1. FFXIV Reset Timers
    Last daily reset was 1 hours, 7 minutes ago / Next daily reset is in 22 hours, 52 minutes
    Last weekly reset was 5 days, 18 hours, 7 minutes ago / Next weekly reset is in 15 hours, 52 minutes
+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 149
  1. #81
    Relic Weapons
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    382
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Xalien Shadowstar
    FFXIV Server
    Excalibur
    FFXI Server
    Leviathan

    I guess if you're going with determination build sure. Lots of WHM seem to be horrified of crit for some reason.
    Can't deny that determination provides a reliable boost to all heals though.

    I have Thyrus Zenith atm and Omnirod is burning my eyes. I can't really say that I NEED the damn thing but I guess I want to collect all the weapons I can use. Should I grab it or just get my other classes their weapons since Zenith is done and it glows and its purty? :3

  2. #82
    Chram
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    2,792
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Xerlic Jilrak
    FFXIV Server
    Hyperion
    FFXI Server
    Titan

    Unlike SCH, we don't get a benefit when we get a crit and overcure. At least, that's why I prefer a DET build over CRIT.

    I wouldn't bother with Omnirod if you already have Thyrus Zenith, but if you've been clearing the 3 Extremes every week, you're probably going to be running out of weapons to collect very soon.

  3. #83
    Dragoon Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,094
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Dathus Tomar
    FFXIV Server
    Diabolos
    FFXI Server
    Siren

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratatapa View Post
    For new BIS would you agree that

    Inferno bangles > Hero's Bracelet
    and for ring

    Vortex + allagan?
    I was thinking that, which is gonna help with my Myth spending, really. Though makes me sad my Hero's ring of Healing was an epic waste in the end.

  4. #84
    Relic Shield
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1,664
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Issah Grimes
    FFXIV Server
    Balmung
    FFXI Server
    Phoenix

    yeah As whm dont really need all Myth Accessories (ring / bracelet / wrist) can just use Primals for Det. & Spell Speed. Still need to get an allagan ring / and body to finish up except it appears neither of these exist for my group. Royal Robe indefinitely.

  5. #85
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    I'm starting to think that the theory that Crit is bad on WHM is a bit exaggerated.

    The basic gist of the theory is that an overheal due to a Crit as you're topping someone off is basically wasting a stat. You would have been better off if you had made that same cast with Spell Speed instead, since it's effects would carry on after the cast. DET can actually suffer the same effects if your heals become so massive that your top-off cures frequently over-shoot the mark. Now, in the case of DET, you might simply be able to delay your top-off a little longer since you expect your heal to do more, but if your tank actually needs topped off, then chances are, delaying it isn't wise.

    Consider the flip-side of the situation, however. Lets say your tank is taking massive hits that have you scrambling to catch back up (like a no-feed Cad, or a 3 stack Titan EX, or a double WW on Garuda EX, etc). Now when you hit a Crit heal, you basically just bought yourself a free GCD that you can use to sneak in a Regen, or to cure another party member that took an earlier hit that you weren't able to get around to.

    What I'm currently working through in my head is whether the perks of clutch crits are worth sacrificing the optimization. What I'm thinking now is that a clutch Crit will have higher subjective value than the loss of efficiency from over-healing. After all, clutch Crits are going to happen at important moments in fights, and might mean the difference between a win and a loss. How often do you really think a Crit over-heal will be the reason I lose a fight?

    Spell Speed, however, is never wasted. No matter what you cure for, Spell Speed will always get you to your next spell faster, which is always beneficial to a WHM. Mostly, my argument is in regards to Crit vs DET as a secondary stat.

    So what do you guys think? Could there be a case for gearing for the "Important" heals over optimizing the rest of them? Could it be viable to go SplSpd > Crit > Det?

    What brought on this line of thought is that, through bad luck and a shitty work schedule, I basically had no chance at Coil drops for my WHM, and so I decked out my WHM in Myth gear, including all of the Accessories. I'm ilvl89 right now, with my only sub-90 piece being CT body, and everything else being Myth, and the Vortex Ring from Garuda. At first, I despaired at getting the Hero's accessories because of the stigma against Crit on WHM. As I've been playing, however, I haven't felt this loss in efficiency what-so-ever, and the crit heals have been absolutely amazing.

  6. #86
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,254
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    Unless you're guaranteed to crit when such situations occur (NOPE), you're not making a case for critical hit sets. Your best option is to gear for speed and higher average cure value. If two sets provide equal cure power, consistency becomes priority (i.e. DET over CRIT when available).

  7. #87
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    Unless you're guaranteed to crit when such situations occur (NOPE), you're not making a case for critical hit sets. Your best option is to gear for speed and higher average cure value. If two sets provide equal cure power, consistency becomes priority (i.e. DET over CRIT when available).
    You're just restating the theory.

    Besides that, a thing doesn't have to be guaranteed to have value. We can factor in probability values less than 1.0.

    I'm not formally educated in math or statistics, but let me try to put it more formally.

    The question at hand is the difference between the Cost of Over-heal Crits (X) vs the Benefit of Clutch Crits (Y). The difficulty in the question is that Y has more subjective qualities (or at least, more complex ones) in that a Clutch Crit has a larger immediate impact on the fight whereas the cost of Over-heal Crits might not be felt at all. On paper, Det vs Crit is no contest since wasted stats are obviously worse than non-wasted stats.

    I would compare it to buying a Gun. In all probability, you will likely never actually need it for self defense. Most likely, that money would have been better off invested into something more immediately useful to you. If your house gets broken into one night, however, and having that gun increases your chances of saving yourself or your property, then what is that really worth? Similar to Crit Chance, it isn't guaranteed to save you, but it does increase the odds. The analogy isn't perfect, obviously. The probabilities and values of the situations are disproportionate, but the point of an analogy is to draw attention to the points, those being: Could it be worth sacrificing some of your baseline value to achieve higher highs?

  8. #88
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    I thought of another way to put it (the more ways the better, if it means that one of them allows someone to understand what I'm saying, if they didn't already):

    Healing spikes may be wasted some of the time, but when they aren't, they tend to make a large impact. I feel that the cost of these spikes isn't high enough to offset the times when they matter. It's less about efficiency and more about the situation. I'm hardly ever so strapped for MP that stats lost from over-healing will make any difference, but I'm more often in a situation where a crit-heal can ease my burden, or even potentially save the run.

  9. #89
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,254
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    I'm not restating the theory; I'm emphatically rejecting that line of reasoning. All you have said is "Critical cures are nice when they gain their full benefits and here are some examples of when they gain their full benefit." That's not very telling or convincing because it's obvious that critical hit cures are nice when you gain their full benefit. That seems to be where your argument stops and that is why your decision to choose CRIT over DET, when both grant the same average cure, is confusing. It is not as if DET ceases to affect your cures during these cases either. When you choose CRIT, you're simultaneously reducing your baseline cure which means any scenario where you do not critical cure, you're simultaneously curing them for less as well.

  10. #90
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    I'm not restating the theory; I'm emphatically rejecting that line of reasoning. All you have said is "Critical cures are nice when they gain their full benefits and here are some examples of when they gain their full benefit." That's not very telling or convincing because it's obvious that critical hit cures are nice when you gain their full benefit. That seems to be where your argument stops and that is why your decision to choose CRIT over DET, when both grant the same average cure, is confusing. It is not as if DET ceases to affect your cures during these cases either. When you choose CRIT, you're simultaneously reducing your baseline cure which means any scenario where you do not critical cure, you're simultaneously curing them for less as well.
    I'm trying to put more emphasis on the scenario. When I need a Crit Cure, then I REALLY need a Crit cure. When I don't need a Crit Cure, then I don't particularly need a DET Cure either. In any situation where I actually care about how much I Cure for (within reason), a Crit Cure will alleviate more pressure than a DET Cure. At any other time, it doesn't matter that I'm sacrificing from my baseline because the heals aren't a determining factor at that point.

    A no-feed Caduceus is a prime example. Once that thing is rocking 3-4+ stacks, assuming your tank isn't utterly pimped out, both healers have to be almost constantly bombarding both tanks with Cures, most of the time trying to catch up. During that spam-fest, he's still regorging you and the DPS, who WILL eventually need to be healed. In that situation, and similar ones (only got to do T4 once, but it seemed to be very similar), you/re very hard-pressed to spare any GCDs UNLESS you Crit heal to top off your tank for a couple seconds. I'm positing that gearing for the important moments like this might be better than gearing for your overall Heals since, most of the time, your efficiency won't matter.

    Also, it wasn't my initial decision to go CRIT over DET. I picked up the Hero's accessories because I don't get in to Coil as much as I'd like, and healer gear never seems to drop when I do (or I'm needed on PLD or BLM instead). I'm not trying to justify my build, as I had no choice in the matter. It's more like, once I got the pieces, I saw the benefits of them from a different perspective. I'm not trying to push a build, I'm trying to push a paradigm. I'm suggesting that the situational and unique benefits of Crit may potentially outweigh that of DET, even if it lowers your overall healing output and Heal/MP.

  11. #91
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,254
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    I would agree with your argument if you accurately depicted the situation, but I think you're misrepresenting the effect of efficiency and critical cures. In more cases, I've seen WHM MP problems than I have wipes resulting from lack of critical hit cures. You say turn 4 is a case for critical hit cures, but I don't see why. MP efficiency becomes more prevalent because of holy spam and managing raid cures. You say that heals are not the determining factor during WW2x, 3x Stack Titan, and a no feed Cad, but I think you're overemphasizing the healing strain during these fights because I never find these cases become "Critical hit cure or wipe" scenarios. That's all I have to say about your reasoning on this matter.

    I will agree with your conclusion, however, on the basis that the relative cure gains from DET are shit based on Valk's calculator. Assuming that is correct, 100 points in either direction seems to be a difference of 60 HP. I'm not sure people can afford to claim MP efficiency on that alone.

  12. #92
    WASTE OF CURRENCY
    I CAN'T I CAN'T I CAN'T

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,975
    BG Level
    8
    FFXIV Character
    Izzy Izumi
    FFXIV Server
    Sargatanas
    FFXI Server
    Phoenix
    WoW Realm
    Arthas

    In the history of MMOs, healers have always leaned toward what's guaranteed to keep the person you're healing alive.

    "Sorry you died, Tank, but I didn't crit." is unacceptable. Overhealing with your crits is worthless, and you can't possibly predict when you're going to crit in a situation when you actually need it. Some games have cooldowns/etc that allow you to crit on demand, but this game doesn't and you can't depend on RNG to kick in right after that death sentence to save your ass. You need to be healing for the highest guaranteed value you can get.

  13. #93
    Old Odin
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    6,064
    BG Level
    8
    FFXIV Character
    Seravi Edalborez
    FFXIV Server
    Hyperion
    FFXI Server
    Titan

    Head/Body/Feet don't have a crit option for WHM, Hands/Belt don't have a Det option. Assuming Myth Belt/Legs/Feet and Allagan Head/Body/Hands (and Allagan Ring1 unless someone wants to debate Vortex vs Allagan, or using the Speed alternatives for any slots): difference between det and crit spec would just be 4 accessories.

    Allagan Neck/Ear, Primal Wrist/Ring2:
    PIE 28, Det 41, Speed 11

    Myth Neck/Ear/Wrist/Ring2:
    PIE 40, Crit 54

    How much is 41 det worth in actual healing?

    edit: Scholar argument but since det-spec Allagan doesn't exist for me; base healing (that is, crit-spec base) is enough. I never have to "rely" on crits for people to not bite it. They just save me a second doing another heal usually. Not even talking about Adlo, just Physick. I have viewed crit Cure1 as essentially a Freecure proc, sort of.

  14. #94
    An exploitable mess of a card game
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    13,254
    BG Level
    9
    FFXIV Character
    Gouka Mekkyaku
    FFXIV Server
    Gilgamesh
    FFXI Server
    Diabolos

    The difference is like 20 HP/4% Crit according to Valk's calculator. This will only matter if you're constantly trying to catchup on cures.

  15. #95
    Relic Shield
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1,664
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Issah Grimes
    FFXIV Server
    Balmung
    FFXI Server
    Phoenix

    Hoping for a crit is stupid, You're better off having a good Spell Speed / Determination build you can spam cap peoples HP easily with cure 2 / 111 spam. Generally you wont be playing catch up you can negate most damage taken by just throwing out the cures as the damage comes in and finish caping with cure 1's I originally thought a mix of crit / det would be nice but it ends up being a waste. Id much rather cure for a guaranteed 1k + cure 1 and be able to cure every 1.7 seconds.

  16. #96
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    I'm so bad at presenting arguments. I hurt my case by overstating the "clutch raid-saving Cure" scenario when that's not really relevant to the build. Mostly what I have in mind are the times when you're spamming heals and catch a nice crit that alleviates the pressure and allows you to give attention to something you couldn't get to before, such as curing the non-tanks.

    Also, given my lack of experience with T4, I shouldn't have even mentioned it. The minimal difference between the builds doesn't really help me either, lol. Perhaps the answer will become more clear as potential stat differences increase, and people can experience them when they're actually noticeable.

  17. #97
    The Optimistic Asshole
    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    22,864
    BG Level
    10
    FFXIV Character
    Tyche Six
    FFXIV Server
    Tonberry

    You're right in that the people saying that crit is "bad" are overstating it. Or they're partying with bad tanks. Or they're bad at their job. Overcuring, even as a +enmity hit, should never be enough to pull hate. In any situation. Unless people are eating way too much shit, which again means you're partying with baddies. It's WHM, it's skill based. Secondary stats matter little. Spec for what you want. Spec for fancy.

  18. #98
    Chram
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    2,792
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Xerlic Jilrak
    FFXIV Server
    Hyperion
    FFXI Server
    Titan

    Are you trying to crit build for WHM cos you think this is ideal or are you basically just trying to find justification for using Hero's Accessories over Coil accessories? Either way, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you can't do coil for whatever reason, I wouldn't feel bad about using Hero's/Primals. Like Tyche said, the secondary stats aren't going to make or break you.

    There are also other factors to consider in these situations that you're spamming cure on a tank and are relying on a crit to find time to cure a DPS. How well geared/skilled is your tank that he's taking so much damage? How well geared/skilled are your DPS that Caduceus is taking so long to kill? Are people taking damage that can be avoided? etc.

  19. #99
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlic View Post
    Are you trying to crit build for WHM cos you think this is ideal or are you basically just trying to find justification for using Hero's Accessories over Coil accessories? Either way, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you can't do coil for whatever reason, I wouldn't feel bad about using Hero's/Primals. Like Tyche said, the secondary stats aren't going to make or break you.

    There are also other factors to consider in these situations that you're spamming cure on a tank and are relying on a crit to find time to cure a DPS. How well geared/skilled is your tank that he's taking so much damage? How well geared/skilled are your DPS that Caduceus is taking so long to kill? Are people taking damage that can be avoided? etc.
    I got stuck with buying the Hero's because I don't get to attend Coil very often on my WHM, and when I do, it's in PUGs. I would have never thought twice about it except that I was pleasantly surprised by the effects of the Crit heals. Before I starting filling in my accessories, I had almost no bonus Crit, and so, only rarely saw them occur. I notice them a lot more since I finished, and they seem to be making things easier for me. That was the entire inspiration for this line of thought, but once my brain got a hold of it, it just ran with it and I started wondering if it might be worth giving up some from my baseline to give me those periodic spikes that I've been enjoying so much. Unfortunately, I was very sloppy in filling in my presentation of the idea.

    The reason Cad is going down slow, and the tanks are getting wailed on is largely because I'm forced to run with PUGs since my schedule prevents me from making most of my FC runs. But then, Cad isn't exactly gentle even against a well-geared and competent tank, once he's up to 3-4 Stacks toward the end of the fight.

    Of course, even rocking the Crit accessories, my Cure1s range from 990-1050 with Crits around 1490-1540. Cure2s are around 1620-1710 with Crits around 2440-2470. So the MND alone is giving me baselines high enough to handle any content, so maybe it really doesn't matter at this point in the game...

  20. #100

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvrdragon View Post
    MND alone is giving me baselines high enough to handle any content, so maybe it really doesn't matter at this point in the game...
    Exactly. All the rest is pointless bickering.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • Decrease Size
    Increase Size
  • Remove Text Formatting
  • Insert Link Insert Image Insert Video
  • Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
  • Insert NSFW Tag
  • Insert Spoiler Tag