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Thread: The WoW Factor     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    Depth doesn't come from having to choose from a million different gear combination or needing weeks to accomplish something simple. You look forward to the content, challenge and the events, not being a kleptomaniac and OCD specialist.
    Personally I think depth comes from a balance of content, events, fights as well as character customization and gear. I was just using XI as am example of depth. I don't really want the exact same thing to appear in ARR but I hope that it finds its own depth. That's all I'm saying.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxv View Post
    Personally I think depth comes from a balance of content, events, fights as well as character customization and gear. I was just using XI as am example of depth. I don't really want the exact same thing to appear in ARR but I hope that it finds its own depth. That's all I'm saying.

    yah.. some people don't understand that asking for gear to not be one dimensional is not the same as asking for Ground Kings back.

    Theres a thread dedicated to it here.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    And yet it may have been one of the best things to come out of XI besides the ability to play all classes on a single character. The ability to seek out little niche pieces from all over the world to optimize yourself spread people out and kept events around well past their prime. With each piece came the ability to perform better at whatever it was you were aiming for which ultimately keeps you playing longer, feeds the P2P model and keeps the game from sliding into F2P desperation.

    As it stands XIV: ARR is selling itself completely on a FF coat of paint over the same tired MMO model that has led to numerous busts over the years. SE roughly has a year to cobble a base together before people move onto the next carnival attraction. The game will never be as hardcore as XI but their previous game did get some things right that should be carried over to this title. Trying to imitate WoW isn't innovating or giving people a reason to try this game over every Korean grinder that gets shit on a yearly basis. What exactly makes FFXIV worth getting over any other MMO on the market?

    I mean I know why for myself. I'm curious to see what SE does with their reboot and I'm partial to the nostalgia of seeing HD FFXI models and races in a new game. But for someone who has no connection to FFXI or FF in general what makes this game stand out?

    SE could have done much more to make horizontal progression work but ultimately Tanaka's obsession with timesinks and dismissal of the base resulted in hardcore grinding that scared many off XI.
    Gear swapping best thing in FFXI? It practically broke the game, and people complain about breaking immersion in ARR. Once again no other mmo does this. The fact people have to use automation from something outside the game, spellcast, points out that it is not designed as intended.

    The best thing in XI is shear amount of content available. Sadly this is because the game is 11 years old. MMOs fail in the first year cause there isn't a substantial amount of end game content. Why do you think games like Everquest and of course WoW are still around?

    As long as they are able to keep a consistent pace of content they will be in a good place. Though in all honesty is going to be very hard. Also the push into the console market is a benefit, most people forget that FFXI started as a console game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intervention View Post
    Gear swapping best thing in FFXI? It practically broke the game, and people complain about breaking immersion in ARR. Once again no other mmo does this. The fact people have to use automation from something outside the game, spellcast, points out that it is not designed as intended.

    The best thing in XI is shear amount of content available. Sadly this is because the game is 11 years old. MMOs fail in the first year cause there isn't a substantial amount of end game content. Why do you think games like Everquest and of course WoW are still around?

    As long as they are able to keep a consistent pace of content they will be in a good place. Though in all honesty is going to be very hard. Also the push into the console market is a benefit, most people forget that FFXI started as a console game.
    The sheer amount of content that was available and still doable years after the fact was because of the gear-swapping mechanic. The idea of changing your clothes 3 or 4 times during a fight is silly but it allowed for a ton of customization and every aspect and ability of your job always had someway to work and improve it. There was almost always something you could use from any event in the game and it was pretty damned hard to finally rest on your laurels and say "well, my PLD is done now."

  5. #85
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    My main job from day two of the ps2 release until after abyssea was rdm; the second being brd. Anyone that thinks gear swapping was great can suck my joytoy until they bleed to death. If I can even find it under the pile of gear.

    I mean seriously that was one of the worst ideas they had, not the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    My main job from day two of the ps2 release until after abyssea was rdm; the second being brd. Anyone that thinks gear swapping was great can suck my joytoy until they bleed to death. If I can even find it under the pile of gear.

    I mean seriously that was one of the worst ideas they had, not the best.
    Would it have been as bad if they had an armory type system where you equipped your sets once and that was that. Didn't have to lug 20 instruments around and changing jobs wasn't a 45 minute ordeal. To me the shitty party was carrying and keeping track of all the stuff, not the actual swapping.

  7. #87
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Yes because you forgot the part where we needed a 3rd party program that required a masters in math to program to switch out gear for every little damn thing you did.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Yes because you forgot the part where we needed a 3rd party program that required a masters in math to program to switch out gear for every little damn thing you did.
    I never got Spellcast to work right either. I just used long-ass text macros. I think on my brd at one point I had a 40-line macro. I dont think it would have been as bad if it was built into the game though, armory style.
    Anyways, there isn't going to be gear swapping in ARR and I'm not saying there should be. Just a reason to be involved in the world enough to spend $12 a month on it and not to just waltz around town with a new vanity pet that doesn't do anything. Maybe that's enough, after all the real main goal of XI was just to get shinies to walk around in Whitegate in front of the filthy peasants.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxv View Post
    $12 a month to just waltz around town with a new vanity pet that doesn't do anything.
    Welcome to next gen MMOs >_>. Except most of those Vanity pets require a credit card XD

  10. #90
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    Welcome to next gen MMOs >_>
    p. sure that was old gen mmos, too.

    [edit] except now with a pet

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    p. sure that was old gen mmos, too.

    [edit] except now with a pet
    In the old days we got armor, but the principle is essentially the same. :D Difference is the armor did something though.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intervention View Post
    Gear swapping best thing in FFXI? It practically broke the game, and people complain about breaking immersion in ARR. Once again no other mmo does this. The fact people have to use automation from something outside the game, spellcast, points out that it is not designed as intended.
    Break the game how? Claiming that gearswapping breaks immersion is like complaining that repeating dungeons for loot breaks immersion because canonically the dungeon boss has been killed already. It's nitpicking to the umpteenth degree.

    Who cares what other MMOs do? If you have a good idea, reuse it. The keeping up with the Jones' mentality is what has led to a graveyard of wannabe-WoWs and popup games that end up in the shitbin within a year because they do nothing different and we've seen it all before. If you don't think that eventually ARR will be awash in optimization tools like Spellcast then best of luck to you. Gearswapping as a concept was sound and unique, something ARR is sorely lacking.

    The best thing in XI is shear amount of content available. Sadly this is because the game is 11 years old. MMOs fail in the first year cause there isn't a substantial amount of end game content. Why do you think games like Everquest and of course WoW are still around?
    The sheer amount of content was due to horizontal upgrades and gearswaps that kept people busy. Working on getting some obscure as balls piece for a Tiamat fight kept people playing. Camping Leaping Boots to have a leg up during lowbie EXP kept people playing. Fun little things like that. Once you know that X is a clear upgrade over Y and there is no room for imagination, you wind up with a ladder that people eventually just quit climbing after a while.

    EQ is still around because it had first mover advantage and still has its holdouts who nostalgia-gasm over the game the same way old XIers do. WoW is still around because it was the paradigm shift in the MMO market. People forget newer MMOs because they're all the same gelatinous blob of fetchquests, gearladders, blues, greens and battlegrounds.

    As long as they are able to keep a consistent pace of content they will be in a good place. Though in all honesty is going to be very hard. Also the push into the console market is a benefit, most people forget that FFXI started as a console game.
    Console sales and the JP base are two advantages SE has but the game has big shoes to fill coming off 1.0s spectacular fail and a market that is unforgiving to WoW-wannabes. XI was full of horrible decisions and deer in the headlights devs but it also had successful and unique properties that would be foolish to drop.

  13. #93
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Wait wait wait. EQ and WoW don't gearswap yet have endgame content, but the only reason FFXI had endgame content is because of gearswapping....really? That makes zero sense.


    Also, ronin you might want to hop over to curse.com and find all these spellcast addons other mmos must be using (hint: you don't need it if you don't gearswap).

    Will gear optimization happen in 14? Of course, every mmo has it. Will spellcast be needed? Absolutely not, and other mmos are proof of that.


    [edit] serious question, do you know what EQ endgame is?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    Wait wait wait. EQ and WoW don't gearswap yet have endgame content, but the only reason FFXI had endgame content is because of gearswapping....really? That makes zero sense.


    Also, ronin you might want to hop over to curse.com and find all these spellcast addons other mmos must be using (hint: you don't need it if you don't gearswap).

    Will gear optimization happen in 14? Of course, every mmo has it. Will spellcast be needed? Absolutely not, and other mmos are proof of that.


    [edit] serious question, do you know what EQ endgame is?
    I said FFXI's unique endgame mechanic was gearswapping. You know, that shit SE has been ramming down our throats since Hecatomb Harness and Kirin's Osode. It's what made FFXI stand out from the pack and allowed them to create a ton of events with situational as all hell gear that people chased after without obsoleting too much.

    Dune Boots
    Dynamis
    Asklepios
    Hrotti
    Salvage

    All of it revolved around gearswaps.

    WoW and its clones all work on the vertical system and where horizontal leaves players feeling that gear isn't going anywhere (10year Ebody syndrome), vertical makes your shit useful for about a month or two until the new raid comes out and makes your gear garbage thus the impetus to do new things. It's also been done so many times in other MMOs and my point was that XI had something unique.

    Everyone talks about EQ because it laid the groundwork for games like XI and WoW. It wasn't called NeverRest for no reason.

  15. #95
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    I said FFXI's unique endgame mechanic was gearswapping.
    That doesn't mean we wouldn't have had the amount of endgame we got. And it doesn't make it a good idea.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    That doesn't mean we wouldn't have had the amount of endgame we got. And it doesn't make it a good idea.
    Without gearswapping, half the gear SE released in all that content from '04 on would have been completely nonsensical. The game was built with macros and swaps in mind and everything from there followed that idea. You don't create pieces like Walahra Turban with solely TP stats and a Wyvern Helm with WS stats without assuming that the decent player will swap between the two in order to optimize damage.

    It's a matter of developer vision and where horizontal has issues (look at GW2s crisis for a recent example), vertical is also bogged down with problems.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    Break the game how? Claiming that gearswapping breaks immersion is like complaining that repeating dungeons for loot breaks immersion because canonically the dungeon boss has been killed already. It's nitpicking to the umpteenth degree.
    Break the game cause it wasn't intially designed to do so, your character blinks in and out of existence when you do it. You are right that it is picky, I was pointing out there were people complaining about freaking grass and jumping and how it ruined immersion. Going from wearing a set of chainmail to a full set a plate within in seconds, thats not breaking immmersion? As for doing dungeons over and over, well how about doing BCNMs? How about killing the Kirin hundreds of times to get your osede?

    You are being as picky as I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    If you have a good idea, reuse it.
    Its a good idea to follow the market, so they are reusing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    XI was full of horrible decisions and deer in the headlights devs but it also had successful and unique properties that would be foolish to drop.
    They did try to do that, it was 1.0.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    The game was built with macros and swaps in mind and everything from there followed that idea.
    I honestly don't think Square-Enix realized that's how it was played until 3/4 through its lifespan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intervention View Post
    Break the game cause it wasn't intially designed to do so, your character blinks in and out of existence when you do it. You are right that it is picky, I was pointing out there were people complaining about freaking grass and jumping and how it ruined immersion. Going from wearing a set of chainmail to a full set a plate within in seconds, thats not breaking immmersion? As for doing dungeons over and over, well how about doing BCNMs? How about killing the Kirin hundreds of times to get your osede?
    Gearswapping was always intended. Players just took it to it's natural extreme and began to optimize sets for everything. SE eventually embraced this type of play and started churning out very situational gear that eventually created inventory issues. It doesn't change the fact that initially they expected people to gearswap and the Hecatomb Harness set is a great example of early "you only WS in this" gear and it's old as dirt.

    I said that nitpicking over gearswapping was nonsense. I suppose we should throw in hunger and thirst meters if we're gonna embrace realism? I didn't think so. I don't give a shit if we repeat a raid 20x to get loot because I know where to suspend lore and to accept a raid as a raid. There is a time and place for everything and the immersion card is used in such an arbitrary manner that we might as well just say "I don't like gearswapping" rather than trying to hand me the realism bullshit.

    Its a good idea to follow the market, so they are reusing it.
    Blindly following the market is how many MMOs have ended up dashed against the rocks. There are many good things that WoW has trailblazed but that doesn't mean you throw away what you've learned from your own previous title. Attempt to incorporate these things to make your title unique and to Yoshidas credit he has incorporated some things. ARR should be aspiring to surpass WoW, not live in its shadow.

    They did try to do that, it was 1.0.
    1.0 was just shit. Don't associate it with elements of XI that were sound. No one is asking for a remake of XI or anything of the sort. There were too many things wrong with 1.0 to count.

  20. #100
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    I honestly don't think Square-Enix realized that's how it was played until 3/4 through its lifespan.
    probably could be said for most things in FFXI lmao

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