The WoW Factor

[Elcura]

Are people going to reveal their hoarding illness with FFXI gear swapping anecdotes?

Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings. Even those were probably released far apart from each other.

[Lucavi]

I'm honestly surprised any BG regular responded to this reddit OP.

[Deuce]

Are people going to reveal their hoarding illness with FFXI gear swapping anecdotes?

Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings. Even those were probably released far apart from each other.

This.

I don't remember who said there was a lot of content updates in XI, but from what I remember is that they were few and far between, especially before CoP.

[luxv]

Are people going to reveal their hoarding illness with FFXI gear swapping anecdotes?

Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings. Even those were probably released far apart from each other.

Personally I wasn't saying I want to bring back XI gear swapping. I was just using that as an example of something that gives a game enough depth to be a P2P game.
That was basically XI's thing. I want ARR to find its own thing. That is all.

[Ksandra]

Are people going to reveal their hoarding illness with FFXI gear swapping anecdotes?

Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings. Even those were probably released far apart from each other.

This is very true. I think the really nice thing about ffxi's endgame was how they tried to make each event different from the rest.

As well, I think people are underestimating ffxi's other unique feature (which I love): the multi-class system. WoW is not alt friendly. If you are a healing priest for your raid, chances are you'll never get to being in your war to get gear. Even for those who have tons of jobs lvled, they usually only get to gear up at most two for a current expansion. Gearing an alt successfully, usually means finding another raid group that's times don't conflict with your main raid.


Even without gearswapping, because of ffxi being stagnant on gear progression, you would have still been going forever back to the aery anytime someone got war, brd, etc up. There's no issue about gearing alts since that whm could still be whm for the fight even though they had ridill on their list for their war.

Anecdote: back when our dynamis ls used that website for scheduling to try to get along with other lses, my ls leader always wanted to just spam xarc and beau. We had a wish list system to see where people needed gear. I can remember several times going to a city zone getting all the wish list gear, and him saying, "yes we never have to do this stupid zone again." but it wasn't long before people leveled jobs and putting the gear for that job on their waitlist, and the next think you know, we'd be right back at the smn house, crying.


It should be also mentioned that had their been no gearswapping, we'd have no idea how gear would have looked like. Stats may have been different because of this, so we don't know what would have been useful and what wouldn't have been.

also, I typed this from my phone, so any autocorrects can suck it until I am on a PC

[Buffy]

After the fact, but looking back on FFXI, I would have been a much bigger fan of sets that built on top of each other. So for instance, original AF gets combined with dynamis drops to make AF2, and those pieces were each best in slot.

Then they got combined with a sea drop, again it becomes best in slot, then combined with a salvage drop, becomes best in slot...etc. This would prevent people from feeling like their old gear was worthless, and it would keep old content relevant.

Wouldn't mind seeing a MMO implement something like that.

[Ksandra]

After the fact, but looking back on FFXI, I would have been a much bigger fan of sets that built on top of each other. So for instance, original AF gets combined with dynamis drops to make AF2, and those pieces were each best in slot.

Then they got combined with a sea drop, again it becomes best in slot, then combined with a salvage drop, becomes best in slot...etc. This would prevent people from feeling like their old gear was worthless, and it would keep old content relevant.

Wouldn't mind seeing a MMO implement something like that.

in some respects this is similar to what the magian trials did haha

[Delirium]

After the fact, but looking back on FFXI, I would have been a much bigger fan of sets that built on top of each other. So for instance, original AF gets combined with dynamis drops to make AF2, and those pieces were each best in slot.

Then they got combined with a sea drop, again it becomes best in slot, then combined with a salvage drop, becomes best in slot...etc. This would prevent people from feeling like their old gear was worthless, and it would keep old content relevant.

Wouldn't mind seeing a MMO implement something like that.

So you need to do really old content to upgrade to whatever is current? It would be terrible.

[Buffy]

in some respects this is similar to what the magian trials did haha

Yah, just let it keep building on it over and over...exactly.

[Buffy]

So you need to do really old content to upgrade to whatever is current? It would be terrible.

I don't think so really. They could increase drop rates and add ways to get items over time.

Like take ffxi right now. Say you needed a piece for a new job you just leveled. You could do the quest, do dynamis and either get the drop or have a point system so one run got you the points you needed for a piece of gear, then the login campaign could be the next item.

Make it easy for people to catch up, just have it hard at first and make it easier after you release the next piece in the progression. In my head you could upgrade from base to cap on a single piece of gear in like two weeks, assuming you could get the current drop.

That was all the upset-ness over REM weapons, they took these weapons that were the best in class, that had been consistently updated, and invalidated them with a single patch - it was dumb. Just let people build on their work.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't remember who said there was a lot of content updates in XI, but from what I remember is that they were few and far between, especially before CoP.

CoP came out less than a year after NA release.

Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings.

That's only if you ignore the previous "endgame" content from earlier level caps (e.g. Bloodtear Baldurf, Roc/Simurgh/Serket). Kings/Sky/Dynamis were the first LV75 endgame content, and they were the "only" endgame content until sea/Limbus came out during CoP.

Furthermore, to say that endgame was only composed of Dynamis/etc. kind of sidesteps the fact that Dynamis was 6 (later 10) completely separate zones, up to 3.5hrs each. It's like saying that ARR's endgame is only dungeons and primals.

[Kanriel]

How about a system similar to, but not quite like the heroic/justice/valor point system from WoW:

Running a endgame raid gets you a form of currency, lets say plasm. This plasm is used to buy the "base" gear and the upgrade materials for each tier of content. Make it so one raid gives 100 points or so. When you release the next content tier, the new tier gear requires more points, and the new raid will give 1000 points when cleared. Making it an easy "catch up" if you're behind on content, while also giving a slight reward to the top LS's by letting them get base gear as you go. Have upgrades consume the plasm as well as certain items you acquire from killing bosses. Not sure if the KI system from SoA would be the best there, I'd opt closer to a token system from WoW as physical drops. Have each piece of gear have +1/+2 versions, maybe +3 versions (maybe one tier for each difficulty level of the raid?) that you upgrade throughout the content run, and make crafted gear and regular boss drops be at the +1 or +2 level, so that people will want that gear until they're able to upgrade their base equipment to be better than it. This system would allow grinding to be useful, allow catch up to be possible, keep regular boss drops and crafting in the game for each tier, etc. It's not perfect, but an idea of what they could do.

[Foxer]

So you need to do really old content to upgrade to whatever is current? It would be terrible.

How would this be terrible? lol

It's not like new content will always mean new groundbreaking concept/mechanics every single time. As long as they keep the "really old" content enjoyable or at least challenging, there is nothing wrong with reusing it. If it allows me to make more use of the world's map, while at the same time implementing shit here and there, then that's fine by me.

[Kanriel]

How would this be terrible? lol

It's not like new content will always mean new groundbreaking concept/mechanics every single time. As long as they keep the "really old" content enjoyable or at least challenging, there is nothing wrong with reusing it. If it allows me to make more use of the world's map, while at the same time implementing shit here and there, then that's fine by me.

It's terrible because if you need 24 people to do the raid and you get 24 people in your LS together...they're going to want to do the raid they can all benefit from, not the one one person needs to catch up.

[Foxer]

It's terrible because if you need 24 people to do the raid and you get 24 people in your LS together...they're going to want to do the raid they can all benefit from, not the one one person needs to catch up.

Things like Dynamis and Limbus only ever needed 18 people, and even then, people did them with less. Not to mention that everyone<- benefits from those events because they dropped gear or materials needed for most, if not all jobs. NOT to mention a sellable or collectable currency.

Besides, high-man content such as Dynamis and Limbus always end up getting completed with a small group of people once the content has become older, because the level cap went up, or the gear got better, and we become more skilled in that particular content. To me, that's where the game gets fun. Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Abyssea; all with 1-6 people.

I'm pretty sure the very last event I did before I quit 1.5 years ago, was a Dynamis. :<

[Kanriel]

Things like Dynamis and Limbus only ever needed 18 people, and even then, people did them with less. Not to mention that everyone<- benefits from those events because they dropped gear or materials needed for most, if not all jobs, NOT to mention a sellable or collectable currency.

Besides, high-man content such as Dynamis and Limbus always end up getting completed with a small group of people once the content has become older, because the level cap went up, or the gear got better, and we become more skilled in that particular content. To me, that's where the game gets fun. Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Abyssea; all with 1-6 people.

I'm pretty sure the very last even I did before I quit 1.5 years ago, was a Dynamis. :<

That was sideways progression FFXI. We're talking about a vertical progression system for FFXIV.

[Foxer]

Then I guess you really can't even make the comparison to start begin with.

I'm going to put money on somewhere along the line, FFXIV will have you farming 50 EP crabs to begin your trial for X weapon, or kill certain mobs in certain dungeons (a la hunting logs). A few years from now, Labyrinth might eveb be updated to drop a certain item that you need to upgrade your level 80 relic. The good thing will be that it won't require 24 people. It might just require a few.

Diagonal progression FTW.

[Deuce]

CoP came out less than a year after NA release.

Correct, CoP came out about 11 months after NA PC release, but the update history for XI was limited before then and even afterwards until ToAU was released in 2006. Also, it's important to remember that a lot of those updates mainly contained hot fixes for bugs and "not working as intended" fixes.

That's only if you ignore the previous "endgame" content from earlier level caps (e.g. Bloodtear Baldurf, Roc/Simurgh/Serket). Kings/Sky/Dynamis were the first LV75 endgame content, and they were the "only" endgame content until sea/Limbus came out during CoP.

Furthermore, to say that endgame was only composed of Dynamis/etc. kind of sidesteps the fact that Dynamis was 6 (later 10) completely separate zones, up to 3.5hrs each. It's like saying that ARR's endgame is only dungeons and primals.

Players were still restricted to completing Dynamis twice a week and the requirements for spawning NMs in sky were extremely time consuming originally. HNMs? Well, that goes without saying. Also, it took more than a year and half between when the first Dynamis zones were released and Limbus was introduced. It also took a year for ToAU content to be fully released.

[Spider-Dan]

Correct, CoP came out about 11 months after NA PC release, but the update history for XI was limited before then and even afterwards until ToAU was released in 2006.

I'm not sure if you're actually referring to the list that you linked, but I count 6 version updates in '04, 5 in '05, 6 in '06, 5 in '07, and then 4 every year after that. Looks to me like older XI was more frequently updated, not less.

Also, it took more than a year and half between when the first Dynamis zones were released and Limbus was introduced. It also took a year for ToAU content to be fully released.

CoP (and ENMs) was released in 9/04, sea (Hu'Xzoi/Ru'Hmet) came out in 4/05, Limbus came out in 10/05, main CoP Dynamis 12/05, Dyn-Tav 2/06, TAU 4/06. The biggest gap there was right after CoP came out, when people were busy dying to level-capped missions and spamming all the new ENMs.

[Deuce]

I'm not sure if you're actually referring to the list that you linked, but I count 6 version updates in '04, 5 in '05, 6 in '06, 5 in '07, and then 4 every year after that. Looks to me like older XI was more frequently updated, not less.

I never played much after 2008-2009, so I was pulling most of that from 2004-2008. Either way, if you read the update details you'll notice that about 50% of those updates added meaningful content to most endgame players aka Dynamis, Limbus, KSNM battles.

CoP (and ENMs) was released in 9/04, sea (Hu'Xzoi/Ru'Hmet) came out in 4/05, Limbus came out in 10/05, main CoP Dynamis 12/05, Dyn-Tav 2/06, TAU 4/06. The biggest gap there was right after CoP came out, when people were busy dying to level-capped missions and spamming all the new ENMs.

This is all opinion at this point, but I personally don't consider 6-7 months between major updates all that fast. It was a different time for MMOs between 05-06, but even for 2005 FFXI was slow to add content. Also, have to remember that XI provided very little for players to do between 1-75 except level and maybe camp some NMs with shitty drop rates. All of the game's content was designed to string you along for months at a time until the next update came out with the very same thing.