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Thread: Tier V Multiplier     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #1
    Masamune
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    Tier V Multiplier

    Basic Nuking Calculations and Tier5 M multiplier test

    All nukes done with BLM90/rdm45 (INT115 MAB80% HQstaff) on Lesser Colibris Wajaom, Blizzard 3 4 and 5 during Darkday.

    Spoiler: show
    Lcolis relevant stats have been determined through SanguineBlade and MonsterStats Formulas as :
    LVL63: INT=78
    LVL64: INT=79
    LVL65: INT=80
    Magic Defense Bonus = 12%

    - Damage values obtained on resp. lvl63,64,65 Lcolis :
    Blizz3 : 692,691,686
    Blizz4: 1071,533(resisted),1063
    Blizz5: 1689,1682,1679

    - Determination of parameters M and V (from wiki) :
    Blizz3: M=1.5, V=320
    Blizz4: M=2, V=506
    Blizz5: M=2.33, V=828

    - Damage calculations :
    Spell MobLVL D StaffBonus MAB/MDB
    Blizz3 63 375 431 692
    Blizz3 64 374 430 691
    Blizz3 65 372 427 686
    Blizz4 63 580 667 1071
    Blizz4 64 578 664 1067 > half resist gives = 533
    Blizz4 65 576 662 1063
    Blizz5 63 914 1051 1689
    Blizz5 64 911 1047 1682
    Blizz5 65 909 1045 1679


    Conclusion: Unless i made a mistake somewhere, calculated damage won't match with a M=2.299 like wiki stated for Tier5, but do with M=2.33. I'm curious where is the test which determined that 2.299 M multiplier for Tier5.

    EDIT: nvm Nivlakian PMd a test shown in spoiler below proving it werenot the M multiplier that were wrong but the V value of 829 instead of 828. Good Job !
    Spoiler: show
    Quote Originally Posted by nivlakian
    Sending this to both Yugl and Masamune...

    I'd like to submit further information that disagrees with Masa's post in the magic thread.


    My tests were done on Earthsday as Taru BLM/RDM against Tiny Mandragora.
    Base INT = 98
    Base MAB = 36
    Merit MAB for Blizzard = 10


    I used Witchstone and Yigit Crackrows to make my MAB an even 1.5. No staff used. I cast Burn on each mob prior to nuking to reduce their INT to 1 (provable using AM2 with 101 INT and 1.5 for MAB, damage is 1365).


    Blizzard V w/ 101 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1587
    Blizzard V w/ 111 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1621
    Blizzard V w/ 121 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1656
    Blizzard V w/ 151 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1759

    If you use M = 2.299 and V = 829 (not 828 as shown on wiki), these numbers work.

    floor(floor(floor((101-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1587
    floor(floor(floor((111-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1621
    floor(floor(floor((121-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1656
    floor(floor(floor((151-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1759



    The same is true for the tests shown by Masa.

    floor(floor(floor(floor((115-78) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1689
    floor(floor(floor(floor((115-79) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1682
    floor(floor(floor(floor((115-80) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1679

    So, assuming I haven't made a mistake, M is probably 2.299, but the V value for Blizzard5 is what's wrong.

  2. #2
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    Further corrections by Nivlakian:
    Quote Originally Posted by nivlakian
    Trying out further to narrow down M, I noticed a discrepancy at an INT difference of 107 and 117.

    Lightsday, 108 INT, MAB 1.5, used burn to bring mob to 1 INT. Blizzard V did 1612 damage.
    Lightsday, 118 INT, MAB 1.5, used burn to bring mob to 1 INT. Blizzard V did 1647 damage.

    floor(floor(floor((108-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1611
    floor(floor(floor((118-1) * 2.299 + 829) * 1.5) = 1645
    Does not match in this case.

    However, 2.2995 matches those cases and the prior ones. It's such a weird number though that almost makes it seem like some form of floating point error.

    Editing my previous message to reflect this (also I wrote floor one too many times prior):
    Quote Originally Posted by nivlakian
    I'd like to submit further information that disagrees with Masa's post in the magic thread.

    My tests were done on Earthsday as Taru BLM/RDM against Tiny Mandragora.
    Base INT = 98
    Base MAB = 36
    Merit MAB for Blizzard = 10

    I used Witchstone and Yigit Crackrows to make my MAB an even 1.5. No staff used. I cast Burn on each mob prior to nuking to reduce their INT to 1 (provable using AM2 with 101 INT and 1.5 for MAB, damage is 1365).

    Blizzard V w/ 101 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1587
    Blizzard V w/ 111 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1621
    Blizzard V w/ 121 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1656
    Blizzard V w/ 151 INT, 1.5 MAB = 1759

    If you use M = 2.2995 and V = 829 (not 828 as shown on wiki), these numbers work.

    floor(floor((101-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1587
    floor(floor((111-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1621
    floor(floor((121-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1656
    floor(floor((151-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1759

    The same is true for the tests shown by Masa.
    floor(floor(floor((115-78) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1689
    floor(floor(floor((115-79) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1682
    floor(floor(floor((115-80) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.15) * 1.8/1.12) = 1679

    So, assuming I haven't made a mistake, M is probably 2.2995, but the V value for Blizzard5 is what's wrong.

  3. #3
    Masamune
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    Apparently that Blizz V determination is resisting Nivlakian, as he found another dicrepancy :
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivlakian
    I uploaded a copy of the table I was working with to googledocs which you should be able to view here.

    On the first sheet, each table has a list of possible V values going across the top row. Various M values are on the left column. For each table, I bolded the value I got when I tested that particular INT difference. If you go down each column, you should find at least one case where a particular M did not work for that value of V. I hope that makes sense. If you see any mistakes, let me know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivlakian
    Doing calculations, I found an INT that would allow one to distinguish M=2.2994 and M=2.2995. This occurs at an int difference of 167 INT with MAB=1.5.

    floor(floor((168-1) * 2.2994 + 829) * 1.5) = 1818
    floor(floor((168-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1819

    Test resulted in 1819 as the damage.

    Unfortunately, it takes extreme INT difference to tell the difference between anything from 2.2995 and 2.2999. However, I had an idea. SE does have a habit of using the /1024th numbering system. Perhaps they wanted M = 2.3, but used /1024 instead.

    2355/1024 = 2.299804688
    That is probably M's exact value if I were to guess.

    To eliminate M=2.2995 and 2.2996, someone needs to test the following:
    INT difference of 207 can show the difference between 2.2995 and 2.2996
    INT difference of 257 can show the difference between 2.2996 and 2.2997

  4. #4
    Radsourceful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
    Apparently that Blizz V determination is resisting Nivlakian, as he found another dicrepancy :
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivlakian
    I uploaded a copy of the table I was working with to googledocs which you should be able to view here.

    On the first sheet, each table has a list of possible V values going across the top row. Various M values are on the left column. For each table, I bolded the value I got when I tested that particular INT difference. If you go down each column, you should find at least one case where a particular M did not work for that value of V. I hope that makes sense. If you see any mistakes, let me know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivlakian
    Doing calculations, I found an INT that would allow one to distinguish M=2.2994 and M=2.2995. This occurs at an int difference of 167 INT with MAB=1.5.

    floor(floor((168-1) * 2.2994 + 829) * 1.5) = 1818
    floor(floor((168-1) * 2.2995 + 829) * 1.5) = 1819

    Test resulted in 1819 as the damage.

    Unfortunately, it takes extreme INT difference to tell the difference between anything from 2.2995 and 2.2999. However, I had an idea. SE does have a habit of using the /1024th numbering system. Perhaps they wanted M = 2.3, but used /1024 instead.

    2355/1024 = 2.299804688
    That is probably M's exact value if I were to guess.

    To eliminate M=2.2995 and 2.2996, someone needs to test the following:
    INT difference of 207 can show the difference between 2.2995 and 2.2996
    INT difference of 257 can show the difference between 2.2996 and 2.2997
    208 int testing shows 2.2996

    BLM/DRK, 93+5(merits) base + 83 in gear + 7 food + 20 abs-int, 1.5 MAB

    Alkalurops/---/---/Phantom
    Goetia+2/Goetia/Abyssal/---
    Augur/Arcane/Spiral/---
    Goetia/Cognition/Morrigan/Goetia+2

    Cream Puff

    Burn > Abs Int > wait 10 > Blizzard 5(@208INT)
    DMG = 1957

    SS(1920x1200)
    Spoiler: show


    To get the next 50 int... Hailstorm + SV Etudes (and 2x icesoul, another int earring)? Send the BRD to lock on a field manual so can try a couple times to get the timing right. Damage will jump ~3 points rather than 1 if you miss a tic of int decay, so it's pretty easy to tell when you land it right.

  5. #5
    Masamune
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    FireV doesnot have any baseDMG value on wiki table for V. Need test that.

  6. #6
    Sea Torques
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    I don't know where I got this number from (probably buried in BG), but my magic calc uses 784 for FireV base damage. If it isn't right, it's probably in the ballpark.

  7. #7
    Hydra
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    Well, I'm a bit confused about which thread to use now, but I have some stuff I've been meaning to post for a while which I'll post here this time.

    Listing "Staff" and "Affinity" as separate terms in the wiki Magic Damage page is confusing, as it makes it seem like you get a cumulative bonus. The lv51 elemental staves, magian staves, and atma are all part of the same term.

    However, there is one slight difference between the elemental "Affinity: Magic Damage+" from staves, and the "elemental attack +" from atma...
    Atma's "elemental attack +" doesn't fit names "Staff bonus" or "Affinity"...
    Both lv51 elemental staves and magian staves give a negative penalty to the opposing element because you have affinity with the element.
    Atma does not give you affinity; just the elemental attack bonus, the same which can be obtained by having affinity.

    So, if you use both Atma of the Beyond and a magian Varuna staff +2
    Staff : Ice "affinity: magic damage" +30% = "Ice elemental attack" +30%, "Wind elemental attack" -30%
    Atma : "Ice elemental attack" +30%
    Blizzard spells will get +60% bonus (*1.6)
    Aero will get -30% penalty (*0.7)

    -ja & Comet element bonuses are a separate term. This term is not yet mentioned on the Magic Damage page.
    This term is applied before Resist, but I haven't tested whether it's before or after Affinity.
    "-ja & Comet" bonus > Resist > MAB

    Resist is applied after Affinity and before MAB... (otherwiki has Resist before Affinity, but this doesn't seem to be correct.)
    D > Affinity > Resist > MAB

    The Goetia +2 set bonus term is applied after MAB.

    So basically, just wanted to add this to the order of operations:
    D > ["-ja & Comet" <> Affinity] > [Resist <> Day & Weather] > MAB > Goetia+2 set bonus

  8. #8
    Ridill
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    They are probably listed like that because the lvl 51 staffs are a seperate term from atma/trial staffs. As far as ja/set bonus stuff probably wasn't added yet partly because it's newish and probably partly because it's something really specific to that spell and/or gear

  9. #9
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    The Affinity v Elemental Staff distinction was made quite a while ago when atmas first became prevalent and the links to the original posts showing that should be on BG-wiki. While you're right about the difference between the staffs andatmas, what is different is the terminology; not the place within the formula. Someone else can probably get the links to support this, but when tested, Elemental staffs are their own term but atmas and magian staffs combine additively. However, for the sake of clarify, it would be beneficial to say the following:

    Elemental staffs offer their own bonuses and negatives
    Magian staffs offer Affinity
    Affinity contains Affinity Magic Attack and Affinity Magic Accuracy
    Affinity Magic Attack contains X Elemental Attack Plus and X' Elemental Attack Minus
    Atmas grain Elemental Attack Plus

    Thus, the equations remain the same (As testing shows them to until you or someone else proves otherwise) but the terminology changes to accommodate those distinctions you listed. I suspect that what we called Species Damage Taken (SDT) is really a 100% forced resist to a particular level (1/2, 1/4, or whatever). To test whether this is the case or not, we would need to find a sample where you exceed (1/8) resistance. If that happens, you can conjecture that SDT is separate from resistance. Otherwise, it's reasonable to say that SDT is a forced resistance. This would explain why resistance shows up between Affinity and MAB.

  10. #10
    Masamune
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    Because I'm the one who updates a lot of the testing on the wiki, it may just be easiest to give me the power to split threads. That way when I deem "Testing Accomplished" or whatever, I can just pull it out of the thread before I link to it.
    Yes, agreed with Byrth.

    actually there is something that i dislike, "splitting threads" is not a good idea... just look at this whole Mathy forum what it became since day1: a fuckton of threads appeared....
    i'm pointing especially the random facts threadS, those are imho just for babbling stuff between testers... real tests results should be posted and summed up in one post in relevant thread already set since Day1 (ie "Magic" "WeaponSkills" etc...) and not stay in random facts thread(s).
    i'm saying that because then Byrth and others are linking the wiki pages to test results which are actually several posts in one of those random facts thread(s)... that means when one go to the wiki page of some job trait for example, and then want to check the tests, he end up on a random fact thread trying to find and read sometimes 10 posts over 3 pages...
    Compare this with for example "Sanguine Scythe mods": the reader end up, from Sanguine Scythe wiki page, on a single post in "Weaponskills" thread, in one click and 0 scrolling.

    This would require someone to constantly check random fact thread when a testing discussion is "done" to sum it up in one post and post it in relevant thread, so Byrth can link on this post after.

    IMHO, this mathy forum had the good ideas at beginning, but overtime all i see is it's "derailing" in terms of structure and organisation, best is to keep simple...

    EDIT : an example of what i want to say above is the .dats postings in main forum: 2 threads only are created: one for discussion and others for findings. Any lolpost in findings thread is deleted or moved in discussion thread asap, and vice versa(tough rarely happens). I hoped would be same here with discussion thread being the SINGLE Random Fact thread, and the findings summed up and posted in relevant original threads set since Day1.

  11. #11
    Hydra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    Someone else can probably get the links to support this, but when tested, Elemental staffs are their own term but atmas and magian staffs combine additively.
    Oops. Sorry, you're right.
    I hadn't used an Aquilo's staff for a long time and just made an assumption about that as I was rushing the post to log off and go to sleep.
    I'm rushing this post again as I'm logging to go to work, but here's something else I've found out.

    -ja bonus (I won't make the assumption that Comet is the same here) is applied before Affinity, and before Staff bonus.
    So...
    D > "-ja bonus" (maybe Comet too) > [Staff bonus <> Affinity]

    I'll test whether resist is before or after day & weather later, and try to actually post my test data instead of just conclusions.

  12. #12
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    If people are willing to summarize/organize their data into a single thread once testing within the random facts thread is complete, then I'm all for that option. The problem is that no one does it.

    Edit: What if I propose the following:
    - Single Random Facts thread for minor facts (Stuff that cannot be debated or event discussed)
    - JA/Magic/Stats Discussion thread
    - All other major findings must have their own thread

  13. #13
    Hydra
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    OK, here is the order of calculations I have now:

    D > "-ja & Comet bonus" > Staff Bonus > Affinity > Resist > Day & Weather > MAB > Goetia +2 set bonus

    I've tested that...
    - Comet bonus, like "-ja bonus", is also applied before Affinity and Staff Bonus
    - Staff Bonus is applied before Affinity
    - Resist is applied before Day & Weather.

    And as promised before, here's some test data...

    -ja bonus > Staff Bonus
    Code:
    cINT=115 (113+2) [BLM99/rdm49]
    tINT=106 (Ectozoon @ Abyssea Uleguerand)
    dINT=9 (115-106)
    M=2.29957, V=953 (Blizzaja) [Windsday, no weather]
    "-ja bonus" = 1.05
    Ice Staff bonus = 1.15 (Aquilo's Staff)
    MAB=1.5 (40+10)
    
    A = "-ja bonus" > Staff Bonus
    B = Staff Bonus > "-ja bonus"
    
    	D	* 1st	* 2nd	* MAB
    A -->	973	1021.65	1174.15	1761
    B -->	973	1118.95	1173.9	1759.5
    
    In-game damage = 1761  (first cast = 1677)
    Comet bonus > Staff Bonus
    Code:
    cINT=111 (113-2) [BLM99/rdm49]
    tINT=106 (Ectozoon @ Abyssea Uleguerand)
    dINT=5 (111-106)
    M=2.2998, V=964 (Comet) [Watersday, no weather]
    "Comet bonus" = 1.05 (first cast = 2:09:21, second cast = 2:10:10)
    Dark Staff bonus = 1.15 (Pluto's Staff)
    MAB=1.5 (40+10)
    
    A = "Comet bonus" > Staff Bonus
    B = Staff Bonus > "Comet bonus"
    
    	D	* 1st	* 2nd	* MAB
    A -->	975	1023.75	1176.45	1764
    B -->	975	1121.25	1177.05	1765.5
    
    In-game damage = 1764  (first cast = 1681)
    Staff > Affinity
    Code:
    cINT=114 (113+1) [BLM99/rdm49]
    tINT=105 (Ectozoon @ Abyssea Uleguerand)
    dINT=9 (114-105)
    M=2.0, V=506 (Blizzard IV) [Watersday, no weather]
    Ice Staff bonus = 1.15 (Aquilo's Staff)
    Ice Affinity = 1.3 (Atma of the Beyond)
    MAB=1.8 (40+10+30)
    
    A = Staff > Affinity
    B = Affinity > Staff
    
    	D	* 1st	* 2nd	* MAB
    A -->	524	602.6	782.6	1407.6
    B -->	524	681.2	783.15	1409.4
    
    In-game damage = 1407
    Affinity > Resist
    Code:
    cINT=108 (113-5) [BLM99/rdm49]
    tINT=106 (Ectozoon @ Abyssea Uleguerand)
    dINT=2 (108-106)
    M=2.0, V=506 (Blizzard IV) [Windsday, no weather]
    Resist = 0.125 (1/8)
    Ice Affinity = 1.3 (Atma of the Beyond)
    MAB=1.8 (40+10+30)
    
    A = Resist > Affinity
    B = Affinity > Resist
    
    	D	* 1st	* 2nd	* MAB
    A -->	510	63.75	81.9	145.8
    B -->	510	663	82.875	147.6
    
    
    In-game damage = 147
    Resist > Day & Weather
    Code:
    cINT=108 (113-5) [BLM99/rdm49]
    tINT=106 (Ectozoon @ Abyssea Uleguerand)
    dINT=2 (108-106)
    M=2.0, V=506 (Blizzard IV) [Iceday, no weather]
    Resist = 0.125 (1/8)
    Day & Weather bonus = 1.1 (Iceday)
    MAB=1.5 (40+10)
    
    A = Resist > Day & Weather
    B = Day & Weather > Resist
    
    	D	* 1st	* 2nd	* MAB
    A -->	510	56.5	61.6	91.5
    B -->	510	497.2	62.125	93
    
    In-game damage = 91

  14. #14
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    The staff/affinity concurs with our earlier results. Given the placement of "Resist" you found, I argue we should keep the term SDT, but make it a subset of the term "Resist." SDT will just refer to a forced resist at a particular resist level. The wiki needs to include "Successive Cast Bonus" (Good term for Ja/Comet/Impact bonuses).