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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salodin View Post
    Yeah ok, Kael'thas is great. His D ability is redonk.
    Suddenly living bomb everywhere, EVERYWHERE!

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    He's completely fucking ridiculous, Blizzard are dreadful at balance too so it'll probably be months before he even sees a nerf. Really fun kit but he does about 5x more damage than he probably should do, especially since he has easy to hit hard CC on a potentially low as fuck cooldown past level 13. Every match today has just been hard CC out the ass, fucking Kael'thas, ETC, Diablo, Anub'arak and Uther in every game, just kill me.

    Speaking of Anub'arak, he finally feels not completely trash without a really competent team backing you up, bug AI is still shaky as shit but I don't feel bad about picking him any more even without friends picking high damage shit like Jaina. Best part of the patch is the UI/QoL changes though, debuffs and stuff are actually fucking visible now, shit's a thousand times better.

  3. #163
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    Its all about the rape, kaels my new... killing machine >.> Just sit back and lob them bombs
    Its like a ranged venom that spreads all over like sylvanis dagger, its hilarious. Makes you think twice about doing a 5vs5 now sort of. The main thing that makes it deadly near anything else is that it can catch onto someone many many times.

    Lets say theirs 3 people
    Flame strike (1 bomb) -> your own cast living bomb (2) -> exploded previous living bomb (3) -> others previous bomb explode from spreading, and then spread back to previous target(4) -> yours explodes -> spreads back (it looks like it does this, I've seen tanks drop 60-80% hp in like a second or 2 in massive living bomb damage chunks). I think its the first hero I've seen reach into the 100,000's range for damage (averaging about 80K by lv 20)

    Pyro's a nice scare tactic (fun seeing mounted people try to get away from it all over the map haha), phoenix is kind of underwhelming, and living bomb is /holyshitrapeverywhere

    Random sadness point, kael burns mana like a mofo, I pretty much jsut verdant my living bombs and only use flamestrike when I get the living bomb to flamestrike buff (or you just need to bomb the shit outa someone badly) its almsot as bad as nova using 3 abilities and dropping 30% mana

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    I think the cooldown reducing living bomb is the most broken shit in the world, don't like the idea of taking spreading bombs over it at all, especially if you take Ignite at 16. That said the insane amount of spells you can throw out really does just dumpster your MP so I think taking him a number of different ways works pretty well. I love his design and kit and hate to make kneejerk responses but he needs some serious nerfs and fast imo, dude is just way too strong and then they thought it was a good idea to give him a long lasting ranged stun.

    Also Gazlowe is... surprisingly decent now imo, I loved him before these changes and was kinda confused as to what the fuck the purpose of the changes was from reading the patch notes but he feels really solid now, especially on the maps he was already usable on. The rate at which he can throw out fully charged laser beams now is ridic. Still far from high tier because he has no chase whatsoever but definitely not the trash tier hero he was before.

  5. #165
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    I don't really see myself with a lot of stuff on kael, if not seemingly waiting for a skill to come up so i can actually dps.

    The Lv13 and Lv16 skills is what makes kael deadly, and its not really kael tossing bombs everywhere, its just 1 bomb turning into many, all over the place because people tend to freak out when they take damage (and usually run to their group) making it that much worse, kaels a great "anti group orgy gang rape 5vs5" class... at lv 13+ anyway, before then its a mana stared meh class (although that tornado can really fuck you up if its team vs team at Lv 4+ with the long range tornado.

    Kinda was hoping pyro do more damage considering its short range also haha, I tend to get pwned using it unless I'm hiding in the bushes and get one launched off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    Blizzard are dreadful at balance
    Illidain untouched, double healing untouched, creating passives like Sylvanas, Living Bomb, Blizzard doesn't know what counterplay is but nerfing Abathur's backdoor is apperently ok lol (not completely against them nerfing that but nerfing the talent was just unnecessary while leaving stuff like Illidain ok means they don't know what counterplay is).

    As for Kael'y

    Looking at him and trying him out real quick in practice with Pyromaniac (reduce cooldowns on Living Bomb tics) and Ignite (Living Bomb on targets hit by Q) abilities:

    D --> W (wait for explosion) --> W --> E --> Q --> D (wait last second for W) --> W

    I assume this is one of the better combos though it isn't as quick because it takes 5-6 seconds to fully do.



    I found out they reduce the price after sometime (not exactly sure how long) so I will wait to get him. 5k is a lot of gold to get so I rather wait. Let's me get essentially two 10k's in 3k more gold.

  7. #167
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    Well in a fight, 5-6 seconds of waiting can be... really deadly, if anything, most fighting will be decided within 3 seconds, especially if its 5vs5 usually, people start dying off fast. With kael he changes the tides on that if you don't focus him down. With living bomb spreading around like crazy people start dying, its pretty much a counter to any form of healing, unless there is like a 3-4+ level gap (and before Lv 16). Kael is sort of crappy until Lv 13 and 16 talents, not even a threat really unless your teams overpowering, that stun tornado can pick people off.

    The flamestrike and living bomb chaining combo is about 2-3 seconds seconds.

    Lets say lv 16
    Powered flamestrike for about 750 -> Applies Bomb which does an instant 500-600 -> you apply another living bomb as soon as possible -> another 500-600
    if anything is near that person, within 2 seconds or so, they will get another application of living bomb for 500-600 (if anything died near that person from the previous 2 living bomb explotions, it will instantly reapply living bomb, also setting off the primary targets living bomb causing more damage, while reapplying AGAIN another living bomb aoe), your looking at 2,000+ damage from a single person within 2-3 seconds. SO if your playing kael, you'll know why people basically suicide themselves just to kill you, I've even had a nova chase me down just to try to kill me while my team is hammering at them hard haha

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    With Kael, positioning is such an important factor. If you're tunneled and have tanks up front with Kael in the back, you retreat until you can get a better angle on him. He is always priority number 1 after he gets Ignite, that ability is ridiculous. I haven't had much problem fighting him, he really has no survivability, but he just can't be ignored whatsoever in a team fight. He's a more extreme version of Jaina. If at all possible I try to just avoid 5v5 all together, and just poke from afar until catching some one out of position.

    I really don't like Diablo any more. You have to give up so many damage talents in order to get less HP/regen than you did before, so you either become a shittier version of pre-patch diablo, or you give up survivability/longevity in exchange for more damage; however that damage still doesn't compare to many other characters so what's the point? Just pick the characters better suited to damage, and pick a better tank. He has a lot of potential with overpower and increased knockback from charge (if you get the talents), but you need an on-point team for that and frankly with out a permateam he's kinda done imo. The worst part is Blizzard said on reddit that his changes weren't balance changes, they were design changes. That just pisses me the fuck off when he was such a solid character before.

    Illidan is fine as is imo, high damage shitty hp. The problem is his lack of diversity, the same talents are always picked, always. You might change it up here and there, but you approach each situation the same. He's just lacks diversity in builds, and I think he's boring because of it =\.

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    The point of the living bomb CD trait isn't to combo one person, the effect stacks on multiple targets so simply using your passive to Living Bomb 2 people takes 6 seconds off your cooldowns, nailing 3 people with a traited Flamestrike can tag 3 people which takes 9 seconds off your cooldown within 3 seconds. It essentially throws all your cooldowns out the window constantly during any sort of engagement and is ridiculously strong, running out of mana is pretty much the only thing that stops you throwing out dumb amounts of damage and CC at people. Even if it was just damage it would be crazy, but the fact you can actually reasonably throw out your 1.5s stun every 5 seconds is... ridiculous honestly.

    Also Illidan has anything but shitty HP, he's one of the easiest and most forgiving characters to play in the game unless you trait horribly. Unfortunately most Illidan players tend to be complete morons which means his win rate isn't as high as it should be, so Blizzard won't do anything about him. If you look at his pick rate and win rate in high MMR HL it'd be a different story.

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    I don't have a problem with him, I'm assuming you have numbers to show his win rate in high MMR matches? lol

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    Considering only Blizzard has those numbers and has never published any, obviously not (they did mention recently that hes been climbing in win rate and is the highest melee win rate, but is still in their "comfort zone" currently). But if you pay any attention to shit like HotD or high level matches it's pretty glaringly obvious. Shit, for the finals of HotD Illidan was picked in all 5 games, and the team that picked him won every time. Put him in any remotely decent team comp (especially with a decent support) and he's an unstoppable rape train. Speaking of unstoppable... that's probably one of his biggest fucking problems, there's almost zero counterplay to some moron Illidan jumping on you because his Q and W both make him completely immune to CC for no justifiable reason. No resource to worry about, free sustain from passive, tons of extra sustain and survivability from talents (evasion shield/ability DR, first aid, lots of free health just from Meta which also doubles as yet another mobility option and then B4B...), no skill shots, damn near unpeelable, probably the best chase in the game. He's not the only hero that is far more overtuned than they should be (Jaina, Sylvanas and Tassadar are pretty stupid right now too, with a few others cutting it close), but he's definitely up there as a pretty prime example of "what the fuck were they thinking?". I fully expect Kael to just shit on peoples day once people get acclimated to him too, because his kit is completely fucking ridiculous too. "What does this extremely high damage burst mage need? How about one of the longest hard CCs in the game?". Luckily the next patch isn't as big a gap as the Sylvanas patch was til now, maybe they'll tone him down when they release Johannes (who also feels like she's gonna be a contender for top tier just looking at her unfinished kit and numbers, the power creep is real).

  12. #172
    Hackey Thread Lurker since 2010
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    So considering how large the damage ramp is on the bursty assassins, why do I have this feeling that they may bake in some sort of passive damage resistance to all warriors, at least from abilities. I know they could just bump the numbers for raw hp but then supports are less effective. I know hardened shield @ 20 was a step in the right direction, but who the hell focuses a warrior unless they are out solo and out of position. This is reminding me of Diablo 3 again and how all melee classes have passive 30% damage reduction (and they still get rekt at high enough levels)

    Maybe Uther and Tyreal with their Invul.... wait why bother. More stuns. I remember I got yelled at for getting Divine shield once over Divine Storm. Game is still far from being balanced. I can't stand Quick Match because of the lack of balance in that mode. But I shouldn't complain much because this is supposed to be the casual MOBA.

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    As long as supports are as strong as they are I don't think they really can tone down the damage in this game, which is fucking awful in my opinion but a necessary evil. In an ideal world I'd like to see them tone down supports in a huge way and then lower burst damage across the board at the same time. It's way too easy to save people from silly amounts of shit as a support, especially if that person happens to be someone who isn't just a complete glass cannon as is (warriors, assassins like Illidan/Tychus/Raynor with first aid and evasion and the like). At the very least I'd just like to see the double support meta rot because playing against shit like BW/Rehgar + Tassadar is soul crushing if you ever get a level or two behind.

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    I will agree with the burst healing ala Brightwing or Rehgar. That shit is stupid.

    Also I may have DotA blinders on which may distort my perceptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    Considering only Blizzard has those numbers and has never published any, obviously not (they did mention recently that hes been climbing in win rate and is the highest melee win rate, but is still in their "comfort zone" currently). But if you pay any attention to shit like HotD or high level matches it's pretty glaringly obvious. Shit, for the finals of HotD Illidan was picked in all 5 games, and the team that picked him won every time. Put him in any remotely decent team comp (especially with a decent support) and he's an unstoppable rape train. Speaking of unstoppable... that's probably one of his biggest fucking problems, there's almost zero counterplay to some moron Illidan jumping on you because his Q and W both make him completely immune to CC for no justifiable reason. No resource to worry about, free sustain from passive, tons of extra sustain and survivability from talents (evasion shield/ability DR, first aid, lots of free health just from Meta which also doubles as yet another mobility option and then B4B...), no skill shots, damn near unpeelable, probably the best chase in the game. He's not the only hero that is far more overtuned than they should be (Jaina, Sylvanas and Tassadar are pretty stupid right now too, with a few others cutting it close), but he's definitely up there as a pretty prime example of "what the fuck were they thinking?". I fully expect Kael to just shit on peoples day once people get acclimated to him too, because his kit is completely fucking ridiculous too. "What does this extremely high damage burst mage need? How about one of the longest hard CCs in the game?". Luckily the next patch isn't as big a gap as the Sylvanas patch was til now, maybe they'll tone him down when they release Johannes (who also feels like she's gonna be a contender for top tier just looking at her unfinished kit and numbers, the power creep is real).

    https://www.hotslogs.com/Sitewide/HeroDetails


    ...?


    That, it somewhat tracks games (few hundred/thousand players)

    Also, I need to try an experiment sometime on ignite to see what happens... really curious if it works like how slyvanis exploding minions talent works with ignite, if so... it could be hilarious effects! O_o

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    Hotslogs is apparently wildly inaccurate (I recall someone from Blizz saying they compared the top 100 from their internal stats to Hotslogs leaderboards and less than 20 of the people on Hotslogs were actually in the top 100 by Blizz's records), but yeah, even on there if you check Illidan win rate last week in master ranked games its between 60-70% which is fucking insane, Diamond is all over the place but still typically ends up at around 55%-60% at the end of the week. Also yes:

    Though its hard to tell if its Ignite doing it or if its living bomb being spread and then Flamestrike killing them all to trigger the explosions.

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    In no way is Illidain fine as is nor is using win rate as the only reasoning for when someone is toxic (course those who saw the tourney with the Illidain as mentioned know about it as well). Assassins should not be that tanky that sustainable that spammable with no resource bar that can also heal. I often play with a friend who mains him and he can initiate and soak the damage because of his evasion ability then ult + first aid when low while we go to town on them. Not to mention 1v1ing him is fairly difficult than any other character.

    When Illidain was free I had zero fear when using him. I knew nothing could stop me on their own and if they were injured I could 1v2 np. Didn't matter what they were either really unless it was a Lili, one of the only people to give him a hard time minus maybe Lost Vikings if together.

    I made this post a while back on the forum when Abathur got nerfed this patched (the spike damage increase was minor, though necessary).

    Simply going by win rate by Blizzard is not a good indicator of what is balanced or not as some other MOBAs have done (Dota 2, League, etc.) or other PVP games. Things can be toxic in nature in some form without much counter play but still not have an insane win rate. The most common one as of late from players is Illidan. I certainly hope that Blizzard does not solely depend on win rate because that will cause ineffective balancing in the future when the game is released in June.

    Edit: I hope the Abathur backdoor thing they plan to fix will be their first step with it. Abathur hasn't been the top win rate yet this backdoor is being nerfed (which sadly will affect that upgrade of the ranged shot in general). They mention lack of counterplay even though you can see the mine being dropped and preemptively prepare for him and remove him from the battle which I have done multiple times.

    Not that I am against them nerfing this, it goes to show they are nerfing something like this on a lower win rate character but seem to have issues with nerfing the double healing meta, Illidan, allowing passives of such strength like Sylvanas (and Illidan) to exist while others are fairly lackluster, seems to show Blizzard is a little confused in balancing beyond win rate as their only form of reasoning. There is little counterplay to, example, Illidan without a team effort (requiring a team to beat one character most of the time because of his passive and dodge duration shows lack of counterplay, something they seemed to say about Abathur's backdoor but seem ok with this?). The same can be said about the double healing meta.

    Again, let us hope Blizzard has realized to look more into beyond win rate after this Abathur nerf on the ranged talent.

  18. #178

    his kit is great but all of his unstoppable frames need to be removed

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazzyphizzle View Post
    his kit is great but all of his unstoppable frames need to be removed
    There are several ways they can consider balancing him. Giving him a resource bar, nerfing the passive, making his evasion ability have a cap on how much he can dodge, removing unstoppable frames, making his ult have a channel time and not be untargetable during (while people like Chen's require channeling) etc. Not that it has to be all of those, but is evasion ability really should have a cap on how much he can evade during the duration if anything at all with a higher cd if his passive is to remain the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiarax View Post
    Hotslogs is apparently wildly inaccurate (I recall someone from Blizz saying they compared the top 100 from their internal stats to Hotslogs leaderboards and less than 20 of the people on Hotslogs were actually in the top 100 by Blizz's records), but yeah, even on there if you check Illidan win rate last week in master ranked games its between 60-70% which is fucking insane, Diamond is all over the place but still typically ends up at around 55%-60% at the end of the week. Also yes:

    Though its hard to tell if its Ignite doing it or if its living bomb being spread and then Flamestrike killing them all to trigger the explosions.
    Its the living bomb, although a bit confusing, its how I explained it earlier

    Basically what happened in the video is....!

    Living bomb on hammer -> living bomb set off by flame strike -> living bomb spread to minions set off by flame strike -> 7? minions with living bomb die instantly from flame strike -> actually they all just explode, and for about 200-300 each, think they ninja changed living bomb recently so it can't spread back to its initial target, still deadly -> hammer dies instantly. I do it a lot during games to kill people trying to hide behind mercs+minions, most people don't do that anymore when they see a kael in the same game haha

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