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  1. #1041
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    But that clearly is not the problem. He mentioned UI issues hinting to not enough screen space and whatnot, while the problem is that data such as these are not displayed not because of the lack of space but simply because they're not present in the packets normally exchanged between client and server.

    I mean yes, currently in the "Equipment" menu there is no space to display other stats.
    But who keeps them from creating a new menu called, I dunno, "Advanced Stats", and display a rough list of stats normally not displayed in other menus? (Mdef, Mab, Acc, Racc etc). Think about the "Currencies" menu. It's something that couldn't be displayed before because of "lack of space", yet now it is.
    They could simply make a new menu like that.
    Thing is they are not making it not because of "UI issues" but because it would mean going back and touching the packet which I assume is a very delicate component of the game this late into development.

  2. #1042
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    Naw, they add new packets with fair regularity and they don't seem to be running out of ID numbers (they have 512 potential IDs, highest packet I know of is still below 300). Also, they add things to packets fairly frequently and the packets that make up the information on the equipment screen have plenty of space for more information. They might not even have to change the size of the packet.

  3. #1043
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    Then I don't get this whole UI limit thing. How is it a "UI space issue" when they could just be making a new menu? If they can easily add new packets

  4. #1044
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    I'd attributed it so some kind of miscommunication between the devs and the programmers?

  5. #1045

    I'd pin it more on screen real estate for the PS2. PC may be able to get their own UI, but they may not want to deviate too much without giving it an alternative, like the manually entered command.

  6. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    I'd pin it more on screen real estate for the PS2.
    Can't completely rule it out but, again, I doubt this is the cause of the issue.
    "Screen space" is not a factor at all.
    Can't get more data than the currently displayed one on a 640x480 screen? Fine. Then create A NEW SCREEN and add all the data which isn't displayed on the first one (the menu called "Equipment").
    Problem solved.
    They can't say they can't do that either because they've just done it for the "Currencies" menu, which was created from zero.

    Really, I don't get how it could even remotedly be a Screen Space issue, even for PS2. Unless I'm missing something about how PS2 version works but I seriously doubt it.

  7. #1047
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    I hope the npcs stat checkers are placed outside of town so we can see the benefits of certain buffs/ja's that cant be used inside of town i.e. Certain bloodpacts or geo spells.

  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    I hope the npcs stat checkers are placed outside of town so we can see the benefits of certain buffs/ja's that cant be used inside of town i.e. Certain bloodpacts or geo spells.
    And hopefully near some pvp areas to help us see debuffs too

  9. #1049
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    Best case would be a summoned book npc a la magian trials.

  10. #1050
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    Really though I don't see why they couldn't do a secondary status/equip menu similar to how we have on items themselves. Like have normal stuff on the equip page then hit - and bam stuff like elemental resist, att/def are replaced with stuff like ratt, meva/eva, acc/macc

  11. #1051
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    And after that, they should give BST or SCH a scan ability that gives you those stats for enemies, too!

  12. #1052

    Quote Originally Posted by Sechs View Post
    They can't say they can't do that either because they've just done it for the "Currencies" menu, which was created from zero.
    I'm looking at it more from the art resources angle. The mentioned list is basically a scrolling table. Yes, they could do a "second window" approach that, IMO, should replace the equipment grid and list, but there's still a matter of how it will wind up being presented, especially if using current fonts and other UI resources. Keep in mind they don't use abbreviations like we do like ATK for Attack or RATK. This also needs to work in multiple languages.

    If someone could pull up a screenshot of the equip menu at 640x480, I could maybe take a stab at an extended info concept. Would just be a matter of deciding what all we wanted to show. Attack alone covers Melee, Range, Magic, Blue, and Pet. Defense would be Physical, Magical, Crit DEF, and the same for Pets. Evasion and MEVA could be lumped together with resists for a finally true representation of the latter. Accuracy would need to cover Melee, Range, and every Magic and Pet type. We also get into misc. stats like Crit Rate, Magic Crit Rate, DA, TA, QA, and probably more I'm forgetting. Regardless, the screen is gonna look pretty crowded.

  13. #1053
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    I doubt theyre gonna show us such detailed stats like that. Most likely just ranged attack, accuracy, ranged accuracy, evasion, magic evasion and magic accuracy. They want some stats to be obfuscated because it's part of the game to experiment and try new pieces of gear from a developer standpoint. Its similar to why fighting game companies rarely give out frame data for their games because they say it ruins a lot of the fun if everyone knows everything. Things like crit rate cant be shown since it depends on dex, and base crit is easy to find. They also dont want ppl finding out hiddens and latents because it would ruin the point of making them hidden stats. Showing pet acc and crit evasion is rather superfluous and i'd be surprised if they added that.

  14. #1054

    Frame rates aren't even on the same tier of comparison, really. And the whole "mystery!" logic can go right the fuck off.

  15. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    I'm looking at it more from the art resources angle. The mentioned list is basically a scrolling table. Yes, they could do a "second window" approach that, IMO, should replace the equipment grid and list, but there's still a matter of how it will wind up being presented, especially if using current fonts and other UI resources. Keep in mind they don't use abbreviations like we do like ATK for Attack or RATK. This also needs to work in multiple languages.

    If someone could pull up a screenshot of the equip menu at 640x480, I could maybe take a stab at an extended info concept. Would just be a matter of deciding what all we wanted to show. Attack alone covers Melee, Range, Magic, Blue, and Pet. Defense would be Physical, Magical, Crit DEF, and the same for Pets. Evasion and MEVA could be lumped together with resists for a finally true representation of the latter. Accuracy would need to cover Melee, Range, and every Magic and Pet type. We also get into misc. stats like Crit Rate, Magic Crit Rate, DA, TA, QA, and probably more I'm forgetting. Regardless, the screen is gonna look pretty crowded.
    While all that info is nice I suppose... a lot of it is stuff that we already know and can easily add up and rather silly. I mean just because giving us rediculous amounts of uneeded info is bad doesn't really mean jack for the argument of adding a few other stats on there. Also not sure what you are getting at with every magic and pet type... but if they did display macc they'd probably display just one number (and for all we know that's effectively how it's calculated). And pets (I seriously doubt they'd display pet stats even if they added more of ours) would probably just be for whatever pet you have out at the time.

    Regardless most of the stats you listed and most of ones you could add on there are easily defineable already and most the time just involve adding up the numbers on a few peices of equipment and some traits that have long since been quantified. Things like what ophannus listed generally require a bit of testing and some of them still haven't been completely modeled really. More importantly imo it seems to make what we already get more complete job wise compared to current info and not so focused on melee DD. I mean we already get attack but why not ratt? We can sorta check acc but can't just see it. So we can get acc but not racc or macc. And of course not the counter parts of eva/meva. Also those are stats where amounts matter more. Most the other stats are basically the more the better in the end you wont really need to know in the field how much DA you have while you tweak it. But you might want to want to add a certain amount of accuracy to improve your hit rate but obviously not overdo it so you can throw the rest into the other stats

  16. #1056
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    Having a seperate macc listing per element is unnecessaryand redundant. If this is a route you feel necessary, then i say its necessary to have family breakdowns too for every stat. I mean evoliths are in the game...

  17. #1057

    Regardless most of the stats you listed and most of ones you could add on there are easily defineable already and most the time just involve adding up the numbers on a few peices of equipment and some traits that have long since been quantified.
    Which basically applies to what people "want" right now.

    My take on this is if they're going to be spending the time on any form of alternate menu, it is not something to be half-assed. Do it right. Do it well. The specificity is deliberate so people don't need to hop into a spreadsheet or pull up a calculator to find that their WS set has X ATK and Y ACC with Z Crit compared to another. Hell, something like this could also help us identify buggy equipment more readily, like how the Eminent Pole fudged BP damage. You'd still have the niche of finding ACC caps for specific content and the like, but I feel like people would wind up better educated than just having an optimal gear list regurgitated at them.

  18. #1058

    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    the whole "mystery!" logic can go right the fuck off.
    A bit of mystery I don't mind, I mean stuff like spears that do blunt damage, hidden fire damage, or stuff like that, I don't mind (You see that in RPGs of all kinds anyway). XI just took it too far with needing to go test exact numerical values just to find out basic character stats.

  19. #1059

    I don't really mind weapons bucking their traditional damage-type norms, either. And while we figured out the new eminent weapons basically function like the old perdu/maneater/etc. type latents, certainly not all were as obvious. Generally speaking, if a bonus is conditional, outlining when that bonus occurs isn't a bad thing. With the secondary window for equipment now, I'm not sure text space is a valid concern.

  20. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    I'm looking at it more from the art resources angle. The mentioned list is basically a scrolling table. Yes, they could do a "second window" approach that, IMO, should replace the equipment grid and list, but there's still a matter of how it will wind up being presented, especially if using current fonts and other UI resources. Keep in mind they don't use abbreviations like we do like ATK for Attack or RATK. This also needs to work in multiple languages.
    I don't think people would mind having a "rough list" of stats sorted by whatever's criteria, with the same exact graphics/layout of the currencies menu.
    Yes you would have to scroll maybe (according to how much stuff they want to put in there) but at least it would be always present on a screen without you having to resort to silly text commands or, even worse, an annoyingly anachronistic NPC.

    I mean... of course data presented with a cool layout in a table and that you can see all at once would be better. But if they're concerned about human/time resource cost I'm sure the largest majority of people would be fine with a scrolling list.


    Realistically they should have removed the elemental data and put some of the "main" stats in there. But judging from the "new UI" layout they don't seem to be willing to do anything even remotely close to that.
    To answer your question:
    On a personal wish I'd love "difficult to math" data to be displayed there, just for the fact that it would greatly help out the people in the community who math out stuff.
    But aside from personal wishes, what they "should" be doing with a limited space, is putting in there a set of main, important and generic stats.
    Imho the "basic" ones. I.e. Attack, Ranged Attack, Magic Attack, Accuracy, Ranged Accuracy, Magic Accuracy, Defense, Evasion, Magic Defense.
    Three lines, three different types of stats (attack, accuracy, defense). Makes a lot of sense to me.

    Altough I'm not really sure how useful displaying M.def would be... Can you even speak of a generic "magic defense"? We only have MDB which is another thing, and Magic Evasion which is more similar to the elemental resistance thing but for all elements (non elemental magic too)

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