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  1. #141

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    CoP came out less than a year after NA release.


    That's only if you ignore the previous "endgame" content from earlier level caps (e.g. Bloodtear Baldurf, Roc/Simurgh/Serket). Kings/Sky/Dynamis were the first LV75 endgame content, and they were the "only" endgame content until sea/Limbus came out during CoP.

    Furthermore, to say that endgame was only composed of Dynamis/etc. kind of sidesteps the fact that Dynamis was 6 (later 10) completely separate zones, up to 3.5hrs each. It's like saying that ARR's endgame is only dungeons and primals.
    It wasn't any different or more interesting than Kings, Sky and Dynamis. Roc, Serket and that shit is akin to Great Buffalo being end-game content. That's like if Kings (a part of end-game that is widely despised) were the only thing you could do until CoP came out. Not to mention those monsters had limited loot pools with low drop rates with situational items (like everything else), so there's a limit to how lucrative it even was as an end-game activity.

    And dynamis was the most boring, repetitive, soul sucking, long-winded event that was so clearly designed to suck all your time away I wonder how you can say that is truly good content. Sure, every 3 days you need up to (and I say up to because eventually it was reduced...eventually) 64 people to clear an event. Not to mention that for the most part, if you didn't get AF from it, you weren't getting anything so you had to spend 3.5 hours doing boring shit with no direct incentive. Take the blinders off and you'll see that dynamis is to content as piercing your dick is to pleasure. So, what did you do in-between dynamis? Sky, or if you were capable and the timing was right, Kings. I don't need to go into detail about Kings, but Sky was cool. Just a shame there was so much farming involved to get to decent boss fights.

    None of these events could be done quickly or freely, and until CoP came along as a much needed distraction from the monotony, XI's end-game was just a cycle of 3 things that each took hours to complete every time. Then CoP came along, with staggered releases of Sea (CoP mission locked), and Limbus, but I remember until those came out everyone was just doing the same old thing. Then Limbus came as a welcome distraction to dynamis (and only because it was 10x shorter, not 10x more fun, though I did like fighting Omega and Ultima more than anything in dynamis) and Sea was an unwelcome distraction to Sky (seriously, Sea sucked). So the monotony continued, with only dragons (another large scale hassle-filled event) to pace out the monotony of Sea and Limbus.

    Incase you're thinking at this point, "Boy, that sure is a lot of content!" keep in mind how boring and frustrating dynamis, sky and kings were already. Going back to old content is never fun and it wasn't in XI, and going forward to "new" content that was basically rehashed old content with new shiny gear just made for the worst end-game for ages. Eventually, it became monotonous because it never truly was different to previous content. Just dressed differently.

    Then ToAU came out and things got better. Assault and Salvage were good, still long-winded as hell and basically rehashing concepts from dynamis and limbus, we got more events and new things to do, but people still did old content. And it still wasn't fun. But it was still kinda relevant, so that sucked. But at least you had a lot of things to do, right?

    No, not really. Unless you're easily excited by doing things you've done 1000 times before, you realistically only had a few things you could actively do at a time depending on your LS and your personal pain tolerance.

  2. #142
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    Yes, you didn't like XI, I get it. That does not mean that there was nothing to do, only that you didn't care for any of it.

    There was lots of opportunity for horizontal gear acquisition in XI, which gave you at least some ancillary reward while you helped others finish gearing from events that did not have primary gear upgrades for you. In a vertical system, either an event has primary gear upgrades for you, or you're doing it purely for charity (and yes, this applies to tokens as well).

    P.S. "until CoP came along" (so, less than one year after NA release), the vast majority of non-JP players were still mired in the epic grind that was getting-to-75-on-your-first-job-in-2004, so the idea that they were somehow stuck at endgame with nothing to do is totally inapplicable

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Yes, you didn't like XI, I get it. That does not mean that there was nothing to do, only that you didn't care for any of it.
    Most people would consider those to roughly mean the same thing in an MMO, these days at least.

  4. #144
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    When I hear 'horizontal gear progression', it just makes me think "more padding on top of shitty drop rates to extend your playtime needlessly". I mean really, depending on the job you're "required" to have at least 4 sets of gear filling 16 slots each or otherwise be considered a gimp. It was an almost neverending treadmill of the same content for one little thing here or there, not even counting multiple jobs leveled.
    It would be one thing if these events were entertaining or contained elements to mix things up more, but they didn't. It was pretty much the same damn thing every time. At least Abyssea and Voidwatch (and later Dynamis) mixed combat up a little bit by adding staggers, though these were oddly implemented and sometimes trivialized the encounter. It felt like it gave you more control over combat than TP>WS>TP>WS or nuke till no mp-hmp-nuke ad nauseum.

  5. #145

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Yes, you didn't like XI, I get it. That does not mean that there was nothing to do, only that you didn't care for any of it.
    I never said there was nothing to do. There was a lot to do, it was just completely long winded, unfulfilling and frustrating. This is why you have problems Dan, you really do read what you want to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    There was lots of opportunity for horizontal gear acquisition in XI, which gave you at least some ancillary reward while you helped others finish gearing from events that did not have primary gear upgrades for you. In a vertical system, either an event has primary gear upgrades for you, or you're doing it purely for charity (and yes, this applies to tokens as well).
    Not unless you had multiple jobs leveled (or planned to level them), which until Abyssea was a chore in itself. And no, horizontal gear does not provide adequate compensation because ultimately it's still probably useless for your job unless you want that 0.5% increase to your cast interruption set. I know you feel differently about gear and you love horizontal gear sets. And yes, with vertical gear you're doing it mostly charity, but this isn't a game where you spam old content after you're done with it unless you're helping out. You're just helping a friend move forward (and Yoshi already said they would provide incentives for helping out)

    And with tokens, you only aren't doing it for charity since you can actually gain rewards that are unrelated to the fight itself. You don't have to spend upwards of 4 hours to help do a single run that might provide absolutely no reward. Terrible. Finally, let's not ignore that not all LS' treat players equally, but even if you put that aside for a second, the game wasn't designed in a way to help the individual progress, so while you may get trash no one wants, you might not get anything due to personal circumstances. Something that won't happen in a game designed to be friendly towards players, not antagonistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    P.S. "until CoP came along" (so, less than one year after NA release), the vast majority of non-JP players were still mired in the epic grind that was getting-to-75-on-your-first-job-in-2004, so the idea that they were somehow stuck at endgame with nothing to do is totally inapplicable
    Yeah, because CoP added so much to the game that wasn't already there. Oh wait! It didn't. No one gave a flying shit about CoP until Sea and Limbus (ENMs were worth nothing) so they all carried on doing Sky, Kings and Dynamis. The only reason people did CoP was because they wanted access to Sea when it was eventually released (and boy, was that a lot of fun!), otherwise there were no shits given. Then Sea came out and it was a more frustrating, long-winded, even more vague version of Sky. So eventually people stopped caring as much and Sea became just another rote event to add to the roster of boring shit you could do that day.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    Not unless you had multiple jobs leveled (or planned to level them), which until Abyssea was a chore in itself. And no, horizontal gear does not provide adequate compensation because ultimately it's still probably useless for your job unless you want that 0.5% increase to your cast interruption set. I know you feel differently about gear and you love horizontal gear sets. And yes, with vertical gear you're doing it mostly charity, but this isn't a game where you spam old content after you're done with it unless you're helping out. You're just helping a friend move forward (and Yoshi already said they would provide incentives for helping out)

    And with tokens, you only aren't doing it for charity since you can actually gain rewards that are unrelated to the fight itself. You don't have to spend upwards of 4 hours to help do a single run that might provide absolutely no reward. Terrible. Finally, let's not ignore that not all LS' treat players equally, but even if you put that aside for a second, the game wasn't designed in a way to help the individual progress, so while you may get trash no one wants, you might not get anything due to personal circumstances. Something that won't happen in a game designed to be friendly towards players, not antagonistic.
    Except for the fact that "spamming old content" is the entire reason XI lasted as long as it did. If it weren't for the 4 gear sets with 16 pieces each, and the multitude of players willing to walk that treadmill to get the 0.5% increase to our cast interruption set, XI would have died before ToAU even existed.

    I'm not saying the events themselves were a good thing for us players, but they kept us playing, and the end result was that the game and its community continued on. In general, that's still a net positive, as if the game became a ghost town none of us would be here having this conversation in the first place.

  7. #147

    Whole lotta rose tinted goggles up in here. Do you people honestly remember having to go back to Sky/Dynamis Cities/HNMs for 1-4 people with happy elated feelings? It was a pain in the ass, kind of akin to Vanilla WoW where you had to take a new player to MC/BWL to gear them for AQ to get them ready for Naxx blah blah blah. The 1st few times it wasn't a big deal, but after awhile it was just "Oh we have to go back again? Fucking hell....." Even if CoP came out a year after NA release, people didn't really even touch it for awhile, and just kept doing HNM's/Sky/Dynamis.

    While I did like being able to gather up certain pieces of gear here and there for specific things (Get that Thf knife from sozu for better sky drops!), it wore thin after awhile. If ffxiv were to make it so gear would stay semi relevant, but be replaced after 6-8 months or so I wouldn't care at all, especially if a content patch with a raid/dungeon only replaced 1/2 of your gear and then the rest was replaced with another content patch raid/dungeon.

    WoW's issue is the whole LFR > Normal > Hardmode difficulty bullshit nowadays. You basically farm LFR to farm Normal raid to farm hardmode raid and then once you're finally close to being done the new raid is out and you start all over again. And now there are even bonus items like thunderforged shit and what not for even more RNG.

    Also FFXIV doesnt need to try to beat WoW's subs, it never will, Blizzard just happened to get lucky as shit with their game and the timing of it and that probably won't happen again for a long long time if at all. Games continue to fail because they look at WoW as the "we need to be that" model while not understanding that even Blizzard wasn't making a game with that in mind at the time.

  8. #148

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferien View Post
    Except for the fact that "spamming old content" is the entire reason XI lasted as long as it did. If it weren't for the 4 gear sets with 16 pieces each, and the multitude of players willing to walk that treadmill to get the 0.5% increase to our cast interruption set, XI would have died before ToAU even existed.

    I'm not saying the events themselves were a good thing for us players, but they kept us playing, and the end result was that the game and its community continued on. In general, that's still a net positive, as if the game became a ghost town none of us would be here having this conversation in the first place.
    All you're saying is that people were too stupid to realise how bad XI was because the pretext of gear and minimal improvements managed to string them along for years. You can praise it for that if you want but it won't stop me thinking you're an idiot.

  9. #149
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    Is there an phase that means the opposite of rose-tinted glasses? God damn.

    The pretext of gear and minimal improvements stringing people along for years is how every MMO works. I certainly enjoyed myself while I was there. I think BDSM is probably a nice allegory here.

  10. #150
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    Its Elcura, don't bother taking it seriously. Gear swap and various gear kept ffxi interesting and fun.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    All you're saying is that people were too stupid to realise how bad XI was because the pretext of gear and minimal improvements managed to string them along for years. You can praise it for that if you want but it won't stop me thinking you're an idiot.
    I wouldn't call it praise. For all of its problems, it just worked, and created an MMO that was able to perpetuate itself. As much as kings and dynamis frustrated us, we kept going back to it just to get that new piece of loot.

    Obsoleting old events, while giving the players something new and relevant, leads to a whole shitload of content that noone will ever do anymore. Imagine a world where it's just shit that's there and irrelevant, where the best reward for the kill is the title. It's not enough to keep people coming back, and it leads down a path where the game just flat out dies after a few months because nobody cares.

    XI's massive breadth of horizontal gear progression allowed for content that people would continually be interested in doing years down the line. If the content itself hadn't been so masochistic, you'd be singing its praises and a lot of us would still be playing.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I never said there was nothing to do. There was a lot to do, it was just completely long winded, unfulfilling and frustrating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    Also, let's not forget how long it took to get all that "content" in XI. For the longest time it was only sky, dynamis and kings.
    "Only" sky/Dynamis/kings was still plenty of content by itself (especially given the percentage of NA players actually at endgame at the time). But since you hated all of it, you seem to think it didn't count, or something.

    And no, horizontal gear does not provide adequate compensation because ultimately it's still probably useless for your job unless you want that 0.5% increase to your cast interruption set. I know you feel differently about gear and you love horizontal gear sets.
    Well, if you have no interest in alternate gear sets, then you're right, horizontal gear acquisition is not going to do much for you. This statement is about as useful as questioning the purpose of hard mode encounters/elite gear if you only play the game to progress through the storyline.

    And yes, with vertical gear you're doing it mostly charity, but this isn't a game where you spam old content after you're done with it unless you're helping out.
    So, in other words, like every MMO ever?

    No one spams old content that they are "done with" unless they are "helping out." The difference is that you could (personally) be "done with" Limbus (i.e. you have all the major pieces of gear you needed) and still continue to pick up lots of minor upgrades/sidegrades (e.g. AF+1) while helping others.

    And with tokens, you only aren't doing it for charity since you can actually gain rewards that are unrelated to the fight itself.
    ...except that in a vertical system, unless you can spend tokens on vertical upgrades (that you haven't already purchased), it's still just charity.

    Finally, let's not ignore that not all LS' treat players equally, but even if you put that aside for a second, the game wasn't designed in a way to help the individual progress, so while you may get trash no one wants, you might not get anything due to personal circumstances. Something that won't happen in a game designed to be friendly towards players, not antagonistic.
    Oh, do you mean like people complaining about being "screwed" by need/greed lotting system? You're right, nothing so antagonistic could happen in ARR.

    Rose-tinted glasses, indeed.

    No one gave a flying shit about CoP until Sea and Limbus (ENMs were worth nothing)
    ........

  13. #153
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    I can comprehend both sides/preferences of the discussion here. I left FFXI for WoW and was happy with no customisation/straight forward progression. 2 expansions later I was beginning to get bored of the daily quest grind in the latest expansion on top of the very boring gear choices, and went back to FFXI and was enjoying collecting random situational items from here and there. I'm still unsure what I prefer. On the WoW side, I saved a lot of time, but got bored. On the FFXI side, I sank a lot of time on it, but was usually amused and/or frustrated by the drop rate on some things.

    Still, casting the "old content" side of discussion aside, I think what some of us in this thread want is the option or ability to further tweak things. I understand and appreciate we can do that currently given the class system and the ability to have cross-class abilities (up to 10 if not an advanced class and 5 on a normal class if I understood the document correctly). But, most if not all FFs (can't speak for 1-5, sorry!) has traditionally allowed more customisation through gear:

    FF6 - the 2 relic slots, and espers to learn spells and also stat boosts
    FF7 - materia that grant everything else in the game
    Crisis Core - Materia and Materia Fusion... the 4 accessory slots only counted until you got the Genji stuff, where it's the ultimate goal
    FF8 - junctions
    FF9 - traits that can be learnt per weapon
    FF10 - up to 4x slots for traits/bonuses

    Running around collecting all the different materia (7 - choco breeding/race primarily, and side quests and exploration | Crisis Core - missions missions missions, if a bit too repetitive and boring), espers (6 - side hidden areas/secret bosses) , GFs (8 - see 6, oh, TRIPLE TRIAD), weapons (9 - choco digging, auction house, bosses, side areas, item synthesis, Triple Triad again), and special items (10; don't shoot me if I got this wrong, not played 10 recently for a while lol lots and lots of side quests/areas, monster arena) to grant different levels of customisation is probably what kept a lot of players interested in producing fun and game breaking sets, also intuiative ways to defeat X boss, or at low level, etc etc etc -- I guess, the metagame.

    As it stands as far as I can see in FFXIV (I did not get into the beta) the metagame doesn't appear to be as prevailent outside of getting the most powerful ilvl item available at the time, and then using your class's available abilities to overcome content.

    Initially when I heard of FFXIV getting materia, the thing that shot through my head was FF7 materia. Equip and level X materia, get X spell, skill or trait, etc

    Instead, it just appears to be more stat boosts. However in this scenario, it's stat boosts that so far allows you to pick what kind of playstyle you have, which is some customisation. I don't understand it too much of it all yet, but I won't be surprised if later on down the line there's going to be tools/spreadsheets around that'll let you input your current gear/stats and it'll spit out the most optimal configuration.

    EDIT: Besides the materia, I'm currently not aware of any other types of enhancement or features for your character (that's not cosmetic) that increase or change performance

    Hope the above makes sense of what I am trying to elaborate. I know I compared a bunch of offline games to one MMO, but it is the spirit of Final Fantasy afterall.

  14. #154
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    I'd rather have a game with "shitload of content that no one will ever do anymore" than spend 4 years doing dynamis twice a week to get ONE AF. Anyways you should stop this discussion, it's been argued a thousand times and no one will change opinion by it.

    PD: Having to repeat something ad-nasueum to get you reward doesn't turn it into a bunch of content.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stig View Post
    Running around collecting all the different materia (7 - choco breeding/race primarily, and side quests and exploration | Crisis Core - missions missions missions, if a bit too repetitive and boring), espers (6 - side hidden areas/secret bosses) , GFs (8 - see 6, oh, TRIPLE TRIAD), weapons (9 - choco digging, auction house, bosses, side areas, item synthesis, Triple Triad again), and special items (10; don't shoot me if I got this wrong, not played 10 recently for a while lol lots and lots of side quests/areas, monster arena) to grant different levels of customisation is probably what kept a lot of players interested in producing fun and game breaking sets, also intuiative ways to defeat X boss, or at low level, etc etc etc -- I guess, the metagame.

    Instead, it just appears to be more stat boosts. However in this scenario, it's stat boosts that so far allows you to pick what kind of playstyle you have, which is some customisation. I don't understand it too much of it all yet, but I won't be surprised if later on down the line there's going to be tools/spreadsheets around that'll let you input your current gear/stats and it'll spit out the most optimal configuration.

    Hope the above makes sense of what I am trying to elaborate. I know I compared a bunch of offline games to one MMO, but it is the spirit of Final Fantasy afterall.
    I think the difference in this case is that most of those sidequests for gear led to the ultimate stage equipment (including materia / relics), which meant there was an end to the grind. In the case of MMOs, this grind perpetuates itself over new iterations of tiers as the lifeblood of the game.
    Also, these events didn't suck up weeks of time for one upgrade. For the most part, they were sprinkled along the entire game which let you take a break from the main scenario (card games, choco digging, auction, blitzball) or were completed mostly passively through the course of regular play (materia, sphere grid, weapon customization). These were also ultimately optional. In the case of MMOs, you're not -required- to do the equivalence of these sidequests, but the 'endgame' revolves around it and its blown up out of proportion to make people play longer.
    The important thing to note is that in a lot of these cases, the events in question are different and more entertaining than others; Chocobo Hot and Cold was probably my favorite distraction in an FF game and provided real tangible benefits, with Triple Triad being close behind. Both of these were spread over the course of their respective games though, not the ultimate destination of the game itself.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pere View Post
    I'd rather have a game with "shitload of content that no one will ever do anymore" than spend 4 years doing dynamis twice a week to get ONE AF. Anyways you should stop this discussion, it's been argued a thousand times and no one will change opinion by it.

    PD: Having to repeat something ad-nasueum to get you reward doesn't turn it into a bunch of content.
    It's been 10 years since Tanaka style horizontal progression. Are you asserting that it can't be done differently with less grind? Because it can.

    Tying progression to older content not only drums up demand to run initial release raids well into the life of the game but also gives people time to enjoy something the devs put work into before tackling the newer raids. It could be done like Magian Trials were or require hardmode items to build some new ultimate.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    It's been 10 years since Tanaka style horizontal progression. Are you asserting that it can't be done differently with less grind? Because it can.

    Tying progression to older content not only drums up demand to run initial release raids well into the life of the game but also gives people time to enjoy something the devs put work into before tackling the newer raids. It could be done like Magian Trials were or require hardmode items to build some new ultimate.
    I've tried to explain like 40 times that not a single person is asking for 2004 era FFXI, that we're simply asking for non-linear gear progression so its not just a rerun of every MMO ever... But apparently people are too thick or can't think of a good argument against non-linear gear besides "but ffxi events..." and "Well LS Owners are unfair..." which is irrelevant, cause the first one is meaningless as its not what we're asking for and the second one is the human equation which will happen here too, surprise surprise people are dicks.

    As far as any sort of Character customization goes, they could take a page out of FF7 and have Materia do more than add yet another painfully linear stat+ upgrade system... give it the variety, and have Materia come from more than exploding gear, make it purchasable with tokens of come from rare drops in Dungeons or NMs in those field instances that name escapes me right now (Forgive me if you already can...). Even if the variety isn't in gear itself, Materia could appeal to a lot of those people who want the variety.

    (what happened to the "to shit is situational" thread, feels like this argument would be deported there if it wasn't already a sh*tty thread )

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    Then let me ask the question; what is the new way to do horizontal progression? And don't tell me Trial of Magians.

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    People just don't want to do old content that they had on farm for months prior to the new content patch/expansion. That concept necessarily ties in with a vertical progression system for easy/accessible games, they require more content. XI did fine with minimal content because it took a lot of time to get to the content (and then they artificially slowed it down even further with timers and competition).

    Being non-linear is fine, but if anything it requires more content rather then less. I don't think SE could keep up with a Blizzard-type content update schedule, so any hopes of that are probably dashed. If you really want to replay content over and over again, you'll be able to do so, but I sure as hell don't want to be forced into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidu View Post
    Being non-linear is fine, but if anything it requires more content rather then less. I don't think SE could keep up with a Blizzard-type content update schedule, so any hopes of that are probably dashed.
    I don't think that is a fair thing to assume at this point. This entirely depends on the amount of manpower and resources they allocate to the development of the game. This has nothing to do wigh S-E vs. Blizzard. Suggesting it does is... well... stupid.

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