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  1. #101

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Do you not understand the function of the word "or"?

    Also, to back up and prove you wrong anyway, gearing for MAB and elemental staves and shit allowed a ninja to spam nukes for damage instead of focusing on physical damage. But of course, you're going to say that's not relevant or find someway to dismiss it, right?
    Read the edit (or just the whole post again).

    Using their own skill in Ninjutsu? Yeah, that's covered by the primary role aspect, unless you think a ninja using ninjutsu is secondary. Unless these NINs were using elemental staves and MAB to cast elemental nukes effectively, the point has not changed. The only reason it worked is NIN's skill in what they do best. Like THFs evasion. You get it now?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    Read the edit (or just the whole post again).

    Using their own skill in Ninjutsu? Yeah, that's covered by the primary role aspect, unless you think a ninja using ninjutsu is secondary. Unless these NINs were using elemental staves and MAB to cast elemental nukes effectively, the point has not changed. The only reason it worked is NIN's skill in what they do best. Like THFs evasion. You get it now?
    Ah, yes, that was my slight. I indeed got that wrong.

    I agree with you that gear didn't let you do things outside of your jobs spectrum. Where we disagree I think is how much that specific spectrum was affected by gear (or should it be gear choices?).

  3. #103

    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I didn't realise that THF had a B class skill in Elemental Magic. My bad.

    As for the second part, I was going to specifical say MNK and counter-tanking as an example, how gear could've made it a real option or viable choice instead of pure damage or haste, but it wasn't. MNK has the capability to tank, but gear could never bridge that gap in an interesting way. Maybe that changed at 75 or after I quit.
    Monk was the main tank and DD for many events at 75(savlage, VNM's, a bunch of other stuff) where a monk could keep hate through pure damage because of counter, shadows, PDT gear(almost as much as ninja), MDT gear, and HUGE HP pool allowing them to survive devastating attacks.

    RDM also became the best maintank, DRK and SAM became amazing tanks and could tank pretty much everything in the game, while doing much more damage than paladin, making paladin completely useless and only good as a "safety" net or for "learning the encounter".

    How did this happen? Gear, learning how to use it better, and stronger gear being introduced that allowed you to keep ACC/attack higher.

    I didn't realise that THF had a B class skill in Elemental Magic. My bad.
    Any class could have B+ in all magics with /SCH.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye
    Stuff
    http://na.beta.finalfantasyxiv.com/l...acter/4677733/
    So glad you made it passed level 16 before you decided to interject your professional end game knowledge upon most of us.

    Every single melee DD is going to set:

    +20% dmg archer buff
    +15% crit pug buff
    +10% crit for 20 sec archer attack
    Bloodbath
    Random useless shit for next 1-6 slots
    Oh, they are? I didn't know that. I could have sworn that Bard couldn't use Internal Release or Bloodbath. I'm so glad that this isn't the case! /sarcasm

    When you specialize, you lose about half of the previous abilities that you wanted to use. Bard can't use Pugilist. Pugilist can't use Archer. Monk has to use skills from Gladiator and Lancer. Bard has Lancer and Conjurer. Gladiator and Warrior share a lot of skills.

    In addition, have any of you even considered that FFXIV is sitting pretty much at where FFXI was just before Rise of the Zilart? 50 cap end game where Lumber Jack, King Arthro, Simurgh, Roc, and so many others were the HNMs? I don't mean the "lol I can solo that" but the "We need at least 12 people who are level 50".

    I won't even say "This is beta, calm your tits". This is still EARLY GAME. It's young. There's not been an expansion. There's not even been a lot of end game yet. We have our three starting cities. We have the surrounding zones. We have our Gustaberg, Sarutabaruta, and Ronfaure. We don't even really have Tahrongi. La Theine MIA. Konschtat? AFK!

    In addition, do you REALLY think the early gamers of FFXI thought swapping gear mid combat was the way to go? Pff, not a chance.

  5. #105
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    Since all this disagreement is about XI, and XI alone, perhaps we should just agree to disagree?

    As for gear options in xiv, is there really a good reason against there being options?

    So glad you made it passed level 16 before you decided to interject your professional end game knowledge upon most of us.
    I was never talking about only end game. In fact, I specifically mentioned I was talking about the lower half. If I remember correctly I even asked for examples of gear options from the higher levels to help quell my worries.

  6. #106
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    With some intentional and others unintentional, I tanked many things on mnk at 75 lol

  7. #107

    Every single melee DD is going to set:

    +20% dmg archer buff (if possible)
    +15% crit pug buff(if possible)
    +10% crit for 20 sec archer attack(if possible)
    Bloodbath(if possible)
    Random useless shit for next 1-6 slots
    Oh, they are? I didn't know that. I could have sworn that Bard couldn't use Internal Release or Bloodbath. I'm so glad that this isn't the case! /sarcasm
    I think it's obvious not every single DPS can use all of those, but if they can, they will be using those.When you become a job you lose a lot of those, making the cross-class skill system even WORSE as you level up and become a job. That's my point.

    I also added "if possible" to my post, to clear things up, since my point still has the same meaning whether or not the class is able to equip it or not. My point actually has MORE meaning when you're restricted even further to have less choices, making the very few you have obvious, and everyone else will have them too.

  8. #108
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    Personally, if it means we get boring, vertical upgrade instead of XI's side-grade and a reliance on 3rd party tool to optimize it, I'm all for it.

    Sure the stats on the current and beta equipments are simple, who's to say they won't add more interesting elements to higher level gears that buff skills?

  9. #109

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    Since all this disagreement is about XI, and XI alone, perhaps we should just agree to disagree?

    As for gear options in xiv, is there really a good reason against there being options?


    I was never talking about only end game. In fact, I specifically mentioned I was talking about the lower half. If I remember correctly I even asked for examples of gear options from the higher levels to help quell my worries.
    Level50 gear has str, parry, dex, skill speed, determination, VIT, mnd, int from what I've seen.

    Sure the stats on the current and beta equipments are simple, who's to say they won't add more interesting elements to higher level gears that buff skills?
    People said 1.0 was "just beta", and everything would change. We got the beta, at retail. Voice your opinion on the official forums, we only have 50 more days until everything is "final", but I doubt it's actually 50, and more like 2 weeks. I don't think much, if anything at all, will change from P4 to Retail.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    I think it's obvious not every single DPS can use all of those, but if they can, they will be using those.When you become a job you lose a lot of those, making the cross-class skill system even WORSE as you level up and become a job. That's my point.
    Hardly worse. You lose a cross-class buffs, but gain amazing job depend skills.
    Fists of Fire + Dragon Kick is an almost +20% bonus to damage the entire fight
    Rain of Death is 10% increased damage for everyone and 10% damage done by target so your tank takes less damage. Also Increased Action Damage II means with RoD up, they also get a 20% constant bonus.That means MNK is now 30% damage increased.
    Disembowel from Lancer will reduce piercing resistance by 10% plus get the RoD buff, plus get whatever else they get (I didn't do a lot of LNC research at the moment, but based upon some overview, they'll be incredible damage if they understand how to move for optimal DPS)

    Stop thinking about how much you effect your DPS and start thinking about how an optimized group can steam roll content. When I played WoW, I loved considering the best group make ups to win content. Make it so that every one is assisting everyone is super exciting to me.

    Edit: This just makes me even more excited. I was getting bored of the TP>WS idea. This time, you have attacks on many different classes that are positional. Monk and Lancer for example have to constantly move from behind for back attacks to the side for Flank attacks to keep up bonuses and combos which means they'll be doing incredible DPS. It's not just sit and wait for TP. Okay, 100% ready to WS.

  11. #111
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    1.0 management vs. 2.0 management. If under Yoshida's management we end up with the same thing, well then too fucking bad.

  12. #112

    Quote Originally Posted by Okan View Post
    Hardly worse. You lose a cross-class buffs, but gain amazing job depend skills.
    Fists of Fire + Dragon Kick is an almost +20% bonus to damage the entire fight
    Rain of Death is 10% increased damage for everyone and 10% damage done by target so your tank takes less damage. Also Increased Action Damage II means with RoD up, they also get a 20% constant bonus.That means MNK is now 30% damage increased.
    Disembowel from Lancer will reduce piercing resistance by 10% plus get the RoD buff, plus get whatever else they get (I didn't do a lot of LNC research at the moment, but based upon some overview, they'll be incredible damage if they understand how to move for optimal DPS)

    Stop thinking about how much you effect your DPS and start thinking about how an optimized group can steam roll content. When I played WoW, I loved considering the best group make ups to win content. Make it so that every one is assisting everyone is super exciting to me.
    Pretty sure "worse" meant that the cross class system becomes even more inconsequential and ineffectual, not worse performance wise.

  13. #113

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    I think it's obvious not every single DPS can use all of those, but if they can, they will be using those.When you become a job you lose a lot of those, making the cross-class skill system even WORSE as you level up and become a job. That's my point.

    I also added "if possible" to my post, to clear things up, since my point still has the same meaning whether or not the class is able to equip it or not. My point actually has MORE meaning when you're restricted even further to have less choices, making the very few you have obvious, and everyone else will have them too.
    You keep assuming that you start the game with all classes leveled.

  14. #114
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evane View Post
    You keep assuming that you start the game with all classes leveled.
    I donno about you peasants but I will

  15. #115

    Quote Originally Posted by Okan View Post
    Hardly worse. You lose a cross-class buffs, but gain amazing job depend skills.
    Fists of Fire + Dragon Kick is an almost +20% bonus to damage the entire fight
    Rain of Death is 10% increased damage for everyone and 10% damage done by target so your tank takes less damage. Also Increased Action Damage II means with RoD up, they also get a 20% constant bonus.That means MNK is now 30% damage increased.
    Disembowel from Lancer will reduce piercing resistance by 10%

    Stop thinking about how much you effect your DPS and start thinking about how an optimized group can steam roll content. When I played WoW, I loved considering the best group make ups to win content. Make it so that every one is assisting everyone is super exciting to me.
    Ok none of this has a single thing to do with anything I just said.

    I am talking about the cross-class system, I'm talking about how few options you have, and how everyone will pick the same skills. Once you pick a job, as you have said, you get even less options. That makes the cross-class even WORSE. You have fewer choices to pick, and even a smaller limit on how many skills you can pick. For example, bard only gets cure, protect, raise, invigorate, Blood for Blood, keen flurry, feint, stoneskin. Every single bard is going to be picking invigorate, blood for blood, maybe cure(highly doubt it), maybe stoneskin, then the other choice is a toss up between feint that MIGHT be "ok", and a completely useless raise(can't be used in combat) or keen flurry(parry on an archer?).

    Usually will be:

    Blood for blood
    Invigorate
    Cure
    Stoneskin
    Other useless ability.

    JOBS can only pick 5 cross-skills, correct? There is no choice, that limits archer even further when it becomes a bard, and makes the cross-class system even worse. At least an archer had the choice of bloodbath, fracture, internal release, and a few others that aren't very useful. Taking your very limited amount of useful cross-class skills, and making it even more limited with even less useful ones. Very bad system in it's current implementation. Needs expanded on.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    Pretty sure "worse" meant that the cross class system becomes even more inconsequential and ineffectual, not worse performance wise.
    I understand. It's just maddening to me that people are ready to burn this game at the stake simply because it's not FFXI. The game is young and going through a rebuild almost from the ground up. As I said, we don't have our Jeuno city yet. We don't have a lot of zones. We don't have access to so much yet.

  17. #117

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocl View Post
    I donno about you peasants but I will
    I'm as well. But Yoshi mentioned on multiple posts and interviews that we should consider the fact that they designed this game with new MMO players in mind. Saying that those cross-class abilities are pointless to have and
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    might as well be default
    is stupid.

  18. #118

    Quote Originally Posted by Okan View Post
    I understand. It's just maddening to me that people are ready to burn this game at the stake simply because it's not FFXI. The game is young and going through a rebuild almost from the ground up. As I said, we don't have our Jeuno city yet. We don't have a lot of zones. We don't have access to so much yet.
    No one is burning it because it's not FFXI, we're burning it because we see things it's doing that are worse than FFXI. It is made by the same company, they should take the good things from FFXI when making their next MMO, delete all the bad things, and make a ton of new ideas. I do not want to play FFXI, but I do want to see some nice systems from FFXI re-designed, polished, and implemented with current gen technology/detail. I do not want things that are worse than a decade old game. Gear itemization and the cross-class system are two things worse than similar systems in FFXI.

  19. #119
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    Itemization: To shit is situational or to not shit is situational

    The skills available will increase as level cap goes up. Quit the short-sighted bullshit.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiyo View Post
    No one is burning it because it's not FFXI, we're burning it because we see things it's doing that are worse than FFXI. It is made by the same company, they should take the good things from FFXI when making their next MMO, delete all the bad things, and make a ton of new ideas. I do not want to play FFXI, but I do want to see some nice systems from FFXI re-designed, polished, and implemented with current gen technology/detail. I do not want things that are worse than a decade old game. Gear itemization and the cross-class system are two things worse than similar systems in FFXI.
    You could have fooled everyone here that you don't want to play FFXI because so far FFXI has done EVERYTHING better according to you. Also your definition of fun isn't the same as everyone elses. I like what FFXIV has done so far personally. And as I've said 4 times prior in this thread, THE GAME ISN'T FINISHED. I'm not talking about the "it's beta" either. We know almost nothing about end game. That's what I'm saying and that's what your basing all of your assumptions on.

    The cross class thing doesn't matter because we have the starting classes and like 1 job each. We don't even have Arcanist yet. Next is presumed to be Musketeer. We've yet to see a Thief or Ninja class or job. There's so much more work to do. Let them build it. You have to let the grape juice ferment properly to get good wine otherwise you get shitty purple drink.

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