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  1. #11881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sechs View Post
    ^ This.
    And it's poorly implemented anyway. Loot doesn't scale and HP is the only thing that really scales (as far as we know, there have been theories about other things but it was never demonstrated).
    A better, deeper scaling system would've been awesome. Blizzard's scaling system is not perfect but is certainly a better implementation than this, for instance.
    If the only thing that scaled was loot, you wouldn't see low man except for the sake of challenge. Then we'd see more of the large ls/full ally attempts like the old days, where the weekend warrior DRG was allowed to participate. But that would also require fights where the aoe doesn't rape melee instantly

    Without loot scaling, regardless of everything else, people will always try to do more with less

  2. #11882
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    I'd actually prefer it that way, more people the better. As it stands, its not fair at all to large groups to the point where they can't even participate in the content unless they split up. Otherwise they are forced to do the fight and take 10x longer and more chances to wipe and waste their time. At least if more people = more items, it would incentivize people to team up, create linkshells, be social in a MMO or more likely to include others who need clears.

  3. #11883
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    Quote Originally Posted by steellord View Post
    If the only thing that scaled was loot, you wouldn't see low man except for the sake of challenge.
    Wut? Technically the majority of fights in FFXI are easier lowmen than with full alliances, and it's arguably been like this even in the levl 75 era because of the "indirect scaling" things Fwahm was talking in the previous page.
    The more people you bring the harder it is too coordinate, the easier it is for someone to make mistakes or create slowdowns, the easier it is for the target to build elemental resistance, for players to fuck up skillchains, the harder it is for healer to heal and keep track of all the fuckton of AoE debuffs which are going to hit all the people in range at the same time, the faster the NM keeps using his dangerous TP moves because of how many DDs are hitting him and hence generating TP (when they can actually avoid missing!) and so on and so on.
    Things like this always made lowmanning easier, the times when it was viable. Only times when this was not true was specific NMs with very special characteristics or NMs you were going to Zerg by overstacking buffs and SP abilities. (NM dies in under 1 min so all of the previous talk becomes moot)


    Blizzard's scaling system scales HP and loot (in tiers) and also changes mechanics for specific fights (again, in tiers). Some fights, very few, don't change anything else, but majority of them are tuned specifically for each different fight.
    Which requires a lot of additional work on their side.
    SE's scaling is a general thing applied to everything that doesn't require any additional work.

    Btw "scaling" can work both ways. When I say that FFXI's system needed a better scaling in addition to just HP and Loot, means even positive adjustments. It could be different amounts of added HP per additional player, it could be bonuses to magic resistance built by NM over a certain number of players, and stuff like that.

  4. #11884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    I'd actually prefer it that way, more people the better. As it stands, its not fair at all to large groups to the point where they can't even participate in the content unless they split up. Otherwise they are forced to do the fight and take 10x longer and more chances to wipe and waste their time. At least if more people = more items, it would incentivize people to team up, create linkshells, be social in a MMO or more likely to include others who need clears.
    ^ this.

    Having incentives to bring LESS people and leave friends out (which in FFXI sadly happens often and for multiple reasons) kinda clashes with what the initial goal of a MMO should be, imho.

  5. #11885
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    Before HP scaling was introduced, adding people almost always made fights easier, assuming said additions were of comparable competence (so they're not actively sabotaging other players). Mobs AoEing more could be countered by adding more healers, and the other indirect scaling effects only reduce the benefit that more damage dealers have, instead of removing or countering it.

    Otherwise, more damage/safety/flexibility is more damage/support/flexibility. Bringing more competent people only started making fights harder when HP scaling being introduced meant that each additional player had to surpass a threshold to not be a liability, since every system with HP scaling involves the fights having hard time limits (with some having soft time limits too, like WoC's Benediction).

  6. #11886
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    The thing is though, you generally bring along your wayne gretzkys, babe ruths, michael jordans, etc etc first. The extra players you add usually wind up being the skill equivalents of callups.

    Adding these people dont necessarily make things easier.

  7. #11887

    Good scaling really needs to account for damage output, damage received, and healing output for any job involved. Damage output could be broken down a bit further into expected DPS increases in buffing others, but you've basically gotta set a starting point in gear and performance expectations before you can start modifying mobs on the fly. I could cite how XI is a bit of its own worst enemy here in allowing gear swaps, thus widely variable stats within a fight itself, but I'm not really interested in bickering with those who like that facet of the combat system.

    Regardless, I hate DPS checks. In other MMOs, such are basically the bane of party composition variety. And while I acknowledge the above implies such needs to happen in some form relative to class output, I don't really believe it should be in the sense of "perfect gear and max buffs" which only benefits certain compositions. This might also require some people getting the stick out of their ass about what some jobs should or shouldn't be doing, but I can't entirely place the blame on them for such opinions if SE fails to give the more hybrid roles the tools they need to compete with specialists situationally.

    But yeah, drops not scaling is dumb. Token systems kinda work around this, presuming no dividing goes on based on party size, but there are some MMOers out there who are adamant that loot has to come directly from a mob instead of some currency NPC or even a crafter. Damned if we do, damned if we don't, there.

  8. #11888
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    This month's campaign is... a week long. Hope you weren't planning on getting much out of it.

  9. #11889
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    Yeah that is strange... I guess they are shortening the campaigns. Wonder why they added plutons etc there, those aren't important much anymore. Inb4 new REM upgrade is something dumb like 5000 plutons.

  10. #11890

    Personally, I think the Dark Matter augments on Reisenjima equipment was to encourage more Vagary clears to help out any new/returning players. I wouldn't be surprised if they take the same approach to the new RME upgrades and make them require either underused or completely new items from Delve/WKR/VW to help with the HPB and HMP situation. Something like 10000 plutons on top of that wouldn't be too far fetched either, but I hope they avoid that since it would affect things aside from 99=>119 RME like Oboro Weapons and T3 Zitah.

  11. #11891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarage View Post
    This month's campaign is... a week long. Hope you weren't planning on getting much out of it.
    They announced it as a series of seven different and sequential one-week campaigns.
    There's gonna be 6 more, one after the other.
    Guess they're gonna last until the april patch.

  12. #11892
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    Since they're going to buff RME and oboro weapons this update I supposed they might just expect a surge in demand for plutons/beitetsu/rift boulders. But... I get the feeling it really is just going to be some exorbitant number of them for the upgrade. It'd be the exact same thing as the regular afterglow trial, take the previous upgrade item and multiply it by 10 to the power of stupid. I'd be unsurprised if people start buying them in bulk just in case. As for affecting things other than RME, sounds like something SE would do.

  13. #11893
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    500 of them for Afterglow owners, 10k for the rest of us.
    Hope it's not more than 10k really... 10k sounds already exorbitant.

  14. #11894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if they take the same approach to the new RME upgrades and make them require either underused or completely new items from Delve/WKR/VW to help with the HPB and HMP situation. Something like 10000 plutons on top of that wouldn't be too far fetched either, but I hope they avoid that since it would affect things aside from 99=>119 RME like Oboro Weapons and T3 Zitah.
    Plutons and the like could be balanced decently (though I would think more in the 3k range or so). The important thing with them is that they're also already available via multiple sources, accessible to basically any player they'd be relevant to. I'd guess that most high level players wind up getting at least some of them on a regular basis, ensuring a steady supply.

    Main consideration is T3 pops, but while it's speculation on top of speculation, the update status thing did mention that they'd be reducing the number of items needed for certain Geas Fete triggers.

  15. #11895
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    10,000 marrows for non AG. 1 marrow for AG. Mark my words this is what it will be.

  16. #11896
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    Quote Originally Posted by wipers View Post
    10,000 marrows for non AG. 1 marrow for AG. Mark my words this is what it will be.
    That would be dumb and wouldn't make sense.

    So totally what SE would do.

  17. #11897
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    There seems to be a jp dev post about Oboro stuff today but translators are having a super hard time with deciphering wtf they are saying.

  18. #11898

    Saw it earlier when I was out. It's saying that the harp/shield/bell will be included in the update and there is only one set path.

    I'll have a real translation up in a few minutes.

    EDIT: Sorry, upon rereading it, it's not guaranteed to be Airlixirs. Don't go out and buy a bunch of them just yet.

  19. #11899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    Saw it earlier when I was out. It's saying that the harp/shield/bell will be included in the update, the upgrade involves certain materials from delve, and there is only one set path (so I'm guessing Airlixirs).

    I'll have a real translation up in a few minutes.
    If it's airlixirs I might breath a huge sigh of relief, near any group can spam the hell out of Delve for a tonne of airlixirs.

  20. #11900

    I reread the post and it's actually not guaranteed to be airlixirs or even from Delve. Sorry if anybody ran out and bought like 10 stacks of the things because of that earlier post!

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