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  1. #1
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    Magic Damage Order of Operations

    I don't know if you guys would consider this relevant, but a discussion of monster-specific resistances with Rambus yielded something that was probably known but not wikified:
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ll=1#post86482

    My naked RDM mule has 24 MAB. Target was Gigas Leech on Watersday in Qufim.

    Water did 32 damage, but day bonus pushed it to 34.
    Stone did 52.
    Water II did 88.

    I was apparently not dINT capped. Point is, the only order of operations that I can get to work is:
    Monster Elemental Resistance -> Day Bonus -> MAB

    That means the wiki is either wrong, or there's another term that was missing.

  2. #2
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    Leech page isn't working, but if the magic resistance of leeches is 50%....

    Pattern 1: MAB > DB > MER = [32 => 64 => 59 => 48 base DMG]

    MER > MAB > DB = Cannot work if base damage is floored
    MAB > MER > DB

    Pattern 2: MER > DA > MAB = [32 => 26 => 24 => 48 DMG]

    Pattern 3: DB > MER > MAB = [32 => 26 => 52 => 48 DMG]

    Pattern 4: DB > MAB > MER = [32 => 64 => 52 => 48 DMG]

    How this works:
    Removing the last piece should yield the first number. So in pattern 2, if you remove MAB, you should get 26. If you then remove day bonus, you should get 24.

    CAUTION: Try it on something else /RDM because there is debate over RDM getting MABIII @ 88 on Wiki!

  3. #3
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    I'm having trouble lining those numbers up, going to head out there myself later today. Even with MDT > Day > MAB, I show water2 as doing 85 damage.

    How much INT does your rdm mule have? Stone calculation shows a dINT of 32, which could be pretty close to softcapping stone.

    Edit: Best to try on BLM/DRK - known MAB, and can absint > burn > nuke to set leech int to 1.

    No hard test yet but I was softcapping dINT below 100 for blizz/thunder 1 - test with T2/T3 spells

  4. #4
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    Well, neither of my characters have DRK to 39 for Absorb INT (both stopped at 37). My RDM mule has 71 INT and is a level 75 hume. It's currently watersday and I'm going out to nuke on my mule's 88 WHM/SAM (also 71 INT). Jaykay, WHM/SAM doesn't get water. Restrategizing.

    Okay, BLM/THF with 14 MAB in gear (1.5 MAB total) and 86+44 INT. Apollo's Staff -> 49/54 damage with/without day bonus, I also got a 1/2 resist that brought it to 24 out of pure dumb luck.

    INT+3 didn't change the damage at all.

    Neptune's Staff (INT-2, affinity +15%) gave me 55 damage on what I assume to be the non-day bonus case. Yep! 60 with Day bonus.

    Blizzard IV did 1155 damage with 86+45 INT and Neptune's Staff.

  5. #5
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    100% you're softcapping if not hardcapping, no way leeches have 39 int.

    Edit: Numbers match up pretty nicely with dSoft as 25 and dHard around 105-110, with the leech having ~22 int. Soon as NM pops for trials will head over and try myself.

  6. #6
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    It's 20:00, have anything you want me to check?

  7. #7
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    Water4, with/without weather, also stone4

  8. #8
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    Doh, someone killed my giant trapper. It won't repop before day ends. I found another trapper, but the leech is maybe a different level.

    Water IV on one leech did 489
    Water IV on another leech did 474. Same leech repopped did 520 with day bonus.

    Day end.

  9. #9
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    S'ok, will go out on sch soon enough.

  10. #10
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    Order of operations on magic:

    I assume that Floor(dINT*M)+V has to come first, as the rest are multipliers on that.

    Testing on Banshee in qufim, determined to have 35 INT using blizz 2 and 3 without weather procs, only terms are Floor(Floor(dINT*M)+V)*Monster Family Reduction)
    96+7 INT me, 35 INT banshee, 50% dmg reduction on ice = 211 blizz3, 111blizz2

    Add Hailstorm, and some int to make sure I land on a split point
    96+15 INT, same 35int banshee, 50% dmg reduction ice = 115 blizz2 no proc, 126 blizz2 proc

    Weather > SDT
    Floor((96+15-35)*1)+155 = 231
    Floor(231*1.1) = 254
    Floor(254*0.5) = 127 Wrong

    SDT > Weather
    Floor((96+15-35)*1)+155 = 231
    Floor(231*0.5) = 115
    Floor(254*1.1) = 126 Correct

    Will add in Staff, MAB, MDB(Pending results of testing vidohunir), Affinty, and Magic Burst, mutli-target reduction, Day(Assuming not just part of weather) as I find test cases.
    To add:
    MDT
    Magic Burst

    To be clear:
    Code:
    1. Calculate dINT*M
    2. Add V
    3. Multiple Target Reduction
    .
    k. Staff
    l. Affinity
    m. SDT
    .
    .
    .
    n. Weather, Day, Twilight Cape
    .
    o. MAB/MDB
    p. MDT
    Done
    Aside, if Day/Weather uses a x/1024 system, it's at least +102/1024, ty Yugl (201 > 221 with a day proc)

    Edit: Changed Monster Family Reduction to SDT

    Edit: Confirmed, SDT is not the same as Shell. Sahagin take 50% water damage, with Bubble Armor active Water dropped to 25%, Aero fell from 100% to 50%.

    Edit: MDT from Shell comes after SDT, unknown comparison to other effects.

  11. #11
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    Used SCH/BLU to get SDT > Day bonus > MAB

    SCH/BLU using sound blast + death ray on all tests:
    Without any bonus: 107 DMG (Bat SDT should half that, so 214 DMG)
    With Day bonus (Obi on darkdy) + MAB (Moldavite Earring): 122 DMG

    Knowing SDT>Day bonus, we have three cases

    1. MAB > SDT > Day
    214*1.05 = 224.7 => 224
    224/2 = 112
    112*(1126/1024) = 123.15625 => 123 DMG

    2. SDT > Day Bonus > MAB
    214/2 = 107
    107*(1126/1024) = 117.6582... => 117
    117*1.05 = 122.85 => 122 DMG

    3. SDT > MAB > Day Bonus
    214/2 = 107
    107*1.05 = 112.35 => 112
    112*(1126/1024) = 123.15625 => 123

    Only one of those gets us the 122 I got!

    Edit: With the help of Radec I checked to make sure it was (1126/1024) rather than (1124/1024). Also works using 1.1 multiplier. Checked by Radec and suggested by Nivlakian, THIS ONLY APPLIES TO MONSTER RESISTANCE. Radec has confirmed MDT=/= Monster resistance.

  12. #12
    Masamune
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    Nice test! How about comverting MDT into MDB and test 2 more Options :

    Day Bonus > MAB/MDB
    and
    MAB/MDB > Day Bonus

    way simpler isnot it ?

    EDIT: noticed something else: the whole test is assuming baseDMG = 214 from a resisted observed damage o.O
    doesnot sound very reliable at all, as 215dmg could be true as well... (215/2=107.5 floored = 107)

  13. #13
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    Not sure I understand.

    OOP (Order of Operations): Mob Resistance => Day Bonus => MAB/MDB Check.

  14. #14
    Masamune
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    It's the "MOB Resistance" im putting into question, as i don't understand at all why poeple (because its not SE devs of course who made that order of operations) imagined the concept of MDT as a supplementary step into calculations instead of simply adding one more MDB term (racial MDB).

    Also, there is another 2 other asumptions in the test:
    - Sound Blast lowers mb's INT by -10 ok.... but is it static over time ? Assumed answer: yes.
    - base INT of bats is <= 10 ? Assumed answer : yes.

  15. #15
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    I checked the INT stuff using my BLU calculator. I got 197 on the rabbit and 197 using INT=1 on the calculator. I also made sure not to cap my INT. It couldn't have been a racial MDB since it reduces the damage by 50% each time. You can see this by doing Digest since MAB has no impact (Purely based on BLU Skill + MDT-like behavior). However Radec did find (I didn't want to post this since he tested it) that Mob resistance=/= MDT. Sahagins will take 25% Water Damage when shell (ability) is up. Also, if it were MDB, the damage resistance wouldn't be static with varying levels of MAB (I should definitely add all this into one post since it clarifies a few points I forgot to mention).

  16. #16
    Masamune
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    ...It couldn't have been a racial MDB since it reduces the damage by 50% each time. You can see this by doing Digest since MAB has no impact (Purely based on BLU Skill + MDT-like behavior).
    AAaaa ok that's an element of proof, unless another order of operations is involved (like Floor(Floor(DMG*MAB)/(jobMDB+racialMDB))) instead of Floor(DMG*(MAB/(jobMDB+racialMDB))) .

    I'm wondering how can i test those hypothesises with 0 asumption ? bats like Yugl with an additional test to prove their INT (and level(s?)) ?

    EDIT: just saw on wiki there are Incubus Bats @ Shitadel[S] who have exact same levels as lesser Colibris (lvl63,64&65)

  17. #17
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    That might be possible, but wouldn't the first calculation then have to yield 122DMG?

    Floor(214*105) = 22470
    (22470/(100+100)) = 112.35 => 112
    112*(1126/1024) = 123.15625 => 123 DMG

    So it can't be that either.

    I'll log later now and try to get an INT value, but it should be ~7INT.

  18. #18
    Masamune
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    That might be possible, but wouldn't the first calculation then have to yield 122DMG?

    Floor(214*105) = 22470
    (22470/(100+100)) = 112.35 => 112
    112*(1126/1024) = 123.15625 => 123 DMG

    So it can't be that either.

    I'll log later now and try to get an INT value, but it should be ~7INT.
    And their job (probably WAR/war, but noone proved bats don't have RDM or /rdm or WHM or /whm)

    Regarding your last post, no, i meant something completely different.

    How much INT MND did you have when tested with DeathRay ? (trying to get the baseDMG before that "MDT-like" resist)

    Also, it's unclear to me if bats have a "resist ALL magic type damage", or only Dark based magic resistance ? I've seen some reports about them resisting also Wind spells, but getting normal(or boosted) damage from Ice spells.

  19. #19
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    I'll have to log in to confirm, but I'm almost certain it was 81INT and 93MND.

    Edit: Fuck, you might have something since I double checked and it looks like it might have been 215 initial damage (Again, I need to log in to confirm). NVM, it works even with 215 base damage. Also, the additional test with Radec should lend further confirmation the calculator is working.

    Even if they resist more than dark magic type, this at least confirms the OOP (Order of Operations).

  20. #20
    Masamune
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    On my side, i'm going to test those bats' jobs and stats (at least black ones), since i'm interested also if there are any diffreence between Giant type ones, and Trio ones. I'll post findings in monster data thread.

    EDIT: funny anecdote, while searching Incubus bats at shitadelS, instead of them i ended up putting myself nose to nose with Elatha.... who sent my poor THF ass back to Home Point lol...

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