Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Byrthnoth]

It affected all jumps on the test server. That's how Martel and I did all the Ryunohige / Jump(s) testing.

[dasva]

Yeah, it is +30%.

Spoiler: show

KJ - 50% STR, 3~3.5 fTP (+extra attacks)*1.3
Upheaval - 100% VIT, 4~5 fTP (+extra attacks)

Assuming a 40% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, and Mythic OA2-3 with 300 TP:
KJ - (3.5+.84 + .2 + .2)*1.3 = 6.162 fTP
Up - (5 + .84 + .2 + .2) = 6.24 fTP

Assuming a 40% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, with 300 TP (but not starting with AM2-3):
KJ - (3.5+.84 + .2 + .2)*1.3 = 6.162 fTP
Up - (5 + .2 + .2 + .2) = 5.6 fTP

So if you have 300TP and no AM2-3, using KJ isn't going to be that much of a sacrifice (10% more fTP, loses 50% stat mod but base damage is huge) and you're probably going to make it back with the OA2-3 even if what you're fighting only lives a few more attack rounds. If you're using a wing and already have OA2-3, you should use Upheaval.


At 100TP with AM2-3:
KJ - (3+.84+.2+.2)*1.3 = 5.512
Up - (4+.84+.2+.2) = 5.24

So KJ would effectively have 5% more fTP, and is missing out on 50% modifier. It would almost certainly be better to use Upheaval.

I am sure these conclusions surprise no one, but there it is. Everything was assumed in KJ's favor for the 100TP case. I am also assuming that our KJ WS testing is accurate, which is kind of a substantial assumption because essentially every Mythic WS that has been re-tested has found something wrong. Mystic Boon, Stringing Pummel, Pyrrhic Kleos, Garland of Bliss, Primal Rend, etc. We did some really shitty testing on those WSs. The only ones that are still considered to be accurate are the ones that haven't been retested afaik.

Well not sp2 which was kinda the context I was bring up going off the 8 hit upheaval thing. Forgot that most of those were innaccurate though

[Byrthnoth]

With SP2, assuming Mythic can still proc in front:

Spoiler: show

Assuming a 100% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, and Mythic OA2-3 with 300 TP:
KJ - (3.5+1.2 + 1 + .2)*1.3 = 7.67 fTP
Up - (5 + 1.2 + 1 + .2) = 7.4 fTP

Assuming a 100% DA rate, WS Belt/Gorget, with 300 TP (but not starting with AM2-3):
KJ - (3.5+1.2 + 1 + .2)*1.3 = 7.67 fTP
Up - (5 + 1 + 1 + .2) = 7.2 fTP

At 100TP with AM2-3:
KJ - (3+1.2+1+.2)*1.3 = 7.02
Up - (4+1.2+1+.2) = 6.4

Conclusions are essentially unchanged.

[CDF]

This math implies mythic aftermath can proc only once on WS. (This has been shown right? Also I didn't see anything on aftermath multi-hit going before normal multi-hit yet but I regard this to be true.) Then it's not possible to get 8-hit Upheaval without non-mythic aftermath source of TA.

4+2+1 (4 normal hits + TA from aftermath + DA)

[Outlaw]

I didn't even see the post about the SP2 abilities. RNG one is going to be fun especially if it stacks with Sylvan piece.

[Spira]

i'm thinking it might be Odyllic Subter?

Odyllic Subterfuge

SO CLOSE!
technically i got it since Fuge was not part of the japanese name.

[Byrthnoth]

This math implies mythic aftermath can proc only once on WS. (This has been shown right? Also I didn't see anything on aftermath multi-hit going before normal multi-hit yet but I regard this to be true.) Then it's not possible to get 8-hit Upheaval without non-mythic aftermath source of TA.

4+2+1 (4 normal hits + TA from aftermath + DA)

Yeah, it has been my experience that it can only proc once per WS and it can proc on the activation WS with Pyrrhic Kleos.

I believe Kirschy showed these things more formally by using Insurgency on crabs a lot on DRK/SAM without DA gear and never going over 6 hits. With a 40% DA/20% TA rate, she should have had an 8% chance of seeing a 7~8 hit Insurgency and iirc she states that she did about 40 WSs without seeing one in that thread.

[Hitou]

I'm pretty sure they mentioned shortly after the BLU SP2 came out on the test server that it will also remove the built-in recast timers for UL spells. Perhaps someone less lazy than me can verify that.

EDIT: Unlazied-



I'm pretty sure he meant "Unbridled Learning spells. I remember there being a community team post before that one that clarified it.

When I tested it on the test server eons ago there was no recast for UL spells while under the SP. So, you could spam things like GoH if you wanted to. Unless they decided to go back to the earlier versions where recast was present, it should be the same.

[CDF]

Yeah, it has been my experience that it can only proc once per WS and it can proc on the activation WS with Pyrrhic Kleos.

I believe Kirschy showed these things more formally by using Insurgency on crabs a lot on DRK/SAM without DA gear and never going over 6 hits. With a 40% DA/20% TA rate, she should have had an 8% chance of seeing a 7~8 hit Insurgency and iirc she states that she did about 40 WSs without seeing one in that thread.

What about Aftermath multi-hit before normal multi-hit? Considering normal DA only, if DA and mythic aftermath interact like DA does with Ridill and Magian OAT it should be relatively easy to determine from WS data. Well anyway I can probably check this on the test server with the new WAR SP 2 someday.

On another topic, for Mikage it sounds like it's OA1-x (previous translation) where x = number of shadows.

If this is the case, suppose the distribution for 1/2/3/4/5 hits is 25/40/20/10/5 (devs probably be parsimonious with the quintiple-attack).

If 15/40/20/15/10 is used as a reference distribution as a starting point for testing, then the usual chi-square test has power ~.733 for n = 100 to determine "badness of fit" between 25/40/20/10/5 and 15/40/20/15/10 (assuming 25/40/20/10/5 is true relative to the reference 15/40/20/15/10) and power > .95 for n = 200.

The multiattack distributions could be different than the above two but these sample sizes can be a guide to rule out unrealistic values of quintiple-attack probability (I doubt it would even be close to .15).

[Kincard]

Last time I heard about Mikage it didn't apply to WSs and lasts 45 seconds. Given how garbage Mijin Gakure is I think its funny how this is probably not even as good as either of WAR's SPs are. Still, I can't complain since it's actually...usable. Even though RDMs have lots to complain about THFs probably made it out the worst because Larceny is going to be useless most of the time. At least Chainspell is still good.

[Malithar]

It may not be useful on every mob, but there's quite a few mobs with useful buffs that could be stolen. SE said it was capable of stealing SPs, not that it only stole SPs, right?

Still fairly sad about Geo's, just no real "omg broken" use to it that I can think of. If it work's for Indis, maybe Compass + Indi-Gravity would be kinda fun in PvP? idk. 12' radius isn't enough to be out of most AoEs to make it useful for front line Geos. It's just one of those "that's ok.." abilities, something that should be on a 5-10 min timer rather than being an SP.

[pancakesandsex]

It may not be useful on every mob, but there's quite a few mobs with useful buffs that could be stolen. SE said it was capable of stealing SPs, not that it only stole SPs, right?

Still fairly sad about Geo's, just no real "omg broken" use to it that I can think of. If it work's for Indis, maybe Compass + Indi-Gravity would be kinda fun in PvP? idk. 12' radius isn't enough to be out of most AoEs to make it useful for front line Geos. It's just one of those "that's ok.." abilities, something that should be on a 5-10 min timer rather than being an SP.

I was kind of hoping they would increase bubble radius via gear.

[Fwahm]

The usefulness of THF's new SP is going to depend on what it can steal. If it can steal other normally unstealable things, like it can with SPs, it could be pretty darn good. Things like Preying Posture, Batholithic Shell, and Carcharian Verve would be amazing on a THF.

If it's just Aura Steal + SP stealing capability, then yeah, it's pretty disappointing.

Also, since we don't have any announcements on the actual update yet, I'm guessing that it's safe to say it's going to be on the 11th?

[Ophannus]

Since Preying Posture and Batholithic Shell grant several buffs at once, inb4 Larceny takes the Intension effect of Preying and the Magic Attack Boost. It would be hot if it were a FULL Debuff+Steal so you could absorb all of a mob's effects.

[Kyreth]

It may not be useful on every mob, but there's quite a few mobs with useful buffs that could be stolen. SE said it was capable of stealing SPs, not that it only stole SPs, right?

Yeah, if it's Aura Steal +1, OK, whatever...it just doesn't feel like it's the sort of "Oh shit" ability you'd expect to have a 1hr cooldown. COR's isn't bad, if it lets everyone else get long cooldowns done faster- especially if you went balls-to-the-wall on something and it didn't QUITE do the job. Wild Card + Cutting gives you a good chance at a second or even third chance depending.

[JSHidaka]

Also, since we don't have any announcements on the actual update yet, I'm guessing that it's safe to say it's going to be on the 11th?

we still have tomorrow and saturday for they to announce the Maintenance, if nothing in the next 2 days, ya, safe to guess that will be on the 11th...

[Malithar]

Yeah, if it's Aura Steal +1, OK, whatever...it just doesn't feel like it's the sort of "Oh shit" ability you'd expect to have a 1hr cooldown.

That's the annoying part, most of them don't really have that level of power to them, from the descriptions we have so far. Maybe it's my experience with other MMOs, but I always liked when classes and jobs had multiple different abilities that gave them bursts of survivability, DD, etc, on 10ish min CDs. When the CD is 1 hour...I just expect far more than what most jobs got.

[Damane]

we still have tomorrow and saturday for they to announce the Maintenance, if nothing in the next 2 days, ya, safe to guess that will be on the 11th...

11.11. on the 11th anniversary sounds too good to pass up, maybe there is a surprise in store!

[Obsidian]

On what planet can they look at RDM's new SP and say, "Yeah, that looks balanced." They literally gave BLM the same thing but for 60 seconds and with less enmity, and nukes can't even be fully resisted like debuffs can (and what RDM debuff is even worth applying? You don't need accuracy for Dia III). And then look at the other BLM ability, the one they get at level 15, which is the same thing, but it works on all magic, and it's on a shorter cooldown. Mind blowing.

Is PLD's new SP still the shield bash with uber attack down?

[Fawkes]

SE was sad that nobody merited Mantra.