Random Fail: your words are false

[Niiro]

If someone doesn't care to learn the basics of how to play their job it sure as fuck isn't my job to teach them.

[Shalafi]

I don't think anyone said anything about teaching. Just tell them what they are doing wrong and that they should feel bad.

[Serenseven]

But a low DPS number doesn't "explain" anything; it's just a hammer to bludgeon bad players with by telling them that they are bad. It doesn't tell them how to improve.

If you can't tell someone what they are doing wrong (and therefore, how to fix it) then you aren't providing constructive criticism. And you don't need a parser to see what they are doing wrong.

This assumes that A) said player isn't so bad that even an immediate 50% improvement in their DPS wouldn't resolve the issue at hand, B) said player is actually amenable to taking instruction, C) that I understand said player's job well enough to actually provide instruction (I'm a caster; the crazy things MNKs do to keep their GL going is none of my concern), and D) that the rest of the party will be patient enough to be willing to wait while I teach and then take another 3 or 4 goes at the content until it actually sinks in.

In my experience, these 4 conditions are never all simultaneously true, except rarely in sub-30 dungeons if you get completely green players who are just happy the obviously experienced BLM (I mean, look at all that shiny i180 gear! [and pay no attention that it's mostly law]) isn't screaming at them like in the last 4 dungeons they attempted.

[Spider-Dan]

None of those conditions are mitigated by having an officially-sanctioned parser that gives you a number to shout at them.

Basically, I agree with Yoshi that the only real outcome of officially sanctioning parsers is that people will say, "you're only dealing X DPS but you should be dealing Y DPS!" If you can't tell them what to do differently (because you don't know/you don't play that job) then simply telling them their DPS figure won't change anything.

[Tokitoki]

None of those conditions are mitigated by having an officially-sanctioned parser that gives you a number to shout at them.

Basically, I agree with Yoshi that the only real outcome of officially sanctioning parsers is that people will say, "you're only dealing X DPS but you should be dealing Y DPS!" If you can't tell them what to do differently (because you don't know/you don't play that job) then simply telling them their DPS figure won't change anything.

That depends on how you phrase it to them. Of course giving them two numbers won't do anything, but if you say something along the lines of "your DPS is X compared to the standard which is Y. You should try a community board to figure out what you might be doing wrong" you're at least taking a step in the right direction.

It won't help in that moment, but having a benchmark you can speak about in game without fearing the banhammer plus directing them to some kind of forum could help them in the long run.

[Tokitoki]

Definitely only hit post once. Oh well.

[Spider-Dan]

But you don't need a defined DPS number to do that. You can just tell them that their damage is bad "based on looking at the log" or what have you, and still tell them to lern2play.

Given that SE does not go after people for using parsers for themselves, and only enforces this rule when you use parser data to criticize other players, it seems to me that almost by definition the only outcome of an officially-sanctioned parser is that people will use it to give (hollow and unconstructive) criticism to other players. That's not a compelling argument for changing the rules.

[Spider-Dan]

[also double]

[Carth]

You use the parser to supplement the already sneaking suspicion you had from watching their poor play. If you're only throwing numbers at them you're obviously not trying to help at all.

[Raldo]

As someone who staunchly refuses to use 3rd party tools, I would find utility in it. I'm not going to throw my hat into this speculative bullshit, but I would certainly benefit from an official parser / DPS meter / whatever, especially as I try to work out how to best use BRD in its new more complicated state.

If I had an official way to compare with another BRD that was beating me by a fair margin, I would be inclined to ask them for advice (or more likely, just pay more attention to what they're doing).


I would also use an official meter as the basis for some of my commendations, but that's not really very important.

[Tokitoki]

But you don't need a defined DPS number to do that. You can just tell them that their damage is bad "based on looking at the log" or what have you, and still tell them to lern2play.

Given that SE does not go after people for using parsers for themselves, and only enforces this rule when you use parser data to criticize other players, it seems to me that almost by definition the only outcome of an officially-sanctioned parser is that people will use it to give (hollow and unconstructive) criticism to other players. That's not a compelling argument for changing the rules.

Eyeballing it has never held up in any argument we've had in XIV or XI for that matter. You really think someone's going to listen to it when they're getting defensive from being called out?

You can't immediately say that an official parser will only lead to hollow, nonconstructive criticism. Will there be some? Sure; there already is. The point was to try to lead people to an answer, not to simply yell at them to do better. What better way to show someone than with an app that reads out your DPS?

I agree that yelling at people accomplishes nothing, though.

[Spider-Dan]

I mean, if you're comparing DPS jobs (particularly on single target) then the enmity meter probably accomplishes enough to suit your purpose.

But again: if you don't know enough about their job to tell them specifically what they are doing wrong, the only kind of criticism you can offer is hollow. "lern2play" is not constructive, even if you preface it with "please go read the internet and lern2play."

As someone who staunchly refuses to use 3rd party tools, I would find utility in it.

I don't see why that would make a difference for you. Even if SE officially allows 3rd-party tools, they are still 3rd-party, and Yoshi has already made it clear that (currently) 3rd-party parsers are fine as long as you aren't using them to evaluate others (in in-game chat).

[Niiro]

Except for SMN.

and BLM

and BRD

and DRG

and MCH

and NIN

Yea, except for those the enmity meter is just fine.

[Tokitoki]

I mean, if you're comparing DPS jobs (particularly on single target) then the enmity meter probably accomplishes enough to suit your purpose.

But again: if you don't know enough about their job to tell them specifically what they are doing wrong, the only kind of criticism you can offer is hollow. "lern2play" is not constructive, even if you preface it with "please go read the internet and lern2play."

You're right. Leading them to a forum/community where they will be able to find out a better skill rotation is completely hollow. Fuck me for trying to be helpful and pointing them in the right direction.

Just because you type "lern2play," doesn't make your point more valid or mine less so. I did not use those words and there is a marked difference between someone saying in chat "omfg noob ur DPS is only 300 instead of 700. gtfo lern2play" and "Your DPS is much lower than it should be at this point in the game. Maybe check out the 'Monk 3.0 Discussion' thread on Bluegartr to see if you can find a rotation that would be better."

But whatever, I'll just go "lern2play" over there.

[Raldo]

I don't see why that would make a difference for you. Even if SE officially allows 3rd-party tools, they are still 3rd-party, and Yoshi has already made it clear that (currently) 3rd-party parsers are fine as long as you aren't using them to criticize others.

I wasn't aware we were restricting the argument to 3rd party tools. I was hoping more for a meter built into the game, rather than just officially saying "yeah, we're not going to ban you for these 3rd party tools".

If you're restricting your argument to 3rd party tools, then yeah, nothing will change. The people who don't care won't have the tools, and they certainly don't care to hear complaining from a random stranger about a number that they can't see.

[Deadgye]

I usually had quelling strikes active for my opener on brd if the tank didn't yolo pull, I know our blm had to utilize it to not pull aggro at certain times. I use my drg backflip for positioning often. And then let's not even talk about fights with multiple mobs that get bursted down making the enmity meter useless.

[Spider-Dan]

Yea, except for those the enmity meter is just fine.

Outside of Quelling Strikes being used (a buff everyone in party can see), what is your objection?

If someone's DPS is low enough to be worth pointing out, the enmity meter will work just fine. If you want a parser because you need to tell someone that they are 10% off of optimal, you're probably an asshole and the reason the rule exists.

Keep in mind that I already gave the real solution: look at what they are doing and tell them what they are doing wrong. Enmity meters are the last resort for those who desperately want to correct their party members based solely on what the parser is saying, but don't understand the job in question well enough to give direction.

[Korialstrasz]

Well you're in the right thread in any case.

[Korialstrasz]

Courtesy of Reddit, I present to you the "Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Dragoon rotation for beginners"

[Spider-Dan]

I did not use those words and there is a marked difference between someone saying in chat "omfg noob ur DPS is only 300 instead of 700. gtfo lern2play" and "Your DPS is much lower than it should be at this point in the game. Maybe check out the 'Monk 3.0 Discussion' thread on Bluegartr to see if you can find a rotation that would be better."

There is no functional difference between "hey, your damage is low, go check out this thread for some tips" and "hey, your damage is 300 but it should be 700, go check out this thread for tips."