McDonalds "Minimum wage isn't that bad, you just can't have heating, or gas, or insurance"

[mightyg]

Totally. How hard is it to understand that apathy does hurt people......all the fucking time. Vote.

[Cream Soda]

Spoiler: show

Now that I finally have time to write this, I'll get started. I believe that other people have already stated some of the things that I'm going to bring up, but that the subject has also veered off into a specific direction (about children), and I'm not here to talk about that.



You're already wrong, no matter the reasons you give, as sharing an unsubstantiated statement in a matter-of-fact fashion is enough to make other people think, "hey, they might be right." Our ability to convince others can, in fact, make us awfully dangerous. Our personal responsibility extends to the things that we say, not just the things that we do, which is why this reason:



Doesn't matter. It matters in other ways, but not here specifically. You are receiving a college education; you have lived a challenging, impoverished life. There are people who will see you, hear your story, and think, "man, he's been there, so he must know what he's talking about;" "you know what, if he can do it, anyone can do it;" and in both cases, that would be bullshit.

To elaborate further, as a college-educated individual, you understand the importance of research, fortifying statements, and generally proving you're able to accumulate knowledge, since that's a large part of what education is about. (We can also be educated emotionally, but that's not what we're discussing.) By saying this is my "logical observation," you're implying that logic is involved, but you admittedly are not involved in anything politically, do not read about anything large-scale involving economics, and in short, aren't saying anything "logical" at all—you're just sharing your "gut feeling," yet from a position that may be viewed as one of authority, and that's where the poisonous aspect comes from.

That's also why I've decided to say something, as I understand you're an intelligent man, and I've enjoyed a number of conversations I've had with you about everything from video games to life at large. As noted, I've specifically never brought this up because you've stated you're not into politics, but this is a highly political matter, and I believe you're wise enough to see what I'm saying once I've actually said it.



There are directly related things that you do care about, however, and your own hardships are not only a consequence of similar-minded people, but the disregard for society as a whole and the determination to put the individual on a pedestal. As for those similar-minded people mentioned, here's the consequences: thousands of them say, "I don't care about services for the poor, so I won't vote to have them improved;" meanwhile, Johnny McConservative considers them cannon fodder, so he votes to have said services taken away, largely uncontested.

This is why you can't get food stamps while receiving other forms of government aid that you need, why it's incredibly difficult for you to receive a college education when that's an investment your society should pay into (as it makes you a more valuable member with greater contributions), and overall, it's why all of your struggle amounts to a flaming pile of dog shit in the eyes of Mr. Job Creator. You lay down and die and say, "I'm poor, so I'm fucked unless I break my back and that's it," and they love you for every second of it. Then you point the finger at and make fun of other poor people, and in Mr. Creator's eyes, you've just elevated yourself to "Maybe I'll Let Him Be the Head of my Janitorial Staff" status. Congratulations?

In the end, you're still stuck in a dead end, shitty job for years (which you may be, as the college education you're pursuing is not a guarantee in any way, though according to the American Dream you're basically abiding by, it's supposed to be), but Richie Rich thinks you're good for knowing your place, so they'll happily keep you there, with an extra bone thrown in every now and then.

This is why it's important to give a shit. All of the aforementioned is wrong. It's fucked. It's real, but it only continues to be real because it's accepted. It's not the world standard, as plenty of other countries don't live this way.

Further, this returns directly to our individual responsibility to engender better mindsets among our fellows. Part of the reason I'm such an adamant humanist is because I dealt with awfully poor conditions and had many a friend living in terrible places while growing up. Before I even reached High School, I was bitter enough to be told that a bastard of a classmate had died in a terrible trainwreck and my response was, "Good." I had a friend suffer injuries in an ice pick fight, I had another skip town while his enemies rolled into our neighborhood and shoved guns in our faces, and I could go on and on about all of my sad, poor, woe is me childhood tales.

The reason I only bring these things up when they're relevant, though, is because I understand exactly the kind of societal rules you're choosing to abide by. If I mention those things, I'm obviously poor, stupid, dirty—less. I'll bet you that, right now, as someone read all that, they rolled their eyes. Who cares about suffering, right? To appease them, what if I pretended that everyone suffering those things was garbage, and that I could pick myself up by my bootstraps and be one of those miraculous, "rags to riches" stories? That's apparently what makes a worthwhile human being, right? Why don't I do that, then? The word "human" is a hint—I wouldn't be a "humanist" if I'd abide by something that ignorant.

I may have dedicated myself to reading, aspired to get out of my hometown or die trying, and dealt with emotional and financial opposition every step of the way, but I never spit on the people I knew. Some of them were illiterate. Some of them couldn't keep going to school. Hell, I had a waiver from the state to circumvent child labor laws before I was old enough to where they wouldn't apply to me, which made going to school hard, but at least I did get to keep going.



That's disgusting.

You've stated that hard work, in one respect, is what it takes to become a valuable and contributing member of society. What about the McDonald's worker who actually cares about people's orders, and wants to make them correctly? I'm not talking about the teenager getting their first gig, like someone else spat out in a knee-jerk response—I'm talking about someone who has shit for an education, who has responsibilities to keep themselves afloat nonetheless, and who still wants to be a damn good person. They'll smile at you when they give you your order, and for once, you don't have to go back and get it fixed. Do you not even think about that?

Does your thinking about your fellow human really end as soon as they've provided you with a service?

Do you not believe that someone who dedicates themselves to, learns, and fully understands and does their job well deserves to be incrementally rewarded in a way that displays, "you're providing a worthwhile service to humanity, and I believe you should at least be able to make ends meet as you make everyone's lives a little bit better?"

Now, you might be saying, "maybe for the good people, but not for the bad ones," and that doesn't apply here. That's what managers, write-ups, and the overall firing process is for. Yet, as a direct consequence of your attitude, you are punishing everyone—including the people who slog, day in, day out, at shit jobs that society still needs (even if said jobs don't ask for a college degree). You are looking down on them. That's terrible.



Ideally, you now understand why it is.

Admittedly, a lot of what you said has gone way over my head, but

That's disgusting.

You've stated that hard work, in one respect, is what it takes to become a valuable and contributing member of society.

Not my stance in the slightest.

Anything I've said was in the stance of self worth and applies to all things in general (Don't like that you can't jog a mile in 8 minutes? Train and get there. Don't like that you got a C on your exam? Study and get an A on the next one. Don't like having a dead end job? Yea it may be bullshit that the job is dead end to begin with, but take some measure to try and get a better one, move up in the company you are in, etc.)

It wasn't saying that people who work at McDonalds aren't valuable and don't contribute to society. Hell from a society standpoint, I contribute less than anyone else; have for the past 25 years, and will continue to do so until I at least have my degree. I get pell grant; work under the table; etc. Not only do I not contribute, I take away. However, I'm not satisfied with that, and I work each day to try and change that situation.

My point really was that if you're unhappy with where you're at, and do nothing about it, how could you expect shit to change?(which is why I can identify with someone who is at that dead end job, and still purusing an education, filling out job applications for a better job, picking up a trade, working super hard for that promotion within the current company etc. vs not being able to with "okay, I'm in a dead end job. I don't want to work hard because they don't pay me enough, but at the same time, I don't want to do as much as lift a finger to fight for better employment conditions, find a better job, etc." Those are the people I was referring to as "is my final stage in life" Not that them being in the situation in the first place is the right thing/how things should work.

So really, my example of "final stage in life" doesn't really apply to

What about the McDonald's worker who actually cares about people's orders, and wants to make them correctly? I

This person, because it seems like they are trying to move up in their company.

I'm referring to the person who is like
"I get minimum wage, so fuck you; I don't care if your sandwich is wrong. I'm not gonna work hard, but still want you to pay me more. I hate this job, but I don't feel like looking for another. Oh hey, I guess I want to have another kid or three while we're at it" Call it disgusting or whatever you may, but yes, this is the type of person I wouldn't care if they keeled over while I was typing this reply.

[Kohan]

Admittedly, a lot of what you said has gone way over my head, but

I don't buy that. You've said things like this in the past, but whenever you do, I think you're underselling yourself. I specifically kept it down-to-earth, and I know that someone as smart as you are wouldn't have a hard time digesting all of that. It always disappoints me when you act like you're not smart enough for something, and I know that's not true.

Maybe read it again, sometime. I'm not saying that to be shitty, either—I'm saying that because I know you can understand it.

You've stated that hard work, in one respect, is what it takes to become a valuable and contributing member of society.

Not my stance in the slightest.

C'mon, man. What's all of this?

Anything I've said was in the stance of self worth and applies to all things in general (Don't like that you can't jog a mile in 8 minutes? Train and get there. Don't like that you got a C on your exam? Study and get an A on the next one. Don't like having a dead end job? Yea it may be bullshit that the job is dead end to begin with, but take some measure to try and get a better one, move up in the company you are in, etc.)

It wasn't saying that people who work at McDonalds aren't valuable and don't contribute to society. Hell from a society standpoint, I contribute less than anyone else; have for the past 25 years, and will continue to do so until I at least have my degree. I get pell grant; work under the table; etc. Not only do I not contribute, I take away. However, I'm not satisfied with that, and I work each day to try and change that situation.

My point really was that if you're unhappy with where you're at, and do nothing about it, how could you expect shit to change?(which is why I can identify with someone who is at that dead end job, and still purusing an education, filling out job applications for a better job, picking up a trade, working super hard for that promotion within the current company etc. vs not being able to with "okay, I'm in a dead end job. I don't want to work hard because they don't pay me enough, but at the same time, I don't want to do as much as lift a finger to fight for better employment conditions, find a better job, etc." Those are the people I was referring to as "is my final stage in life" Not that them being in the situation in the first place is the right thing/how things should work.

You can summarize all of that, and much of what you said previously, with "those that work hard are worthwhile." It's completely your stance, and you've just reaffirmed it with your latest post.

Perhaps, though, you don't actually understand the depths of that implication, and that's why you said that isn't what you believe. It is, though—or to be more specific, it encompasses everything that I elaborated upon, and not just the things you've mentioned. Considering the kinds of things you've picked at, I think that this viewpoint has leaked out of this narrow definition of yours, and has started to affect much more of your judgment than you may realize.

So really, my example of "final stage in life" doesn't really apply to

What about the McDonald's worker who actually cares about people's orders, and wants to make them correctly?

This person, because it seems like they are trying to move up in their company.

This removes that statement from context, and in this case, it eliminates what it's all about. To put it back on track, that was in response to this specific part:

but let's say they put some kind of act in that would change the way these workers are paid, and I was like "meh". If registering to vote and my singular vote was the one deciding factor, I still wouldn't do it.

By thinking that way, you're saying that you don't give a shit about the person who's "trying to move up." That woman who broke into that meet-up and said challenging shit to the head of McDonald's? She's not stupid—she's got balls. I'll bet she knows how to make everything on their menu, and I'm sure she's handled everything from the best to the worst customers throughout her career.

Is there something wrong with a person dedicated to their craft being paid enough to live off of it? You think there's merit to that, right?

I'm referring to the person who is like
"I get minimum wage, so fuck you; I don't care if your sandwich is wrong. I'm not gonna work hard, but still want you to pay me more. I hate this job, but I don't feel like looking for another. Oh hey, I guess I want to have another kid or three while we're at it" Call it disgusting or whatever you may, but yes, this is the type of person I wouldn't care if they keeled over while I was typing this reply.

I covered that, too.

Now, you might be saying, "maybe for the good people, but not for the bad ones," and that doesn't apply here. That's what managers, write-ups, and the overall firing process is for. Yet, as a direct consequence of your attitude, you are punishing everyone—including the people who slog, day in, day out, at shit jobs that society still needs (even if said jobs don't ask for a college degree). You are looking down on them.

That's why it's bad to espouse that this sort of thing doesn't matter, because it absolutely does. There are already elements in place to deal with the sort of dickishness you're talking about. Let them do what they're supposed to. Don't drag down every good person working in the cogs of society by labeling them guilty by association.

[Cream Soda]

This removes that statement from context, and in this case, it eliminates what it's all about. To put it back on track, that was in response to this specific part:

Quote Originally Posted by Cream Soda
but let's say they put some kind of act in that would change the way these workers are paid, and I was like "meh". If registering to vote and my singular vote was the one deciding factor, I still wouldn't do it.
By thinking that way, you're saying that you don't give a shit about the person who's "trying to move up." That woman who broke into that meet-up and said challenging shit to the head of McDonald's? She's not stupid—she's got balls. I'll bet she knows how to make everything on their menu, and I'm sure she's handled everything from the best to the worst customers throughout her career.

That was a statement towards my lack of give a fuck about politics when it comes down to it. I may have my opinions here or there, but I have no interest in voting, reading in depth on each issue, etc. The 2 party system etc. I think politics are all a load of bull shit. Could have replaced that worker w/ anything else rly; I just used that example to be in context with the thread. It could have been legal weed, something to do with the death penalty etc.

[Cantih]

That was a statement towards my lack of give a fuck about politics when it comes down to it. I may have my opinions here or there, but I have no interest in voting, reading in depth on each issue, etc. The 2 party system etc. I think politics are all a load of bull shit. Could have replaced that worker w/ anything else rly; I just used that example to be in context with the thread. It could have been legal weed, something to do with the death penalty etc.

Something to understand, to those of us that do vote, your stance and justification is essentially the political version of being this kind of person.

I'm referring to the person who is like
"I get minimum wage, so fuck you; I don't care if your sandwich is wrong. I'm not gonna work hard, but still want you to pay me more. I hate this job, but I don't feel like looking for another. Oh hey, I guess I want to have another kid or three while we're at it"

And when you espouse political apathy, you're swaying and creating more people like it.

[Kohan]

That was a statement towards my lack of give a fuck about politics when it comes down to it. I may have my opinions here or there, but I have no interest in voting, reading in depth on each issue, etc. The 2 party system etc. I think politics are all a load of bull shit. Could have replaced that worker w/ anything else rly; I just used that example to be in context with the thread. It could have been legal weed, something to do with the death penalty etc.

The opinion you have is a political one, though, and is related to an important current issue. By focusing strictly on voting, however, we're getting carried away from the other points in my response: the overall importance of a living wage, and why it's wise to support it, especially if you're living near or below the poverty line. Naturally, everyone should, but those most affected would enjoy the most apparent benefits. The rest of society, meanwhile, would benefit economically from blue collar workers having more disposable income, and an elevated happiness level.

That directly addresses this, which wasn't about voting:

If you're at McDonalds, simply complaining about what you're being paid, but making no effort to try and get a better job, sorry, 0 fucks

That's the bad outlook to have. This negatively affects everyone, good and bad workers alike, not to mention society at large.

Let's get simpler.

Do you agree—presuming that the administrative system functions, and bad employees are systematically removed from the workforce—that everyone who is working should receive enough funds to live reasonably?

[Cream Soda]

Something to understand, to those of us that do vote, your stance and justification is essentially the political version of being this kind of person.



And when you espouse political apathy, you're swaying and creating more people like it.

Not really seeing the connection; because that type of person in the quote is complaining about shit and asking for more. When it comes to politics, I may not vote, but I don't sit there and talk shit about Obama all day either. I think they're all shit. Obama, Romney, Bush, Kerry etc.

Perhaps I'd be interested if not for the 2 party system, but as it is now.
>Here's shit on a paper plate.
>Here's shit on a Styrofoam plate.
pick one


blah blah independents etc. They've never stood a chance, and if they do one day, I doubt it'll be during my life time.

[Cream Soda]

Do you agree—presuming that the administrative system functions, and bad employees are systematically removed from the workforce—that everyone who is working should receive enough funds to live reasonably?

Assuming bad employees are given the axe until they can step their shit up, sure do.

My definition of living reasonably may be different than someone else's though. For me, I think minimum wage should be able to reasonably support one person's basic needs at full time hours. A place to live (cheap place to live), food, utilities (power water gas), etc. Then if you are living with someone else (whether it be a roommate, gf, wife, etc.) money will be saved by pooling together for an apartment (2 bedroom apartment isn't twice the amount as a studio; at least not here, and definitely not anywhere near double a single bedroom apartment), and the saved money can be allocated towards other things, (I'd recommend savings, but luxuries if you like to go out, use this saved money here)

I don't think minimum wage should be able to support a family of three that has a stay at home mother. She can either work, or you can get a better job to support a lifestyle where she can stay home all day. I don't think MINIMUM wage should support that.

but again, if they did raise it to where that was the case, I wouldn't care, so in the end my wall of text makes no difference.
Which is what I meant by the whole "logic" thing maybe I used the wrong word. If minimum wage was increased to a wage that could support that type of life style, I wouldn't care. I simply don't agree with it though
many issues where I'll "take a stance" for the sake of "Yea that sounds reasonable/right", but still just plain give no fucks if that's what actually takes course or not.

To give a few examples;
I think opposing gay marriage is silly. Should be able to do it in all 50 states
I think people should be able to smoke as much weed as they want.
I think more states should adopt capital punishment
[insert a bunch of other shit here]

but if they all went to ballot and the opposing opinion won, it honestly wouldn't rub me either way.

[notorious bum]

Politics will be all in your shit whether you care about them or not. I come from a similar slumdog grind as CS in my life(with the privilege of having a solid immediate fam, whom we've all struggled together, etc). With that said, I grew up all the way into my late teens with the same mindset of not giving a single fuck about politics, history, etc. Mostly just cared about videogames and TV shit. The usual.

What made me transition into being aware and more empathetic is very simple and took no effort: randomly tuning into WMNF radio and accidentally listening to their newshour/Democracy Now. Born and raised in this shithole of Tampa Bay, I was surprised, we actually are lucky to have a pretty damn good community radio(with alot of good people involved). I started listening to that shit as I spent 6hrs+ a day on buses and walking my skinny ass like I was training for some speed-walking championship. You

Once you get your ass away from propaganda journalism and fluff news, you WILL start to care more and want to meet up with other real cats and like-minded people. They don't exist in the typical venues: people like us, who aren't some superficial assholes, living life like they're in a fucking music video; not in the malls, concerts(for the most part), or your everyday travels. Study groups maybe, but it's really hit-or-miss if you search at college campuses for people who aren't arrogant dicks, interested in real life probs.

Anyway, just my 2cents, sorry for getting preachy.

[Kohan]

Assuming bad employees are given the axe until they can step their shit up, sure do.

My definition of living reasonably may be different than someone else's though. For me, I think minimum wage should be able to reasonably support one person's basic needs at full time hours. A place to live (cheap place to live), food, utilities (power water gas), etc. Then if you are living with someone else (whether it be a roommate, gf, wife, etc.) money will be saved by pooling together for an apartment (2 bedroom apartment isn't twice the amount as a studio; at least not here, and definitely not anywhere near double a single bedroom apartment), and the saved money can be allocated towards other things, (I'd recommend savings, but luxuries if you like to go out, use this saved money here)

You understand that a minimum wage job, when worked full time, may only earn someone about $15,000 in one year, correct?

Likewise, you know that a large amount of minimum wage workers do not even get full time work, right?

Considering the aforementioned, the average version of that person—even one who works at McDonald's for, say, ten years, and then makes only a dollar or two more an hour—cannot rise above the poverty level. They can be the best, most spirited worker every day they put on that uniform and clock in for their shift, and they cannot meet their own basic needs. You've said that they deserve respect, but is this really what respect is—letting them receive next to nothing for the good work they do?

Do you see why that mindset, therefore, leads to a dysfunctional society, and why it is bad not only for them, but for humanity overall—economically, and emotionally?

I don't think minimum wage should be able to support a family of three that has a stay at home mother. She can either work, or you can get a better job to support a lifestyle where she can stay home all day. I don't think MINIMUM wage should support that.

Why not? Before you answer, think this over:

About four million people or more (considering that federal figures do not include those they can't account for, e.g., those paid under the table) are presently paid minimum wage.

Do you really believe that those four million people can leave their jobs, that the resultant vacancies will not stop society from functioning, and that they can all do something else?

Surely, your answer is "no," as you know that's not the case. Why, though, must they be expected to stop working at such a job that they are skilled at, get a skill in something else, and then do that instead? Why is their skill set not good enough? They've worked hard. They're good at what they do. How does that not justify being paid enough to cover all of one's basic needs?

but again, if they did raise it to where that was the case, I wouldn't care, so in the end my wall of text makes no difference.
Which is what I meant by the whole "logic" thing maybe I used the wrong word. If minimum wage was increased to a wage that could support that type of life style, I wouldn't care. I simply don't agree with it though
many issues where I'll "take a stance" for the sake of "Yea that sounds reasonable/right", but still just plain give no fucks if that's what actually takes course or not.

I don't believe that you have a solid reason for disagreeing with it. I also don't believe it's fair for you to have such a firm opinion on something you admittedly don't want to read about, especially when it affects far more people than those in your own circle.

[Cream Soda]

You understand that a minimum wage job, when worked full time, may only earn someone about $15,000 in one year, correct?

Likewise, you know that a large amount of minimum wage workers do not even get full time work, right?

Considering the aforementioned, the average version of that person—even one who works at McDonald's for, say, ten years, and then makes only a dollar or two more an hour—cannot rise above the poverty level. They can be the best, most spirited worker every day they put on that uniform and clock in for their shift, and they cannot meet their own basic needs. You've said that they deserve respect, but is this really what respect is—letting them receive next to nothing for the good work they do?

Do you see why that mindset, therefore, leads to a dysfunctional society, and why it is bad not only for them, but for humanity overall—economically, and emotionally?

Which is why I agree that it should be raised to the level I described, being able to support that one person and his/her basic needs. I'm definitely not saying it shouldn't be raised at all.

Why not? Before you answer, think this over:

About four million people or more (considering that federal figures do not include those they can't account for, e.g., those paid under the table) are presently paid minimum wage.

Do you really believe that those four million people can leave their jobs, that the resultant vacancies will not stop society from functioning, and that they can all do something else?

Surely, your answer is "no," as you know that's not the case. Why, though, must they be expected to stop working at such a job that they are skilled at, get a skill in something else, and then do that instead? Why is their skill set not good enough? They've worked hard. They're good at what they do. How does that not justify being paid enough to cover all of one's basic needs?

I have two different approaches for this question

1) I don't believe in stay at home mom/dad to begin with. I consider that a true luxury. If you can afford to do it, well I guess I can't say shit about it, but no I care for raising a minimum value high enough to support 4 million+ more instances of something I already disagree with to begin with. I don't consider having a stay at home wife a basic need. I'm fine with the idea of your wage covering basic needs. I guess we just have different views on what is a basic need.

2) eh, now that I think about it; not going to bother going there. That's an entirely different discussion all together.

I don't believe that you have a solid reason for disagreeing with it. I also don't believe it's fair for you to have such a firm opinion on something you admittedly don't want to read about, especially when it affects far more people than those in your own circle.

Wouldn't really call it a firm stance when considering I don't care enough to vote/encourage other people to vote on it/sway someone else's opinion on it, etc.

For example I know you're a supporter of legalizing weed. Let's say I opposed that for the sake of this argument. Even if I opposed it, I wouldn't care if you were for it or how you were voting on it. Wouldn't want you to change your stance on it just because I didn't agree with it.

Someone "firm" in their stances would be the person getting petitions signed or actually going out of their way to influence the outcome. Maybe what I say will influence someone, maybe not; but that is not my goal and I don't care whether or not they're influenced. I'm not trying to change anyone or influence them in any way. If it happens unintentionally, oh well.

[Kohan]

(As a quick note, I agree that having a stay-at-home parent is a luxury; earlier, I believe you indicated that children in general were a luxury, which I don't agree with. I think it would detract from our current discussion to go further off on this tangent, though.)

Which is why I agree that it should be raised to the level I described, being able to support that one person and his/her basic needs. I'm definitely not saying it shouldn't be raised at all.

That's good. Knowing that you would support raising minimum wage to living wage levels is heartening.

Since you do, I hope you'll reconsider some of your statements, such as the one I re-quoted recently—namely, the quote about how you don't give any fucks. I believe this demonstrates that you do. You elaborated to state that the only employee you don't care about is the bad one, but in a properly working administrative system, that problem would be resolved by their being fired, not by the wage being kept too low for everyone.

This brings us all the way back to one of the main subjects of my largest response, that being personal responsibility. It's good to give a shit, even if you don't vote. It's good to have your facts straight, even if you hate the two party system. We're all a part of this society, whether we're directly involved in political matters or not, and facts are facts, whether you consider yourself blue, red, green, or nothing at all. When you're sharing an opinion about a hugely important issue, you are potentially making an impact. You can sway others' opinions even if you've never entered a ballot box. That's why it's important to care, at least a bit. Society benefits from that.

[Cream Soda]

It's good to give a shit, even if you don't vote.

I agree 100%; again from a "logical" standpoint. It sounds like it makes the most sense.

That being said, what I think and how I feel are two different things. Would it be better off if I gave a shit? Of course. However, I simply don't feel that way. I can't simply say "okay I'm gonna change the way I feel" and that's the end of it. Don't know why, but I don't. That's just how it is.

[Kohan]

That being said, what I think and how I feel are two different things. Would it be better off if I gave a shit? Of course. However, I simply don't feel that way. I can't simply say "okay I'm gonna change the way I feel" and that's the end of it. Don't know why, but I don't. That's just how it is.

Well, no one can. Our ambitions aren't managed by light switches that we can turn on or off. Since you've worked for years on improving yourself physically, you know that.

Nonetheless, I think that there is a simplistic means of governing yourself in a way that's not potentially harmful to society. If you're talking on a subject that potentially affects large amounts of people, but you admittedly aren't educated on it, there's no real reason to share an opinion, is there? If you don't care about it, go all the way—don't engage it at all. I'm not being sarcastic with that statement, either. You know what they say—ignorance is bliss—and there are plenty of times when I've wished I didn't care as much as I do, simply so I wouldn't have to deal with knowing all the shit that I know.

[hey]

that everyone who is working should receive enough funds to live reasonably?

For some definition of reasonably, i'd rather get rid of the qualifiers. Everyone should be able to afford to live reasonably.

[Kohan]

For some definition of reasonably, i'd rather get rid of the qualifiers. Everyone should be able to afford to live reasonably.

Are you implying that people who do not work should be paid a living wage? I honestly don't have any idea what you mean, otherwise.

[Lordender]

People are ignoring also that you pay for children for 18 years.

What happens when you could afford them when they were born, then the economy crashes and you lose your job, now you are stuck in an over saturated market unable to get a job that pays the relative same amount you had before?

You know, exactly what fucking happened in the US.

The big crash, the one that will deliver the knockout punch is at best, 3 maybe 4 decades off if things continue like it is. Men are disappearing from colleges, the workforce and they've imposed a marriage strike(You can read Dr.Helen Smiths book called "Men on Strike" if you want to know more.) You have many men who are now refusing to marry, refusing to work long hours and living simple. This will effectively begin to starve the system in regards to tax dollars governments depend on. In Japan, 60% of the Japanese men from 18-40 identify as an "Herbivore male" this is quietly going to bankrupt that country as the government scrambles to figure out why these men stopped reproducing, stopping being worker tax dollar drones for the government.

Men will always pay more taxes than women, when men opt out in large enough numbers like they're doing now, game over. The government can increase taxes, they can try to force men to pay to upkeep the system. Men will just go into exile to a more favorable place as the shit starts hitting the fan.

The birthrates have fallen so hard in places like Japan, I read more adult diapers were sold than childrens last year. Unsustainable birthrates will eventually collapse the workforce. Last I looked in the USA, marriage rates dropped 66% since 1950. In South Korea, things have become so bad that some companies have lifted bans on work romantic relationships to encourage people to start dating.

I don't see anything that is going to prohibit men from opting out. Japan is about a decade ahead of the curve so we'll see the drama there first. Men opting out has spread in many countries, especially the mechanized places.

People won't see it coming because of normalcy bias. What I say might sound crazy or conspiratorial but it is indeed happening quietly. Look at how many "Where have all the good men gone?" articles, news stories in various countries popping up.

So why did I mention "Marriage Strike?" Government profits off divorce, when a divorce happens, someone has to go live somewhere else, perhaps they need to buy a new car and there is wealth transfer with alimony and childsupport. Women receive this support in the majority of the cases and we all know women love to spend money which generates sales tax for the state.

TLDR: Shits going to crash and crash hard, eventually. Most of us will probably be dead and gone by the time it does.

[Mazmaz]

WTF

[Blubbartron]

Dude, Lordender, you need to learn some Occam's Razor. Over half the nonsense you spouted (almost all of the "males are being targeted" stuff) is irrelevant. The source of the crash will be a lack of procreation. The end. People don't need to get married to have kids, and it's not about forcing men to "pay to upkeep the system." If you don't reproduce at the replacement rate, shit will go downhill until you stabilize.

Wrapping it into the larger topic at hand - you know what will cause people to have kids? Financial stability. People need jobs that don't rape their entire lives (like my job, which often demands 60-80 hour work weeks), and still pay generously. Stability and security will give people the desire and opportunity to settle down and have families.

[Kohan]

The big crash, the one that will deliver the knockout punch is at best, 3 maybe 4 decades off if things continue like it is. Men are disappearing from colleges, the workforce and they've imposed a marriage strike(You can read Dr.Helen Smiths book called "Men on Strike" if you want to know more.) You have many men who are now refusing to marry, refusing to work long hours and living simple. This will effectively begin to starve the system in regards to tax dollars governments depend on. In Japan, 60% of the Japanese men from 18-40 identify as an "Herbivore male" this is quietly going to bankrupt that country as the government scrambles to figure out why these men stopped reproducing, stopping being worker tax dollar drones for the government.

Men will always pay more taxes than women, when men opt out in large enough numbers like they're doing now, game over. The government can increase taxes, they can try to force men to pay to upkeep the system. Men will just go into exile to a more favorable place as the shit starts hitting the fan.

The birthrates have fallen so hard in places like Japan, I read more adult diapers were sold than childrens last year. Unsustainable birthrates will eventually collapse the workforce. Last I looked in the USA, marriage rates dropped 66% since 1950. In South Korea, things have become so bad that some companies have lifted bans on work romantic relationships to encourage people to start dating.

I don't see anything that is going to prohibit men from opting out. Japan is about a decade ahead of the curve so we'll see the drama there first. Men opting out has spread in many countries, especially the mechanized places.

People won't see it coming because of normalcy bias. What I say might sound crazy or conspiratorial but it is indeed happening quietly. Look at how many "Where have all the good men gone?" articles, news stories in various countries popping up.

So why did I mention "Marriage Strike?" Government profits off divorce, when a divorce happens, someone has to go live somewhere else, perhaps they need to buy a new car and there is wealth transfer with alimony and childsupport. Women receive this support in the majority of the cases and we all know women love to spend money which generates sales tax for the state.

TLDR: Shits going to crash and crash hard, eventually. Most of us will probably be dead and gone by the time it does.

In more important matters, after I wrote that large post in this thread yesterday, I clocked out from work, and took my lunch break. After I hooked up my MP3 player and started driving, this is what came on first:

Spoiler: show

Immediately followed by:



(Bonus: read the second-to-last YouTube comment for extra laughs.)