't mind giving up cure potency (MND) for extra damage (STR or DEX). But say someone else doesn't want to give up that cure potency, so they take a slight hit in damage potential. Those types of differences and choices add up and make for really unique gear sets across people.

  8. #68
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    I agree with Shiyo's original post (please try decaff).

    I made a comment about this pretty early on in phase 3. I didnt really explain it well, but the point still stands - gear is so boring. There is no character to the gear (not talking about looks).

  9. #69
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    Read through the entire thread (my god). I was going to say something about the argument within the thread, but decided against it. Best not to add more fuel to the flame.

    So, in keeping with the topic itself... as a personal preference, I kinda miss 'maxing' out a certain stat just for the sake of maxing it for the hell of it (in FFXI a personal hobby of mine was to collect as much +HMP gear as humanly possible), and if it came with drawbacks such as not enough increases in other parts (or maybe even negative ones), then so be it. But since the 'maxing' customization seems to come from materia crafting, I don't have that much complaints. Just need to see what the caps are in how much stats you can gain off of them first, though, and at the moment not much data has come out. Not to mention everything is supposedly subject to change.

    Either way it's not exactly something of a gamebreaker, but I do miss the aspect of 'collecting gear for the heck of it', which in ARR it's kinda lacking.

  10. #70
    Nikkei's Hoe
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    I don't get the point of this thread considering Yoshi-P has said all items not in beta were placeholder stats to prevent data mining. Someone on reddit translated it a while back but I can't find it at this moment.

  11. #71
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    I'd dearly love to believe that, but "I can't find it" has been the response every time I ask for a source for "beta stats are placeholders".

  12. #72
    Yoshi P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eanae View Post
    I don't get the point of this thread considering Yoshi-P has said all items not in beta were placeholder stats to prevent data mining. Someone on reddit translated it a while back but I can't find it at this moment.
    I had heard this as hearsay before without the "Yoshi-P has said" part so I dismissed it. If somebody found a sauce for this that'd be awesome. Untranslated works as well.

  13. #73
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    It could quite well have been a troll. That'd be sad, but I wouldn't brush it off considering I don't think any rewards that weren't in 1.0 are in any of the db sites (aka: nothing that would come from the new 24 man raids). I shall maintain hope that the item system isn't done, or at least isn't in place for beta.

  14. #74

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Perhaps your definition of drastic is different from mine. Dieing to an enemy because you can't keep shadows up and easily handling an enemy because shadows are easy to keep up is pretty drastic to me. I don't know why you're so stuck on changing off /nin being a requirement for drastic. There's reasons besides shadows to sub ninja, like dual wield and invisible.

    Also, the reason why I'm only using thief examples as counterpoints is because they're first hand examples. It makes sense to me to use first hand examples instead of hypothetical examples.
    It's not drastic enough when you consider the fuck-ton of gear FFXI had along with all the jobs you could play. If they were going to include so many pieces and allow side-grades, then shouldn't they have been more potent? I'm not talking about making one of THFs A-class skills even better with evasion gear (not to mention the fuckload of evasion traits they get) which still isn't even enough to allow you more freedom in your subjob. When you think about that sentence, itemization in FFXI seems pretty sad.

    I'm talking about making B or C-class categories into viable options with gear, or changing the function of a job/role when it was viable, but that wasn't possible. For all jobs, gear only served to make the primary roll function better in slightly different ways. For DDs, it's speed and damage, for mages, it's potency/accuracy and something MP related, for tanks, haste mostly as well as whatever damage reduction they could find. Along with gear, job design and skill categories were a problem that only got bigger the higher up in levels you get making it harder to perform secondary rolls on relevant targets.

    When you look at all gear available, you see that there isn't any real choice or freedom, just an overwhelming amount of gear that may or may not suit your needs. You took THFs A+ class skill and could barely make it an effective gear choice. For an A-class skill, wouldn't you expect more return for fighting equal or higher leveled creatures? Especially if you focused your gear on it. Yet, this was not the case and you still need /NIN to cover you.

    Even if some gear could be used across classes, it's only because they serve the exact same function, but then you can add stuff that is specific to your job, but even those don't make you necessarily more effective at performing a secondary roll for the job in question. Gear was far too ineffective, only certain stats showed worthwhile returns across the board, while other stats were only useful if you had at least an A ranking in that category.

  15. #75
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    Lucavi and Elcura, what..?
    You bring up a level80 NM that dropped the best THF dagger in the game for many years and call it "some random NM in a dungeon". This is not a random NM inside a dungeon, this is a NM many THF's killed, many THF's camped for days, wanting to ge this dagger, and was not an easy task to solo, duo, or even trio or more depending on the players skill.

    I's itemization also didn't mean shit for any content that mattered. For anything that mattered, you maxed your precious haste, maxed your precious attack and maxed your precious strength as a DD, and so and and so forth for other classes. No thf became some tank for a major boss fight because of gear choices. No Summoner became some major main-line DPS because of gear choices, or a tank due to gear choices that allowed avatars to tank, or anything like that.
    What? No, you did not at all. Go check the older FFXI great threads >>ON THESE VERY FORUMS<<, if they still exist, and hell, some of the posts were post-abyssea too. People comparing stuff like "is af3+2 for NIN better than AF1+1 on X boss when it has X evasion and I have X acc eating X food using X other gear? Is NIN AF2+2 with 3% DW on body better than anything? Should I be SA/TAing in all dex/agi gear or TP/haste/DA gear? Is it worth dropping below capped haste for more dual wield on NIN?(yes, the best NIN set was like 19 or 23% haste, I forget, for a while, using af2+2 pants and af1+1 body until neo nyzul body if I remember correctly),should I be WSing in this body that gives me more agi modifier for my 100% agi modifer WS, or this piece with more str? Is my fstr capped? Is that str giving me any benefit outside of attack because my Fstr is capped with red curry buns? Is my attack capped with red curry buns, is it worth the gil to use RCB over YCB when fighting X mobs? Should I be gearing pure agi modifier on my WS when WSing X mob because my attack is capped on this? Do I need to have a mage with me casting Dia2 to make my attack capped so I should assume my attack isn't capped and therefor be WSing in a bit more attack/str gear and less agi for max damage? is it worth giving up is shaving off 1 hit to 100 TP better than more str/acc/dex?" Etc etc, I can't remember most, or many at all, but there was some complex as hell number-crunching, spreadsheets, math, variables, and actual testing going on to prove what gear was better. FF14? "oh this has 2 more str, 2 more dex, and 1 more determination, it's better", "oh this has 15 more def, 20 more mdef, and +5 parry +5 vit, it's better for tanking". It's seriously like night and DAY. You go from such fun unique stats, seeing if shaving a hit off getting 100 TP is worth losing some more acc/str/dex in your TP set, if giving up haste is worth it for more acc to hit more, and compare your gear, and gear completely diferent DEPENDING ON THE MONSTER YOU ARE FIGHTING. DC dynamis mobs? Ignore acc, load up on crit/haste/str/dex, cap your ddex, figure out how much ddex you need to cap it on these mobs, figure out their agi to see how much ddex you need, run it in a spredsheet, see if you should be eating meat or acc on X mob, see if you can use meat and still have 85%+ ACC on X mob, see if it's better to use sushi over meat, or pizza over sushi, blah blah. So many variables, so many choices, SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO GEAR. FF14? Oh, this has 30 str, 30 skill speed, 30 determination, the item i was using before had 27/str/skill speed/determination, I will be using this item for every single enemy I fight, and using this entire set of gear with equal stats on every single enemy I fight. I will not be changing what gear I wear depending on zone/enemy, I will not be swapping to more ACC heavy gear on high-evasion mobs, I will not be picking between eating meat or sushi depending on what gear I'm wearing, what zone we're in, what mob we're fighting, I wll be using the same food, same gear, no matter what. Whatever has the most str/determination/skill speed/etc.

    So essentially, you want fluff for the sake of fluff. Nevermind that the content of this game really doesn't benefit having fluff like that (so you manage to solo a FATE boss instead of duo it... for the exact same reward as duoing, trioing, ect., thanks to your enhanced evasion at the expense of... I dunno, piety or whatever).
    In FFXI, numerous players could either solo, or lowman enemies that normally took most players ~18 people to down. Avesta was WELL KNOWN for soloing bosses that dropped the best gear in the game such as byakko's hadiate because of a combination of skill, and how gear worked. He solo'd NM's such as...I think "guivre", and that one cactuar, through using different gear, with as much haste as possible when recasting, as much negative str/attack as possible, and relying purely on enspells, debuffs(needed to gear enfeeble/macc to make sure he landed it) to kill the enemy, denying giving them any TP. He solod that kraken that dropped Joyeuse, one of the best swords in the game for 5+ years for many classes, and still one of thebest sword outside of relics until abyssea. People could duo this, as NIN/THF + mage due to being able to gear purely defensively with as much evasion as possible, a normal TP gear set up would be completely destroyed by this mob. NIN/DRK was an incredible tank for end game events because of how gear worked, they would have max haste for -recast on shadows to keep shadows up as much as possible, +enmity on all their high enmity spells, as much MDB/MDEF as posisble when the mob was using some type of magic -ga/TP move, and as much evasion or PDT as possible when tanking hundred fists, or shadows were down. A ninja tank was only possible because of how you could completely customize your gear in FFXI to fit your needs for what you were doing. A ninja wearing full DPS TP gear would never be able to tank HNM's like hydra, ultima, omega, sky gods sea gods, etc. Speaking of HNM's, a ninja in full evasion gear could tag the TOAU NM's, like cerb solo, tell their LS it's up, and keep tanking it for 5+ mins solo until support arrives with the use of evasion gear.

    As a scholar, durning level 75 cap, even after WHM buffs, I could mainheal almost as well as a WHM, and nuke as well as a BLM on demand, because of how gear wo rked. I could go from high enhancing/cure potency/fast cast gear to INT/MAB gear whenever i swapped arts. The way gear worked let me play either role on the whim, and on demand as I wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    You weren't paying attention if you think stats don't do much in XIV. Watch the numbers on DPS class. Play a tank class and feel the difference that gearing up through dungeons vs. NQ leve/shop gear. Once again, the game feels just like WoW in terms of the feel of the gear. You're very strong if you get greens through dungeons; far stronger than someone who avoids dungeons and grinds to cap. The results are felt both inside and outside of dungeons. Previous FATE bosses that kicked my ass with a healer became jokes to solo after a full set of greens on my Mrd. Anyone who twinked in WoW's PVP knew it as well because the majority of twink gear was obtained through specific dungeons, and you don't kill twinks, enough so that Blizzard had to essentially code twinks out of existence.
    Yes, gear matters. I don't think anyone has argued that "gear in ffx14 does nothing", people are arguing that it's boring as shit, no customization, no user imput, and you just go from "oh hey this has 27 str, 27 determination, 27 skill speed, this has 30 str/30 determination/30 skill speed, this item is better in every situation imaginable as a DPS. That is what we're arguing, how boring, bland, uninspired, uninteresting and complete shit the gear is compared to the 10+ examples I gave earlier in this post. If I wanted that, I'd play diablo3, and the entire playerbase has complained about how boring stats are in Diablo3, and how it's just going from 3 stats to the next to find if an item is an upgrade, and blizzard has stating they are working on this and completely changing how gear works to make it more interesting.

    Again you seem to think the changes were drastic enough, my point is that they weren't and didn't allow you any true degree of freedom. You only list situational shit, claiming this is freedom, these choices matter! I'm saying it isn't like that. Again, I'm not looking so narrowly at THF, only you are.
    Who cares about FREEDOM? This is about how INTERESTING the gear is, how complex it is, how we don't automatically assume something is better because it has 5 more points of STR over another piece of gear, or how it has 15 more DEF and 15 more MDEF making it automatically better. This is about how INTERESTING FFXI gear was, how we could change it up to fit our need at the time, and do amazing fun things with the gear. A THF is still a THF no matter how they gear, but the difference between a THF in full evas gear, evas hybrid gear, and full DPS gear is like night and day. You go from doing say, 150 DPS and having 10% evade rate, to doing 60 DPS but having 60-80% evade rate. That is huge.

    This is not even mentioning the fact that the gear is DECADES more interesting, I don't know if this piece with 10 evasion and 3 agi is better than this piece with 8 evasion and 8 AGI until I put it into a spreadsheet, or number cruch, or test it. I can't just say "ok this piece has 3 more of X stat so it's better" like I can in FF14, because FF11 had tons of unique stats that all did different things in different ways.

    What am I trying to say? Gearing in FFXI was fun, gearing in FF14 is not fun or interesting in the slightest.


    I feel really bad I was asleep and couldn't be here to back Deadgye up, and have him get ganged up on by people.

    edit: Oh I forgot to add, in FFXI, when a melee got a relic, they completely changed the way they geared for both TPing and WSing. Why? The insane amount of acc on the weapon and how the weapon had different delay(usually), so you needed either more or less store TP for your X hit, etc. This was true for many weapons in FFXI, hell, you couldn't even compare weapons based on weapon damage alone, you needed to see it's delay, weapon damage, and overall stats/latent effects/hidden bonuses to know whether it was better or not with your current gear, or editing your gear completely to compliment your weapon.

    FF14? You'll see the weapon has 5 more DPS, or 5 more magic damage, know for a FACT it's an upgrade from that alone, and not change a single piece of your gear to compliment your new weapon upgrade. Simple, easy, BORING.

  16. #76
    It's sooo veiny
    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Boy, you sure made it sound fun.....

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    Gearing in FFXI Endgame was fun, gearing in FF14:ARR Beta Phase 3 is not fun or interesting in the slightest.
    Fixed.

  18. #78

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    What am I trying to say? Gearing in FFXI was fun, gearing in FF14 is not fun or interesting in the slightest.
    [sarcasm]
    When I first got the e-mail from SE to participate in tests, I was so excited. My first goal was to be the most awesomely geared player on my server. Alas, the gear was generic and only up to Lv35. This needs to be fixed if SE expects me to pay 15$/month.
    [/sarcasm]

    Who cares about FREEDOM? This is about how INTERESTING the gear is, how complex it is, how we don't automatically assume something is better because it has 5 more points of STR over another piece of gear, or how it has 15 more DEF and 15 more MDEF making it automatically better. This is about how INTERESTING FFXI gear was, how we could change it up to fit our need at the time, and do amazing fun things with the gear.
    People are still debating whether Byakko's Haidate were a great choice back at Lv75 cap, crunching numbers and all.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw View Post
    Fixed.
    Yes, this is true, as of right now, gearing in FF14 is the furthest thing from fun or interesting as you can possibly be. However, in FF14 1.0, everyone said "just wait, game will be different at release! It's only beta!". I do not believe it's "only beta", I am hoping it's "only beta", but they seem to want to copy WOW as much as they possibly can, and right now it has the exact same bland boring gear pattern as WOW. I hope I am completely wrong and they edit gear at retail, or even P4, but it's not looking like that'll happen at this point.

  20. #80
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    This thread is so bad the OF wouldn't even want it.

    BG2013.

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