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  1. #21
    Old Odin
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    Dec 2011
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    Seravi Edalborez
    FFXIV Server
    Hyperion
    FFXI Server
    Titan

    Relic+1 is pretty much a no brainer for everyone except BRD (who only gets +1 dmg from the upgrade).

  2. #22
    Smells like Onions
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    1
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    0

    Allagan Circlet of Casting
    VIT: 18 (+6)
    INT: 18 (+6)
    ACC: 15 (+15)
    DET: 15 (+4)
    SSPEED: 0 (-16)
    CRIT: 0 (-16)

    HQ Vanya Hat of Casting (with 2QuicktongueIII, 1QuicktongueII, 1SavageAimII, 1SavageAimI)
    VIT: 12 (-6)
    INT: 12 (-6)
    ACC: 0 (-15)
    DET: 11 (-4)
    SSPEED: 16 (+16)
    CRIT: 16 (+16)


    With Allagan:
    ACC 423
    CRIT 426
    DET 303
    MAGIC POT 445
    SPELL SPEED 425

    With Vanya:
    ACC 408
    CRIT 442
    DET 299
    MAGIC POT 439
    SPELL SPEED 441

    This may sound stupid, but is it worth losing so much Crit and Spell Speed to get those extra points in INT/ACC/DET and the 15 points in Accuracy? Do I really need that much accuracy?
    PS: I know that Vanya is ilvl70, but still...

  3. #23
    Yoshi P
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    8
    FFXIV Character
    Fitz Everleigh
    FFXIV Server
    Excalibur
    FFXI Server
    Valefor

    Leaving off Sorcerer's Petasos isn't really fair.

    Sorcerer's Petasos:
    VIT: 18 (=)
    INT: 18 (=)
    ACC: 0 (-15)
    DET: 0 (-15)
    SSPEED: 21 (+21)
    CRIT: 15 (+15)

    Relic is clearly the winner here (at least I don't see why it isn't), even moreso when you factor in the cost that it would take to get Vanya HQ Hat and materia melds (I don't remember how many guaranteed slots are on the HQ hat, but I'm pretty sure going to 4 or 5 is going to hit forbidden iirc). Spell Speed seems to be one of those stats that needs to be weighed in terms of the whole set and not on the piece of alone. 15ms off cast time isn't going to do much on it's own, but maybe with a different setup you're pushing 450~500ms which is going to be half a second off cast time. Since Allagan is listed that means the Coil is being done and yes accuracy is an important stat there. I've never done past Turn 1 personally, but I can't imagine the the 470Acc you need for Turn 1 stays static for every additional turn.

    Didn't realize you had what appeared to be set value listed, and with those, yes that accuracy you're missing is going to be very important at values that low in the Coil. The spell speed gain appears to be confined strictly to that 16ms so I wouldn't deem that greater than accuracy or even determination for that matter.

  4. #24
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    Gouka Mekkyaku
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    Gilgamesh
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    Diabolos

    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    Relic+1 is pretty much a no brainer for everyone except BRD (who only gets +1 dmg from the upgrade).
    May even be for BRD. The DMG equation valk displays is related to physical damage and BRD, comparatively, have worst damage rating weapons than other classes (Even mages). I wouldn't find higher DMG:wDMG from BRD attacks surprising.

  5. #25

    Quote Originally Posted by TacoTaru View Post
    Spell Speed seems to be one of those stats that needs to be weighed in terms of the whole set and not on the piece of alone. 15ms off cast time isn't going to do much on it's own, but maybe with a different setup you're pushing 450~500ms which is going to be half a second off cast time. Since Allagan is listed that means the Coil is being done and yes accuracy is an important stat there. I've never done past Turn 1 personally, but I can't imagine the the 470Acc you need for Turn 1 stays static for every additional turn.
    Pretty sure ~470 is ACC softcap, so there's no reason to go over for anything as of yet.

    And while I agree that, in a perfect scenario, something like Relic probably wins, it's significantly easier to get Vanya than you seem to suggest. A day of CM with accessories that you can break down into the materia you need is all you really need (and getting multiple Quicktongues or some such just makes the process even quicker). Realistically, you'll get a piece of AF2 every 3 weeks on average and can, at most, get 3 pieces of Allagan a week. So that means you're looking at well over a month for full Allagan/AF2 if everything drops as you need it/you don't get Allagan drops after buying AF2 pieces etc.

  6. #26
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    Gouka Mekkyaku
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    Diabolos

    I had Merlinx check BRD v DRG damage to see increase in damage per wDMG since relic+1 improvements seemed weird.

    wDMG: 6
    DRG: 57 (Range: 54 to 59)
    BRD: 73 (Range: 69 to 76)

    wDMG: 41
    DRG: 133 (Range 126 to 139)
    BRD: 159 (Range 151 to 166)

    The parses:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d7a8.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97e.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8c.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8d.jpg

    The pics of his gear for this:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fcc6.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97b.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fb15.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d797.jpg

    He said that STR didn't affect BRD DMG (Makes sense given BRD's primary stat is DEX), so the comparison was DRG STR v BRD DEX.

  7. #27
    Hydra
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    123
    BG Level
    3
    FFXI Server
    Siren

    TacoTaru, I'm going to be working towards Set 3 that you have there. Since spell speed is hardly noticeable, I'm going to focus on crit over it.

  8. #28
    Relic Weapons
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    4
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    Ragnarok

    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    I had Merlinx check BRD v DRG damage to see increase in damage per wDMG since relic+1 improvements seemed weird.

    wDMG: 6
    DRG: 57 (Range: 54 to 59)
    BRD: 73 (Range: 69 to 76)

    wDMG: 41
    DRG: 133 (Range 126 to 139)
    BRD: 159 (Range 151 to 166)

    The parses:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d7a8.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97e.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8c.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8d.jpg

    The pics of his gear for this:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fcc6.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97b.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fb15.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d797.jpg

    He said that STR didn't affect BRD DMG (Makes sense given BRD's primary stat is DEX), so the comparison was DRG STR v BRD DEX.
    Did some testing myself and ended up with identical results. Seems BRD doesn't follow the standard DPS formula then?

  9. #29
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    Gouka Mekkyaku
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    Diabolos

    I would like to see what happens when you pair BRD relic v DPS relic at identical primary/secondary stats to see if they have identical damage. At the very least, BRD seems to gain more damage per wDMG compared to melee. That's why I was wary of people insinuating that BRD relic+1 is a poor upgrade choice. I wouldn't be surprised to hear primary/secondary stats affect DPS equally but that they use different wDMG multipliers.

  10. #30
    Running Hell
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Curly Brace
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    Hyperion

    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    I had Merlinx check BRD v DRG damage to see increase in damage per wDMG since relic+1 improvements seemed weird.

    wDMG: 6
    DRG: 57 (Range: 54 to 59)
    BRD: 73 (Range: 69 to 76)

    wDMG: 41
    DRG: 133 (Range 126 to 139)
    BRD: 159 (Range 151 to 166)

    The parses:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d7a8.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97e.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8c.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fc8d.jpg

    The pics of his gear for this:
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fcc6.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d97b.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...4650c8fb15.jpg
    http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...465184d797.jpg

    He said that STR didn't affect BRD DMG (Makes sense given BRD's primary stat is DEX), so the comparison was DRG STR v BRD DEX.
    You didn't count for BRD's Action Damage trait which increases base action damage by 20%. It's off on the low damage weapons but fits for high damage weapons. Not sure how to explain the low damage discrepancy.

  11. #31
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    Gouka Mekkyaku
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    Diabolos

    Good point regarding the high damage. I'm also unsure why the lesser damage doesn't mirror that. If you use iLV v PlayerLV differences to add a multiplicative penalty (ex: 5 levels less than current level enacts a 0.95 multiplier), you get close to explaining the damage (Multiply by 58/55 and then 1.2), but that's only speculation at this point.

  12. #32
    a p. sweet dude
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    Friend of mine is also sceptical of the damage formula being the same for ranged damage:


  13. #33
    Running Hell
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    Hyperion

    Weaponskill potency should be 180 (150*1.2) for BRD in that formula. Should get average WS Damage of 224.73, which is still off but not so much. Assuming that 242 is the upper limit on your damage, the average should be ~230. Given that the formula Valk uses is more of a guideline and not an exact tool I'd say it's close enough.

  14. #34
    BG Content
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    Slycer Ilerion
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    Excalibur
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    Fenrir

    Working on an update to OP with new IL90(/95) equipment. Will post reply when done.

  15. #35
    BG Content
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    Slycer Ilerion
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    Excalibur
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    Fenrir

    Am I safe to exclude PVP gear? I would think the fact that they only get one non-PVP secondary (since they have morale) would eliminate them from contention for BIS outside of PVP, and clearly once you add materia they are best in slot for PVP at IL90.

  16. #36
    Old Odin
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    Seravi Edalborez
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    Titan

    In some cases it's worth consideration (Direwolf Thighboots of Healing). Just from healer PoV the vast majority of it is inferior though.

  17. #37
    Running Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slycer View Post
    Am I safe to exclude PVP gear? I would think the fact that they only get one non-PVP secondary (since they have morale) would eliminate them from contention for BIS outside of PVP, and clearly once you add materia they are best in slot for PVP at IL90.
    I would include them, just based on the fact that a lot of secondary stats are pretty pitiful or downright worthless for some jobs. Good example would be Direwolf Boots of Healing having decent Crit on them for SCH compared to the Piety and Spellspeed of Allagan/Argute. As far as I'm aware SCH isn't exactly hurting for MP with Aetherflow spam and potential ballad so those would potentially be new BiS for feet. I'd have to browse through everything to compare but I'm sure there are more.

    Edit: Beaten

  18. #38
    BG Content
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    Slycer Ilerion
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    Fenrir

    Screwing around with Google Docs as it'll be easier to update, check this and see if format is OK or let me know if I should do something else before I work on the other jobs:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&output=html

  19. #39
    Running Hell
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    Assuming you plan on adding a column for Acc on other jobs, the only other thing I would suggest is nixing the AA and Delay columns for weapons. For all jobs besides PLD using Sword Oath the AA values and weapon delay are arbitrary since all auto-attacks normalize to 83.33 potency per GCD and you could just use the WD from that point. Other than that looks good.

  20. #40
    a p. sweet dude
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    Holy Shield +1/Allagan Round Shield is still the best, but Onion and Direwolf are within half a percentage so use whichever you like the look of (or stats on) best.