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  1. #6501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edelweiss View Post
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3549197





    Jim Berry, ladies and gentlemen. Never has someone utterly failed to understand the difference between the present and the future, and why STR has trumped VIT in every scenario until 3.2, like he.
    OF n1 retard really, kinda remind me of that duuuude bismarck

  2. #6502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    Except whether or not it ultimately kills you is at the whim of a DF healer.

    It's not like you have an enrage to beat, 90% of 24 man raid fails are simply from people taking unnecessary damage and dying.

    There's a big difference between a BLM using Manawall to eat a Sluice in A3S or a Seed in A4S to maintain their rotation (and the healer knowing to expect it) and just taking damage cause you don't feel like moving.

    edit: oh, or a meteorain in Thordan EX, our BRD loved to fuck with our BLM by creeping over to him just before it went out
    Just because its faceroll content doesn't mean you should run it sub-optimally. I'll give my healers a warning that I may eat some AOE's to maintain my DPS, but only if i'm not able to dodge between casts. 90% of 24 man raid fails aren't from unnecessary damage imo, they are generally from failure of doing the fight mechanics, or the main tank dying (for either lack of cooldowns or lack of heals) - and then the boss goes around murdering everyone.

  3. #6503
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    I want to yell at every VIT paladin I run into in Trial roulette. I can let them pull first, waste time throwing stoneskins on them at first, and still take thread off of them in Sword oath. They really just don't understand the gap there.

    "Who cares, we killed it" is a shitty excuse to be willfully ignorant, but some people only care about the end result, not the path to get there. Even in faceroll content now it's evident: Forcing phase script skips on the primals will take a lot of time off of the clock. But who cares about efficiency?

  4. #6504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyall View Post
    I want to yell at every VIT paladin I run into in Trial roulette. I can let them pull first, waste time throwing stoneskins on them at first, and still take thread off of them in Sword oath. They really just don't understand the gap there.

    "Who cares, we killed it" is a shitty excuse to be willfully ignorant, but some people only care about the end result, not the path to get there. Even in faceroll content now it's evident: Forcing phase script skips on the primals will take a lot of time off of the clock. But who cares about efficiency?
    I have the bad feels now ;; I run mostly VIT in DF Trials because most of the healers are terrible and most of the DPS ignore almost all mechanics so fights go terribly wrong.

    EDIT: I should clarify "most of the healers are terrible". I'm not talking about "fulltime clerics and a little too much DPSing so I need to lean on cooldowns". That's the good stuff. I'm talking about "not moving and no cast actions happening for 15 seconds at a time" terrible.

    These discussions aren't for when posters on BG run into each other in game, it's about trying to survive all the shit players that are out there. Unless a healer is someone I know, I have to assume they are terrible and they usually are.

    Some fights are just atrociously easy (if/gar/titan) so I still full-STR. But the ones with more shit going on, I don't trust DF heals and I'm usually right.

  5. #6505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raineer View Post
    I have the bad feels now ;; I run mostly VIT in DF Trials because most of the healers are terrible and most of the DPS ignore almost all mechanics so fights go terribly wrong.

    EDIT: I should clarify "most of the healers are terrible". I'm not talking about "fulltime clerics and a little too much DPSing so I need to lean on cooldowns". That's the good stuff. I'm talking about "not moving and no cast actions happening for 15 seconds at a time" terrible.

    These discussions aren't for when posters on BG run into each other in game, it's about trying to survive all the shit players that are out there. Unless a healer is someone I know, I have to assume they are terrible and they usually are.

    Some fights are just atrociously easy (if/gar/titan) so I still full-STR. But the ones with more shit going on, I don't trust DF heals and I'm usually right.
    It's not as black and white as I pointed out, but shitty healers who let you almost die tend to not do much better if you've got a few hundred/thousand HP more. I'm talking specifically about folks fulltiming Vitality and Shield Oath on lv50 primals. It gets a little trickier in the HW primals but not by much. And shit healers + Triple will kill a tank in Chrysalis nine times out of ten.

    I mostly just wish those tanks would see that they're plenty safe when they overgear content so much. The ilvl for Expert is what, 180? A full-VIT paladin at 180 has like, 16k HP. You're fine to enter with that much if it speeds up the run, which STR gear always will.

    Really, any time my paladin ends up tanking over a DRK or a WAR I have to wonder what the fuck is wrong with them.

  6. #6506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyall View Post
    "Who cares, we killed it" is a shitty excuse to be willfully ignorant, but some people only care about the end result, not the path to get there. Even in faceroll content now it's evident: Forcing phase script skips on the primals will take a lot of time off of the clock. But who cares about efficiency?
    Even better: "It's not the intended way to do that!"

  7. #6507
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    Don't worry, because you'll be seeing a whole bunch of STR tanks in the DF once 3.2 is out.

  8. #6508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korialstrasz View Post
    Don't worry, because you'll be seeing a whole bunch of STR tanks in the DF once 3.2 is out.

    That will be some good troll material.

  9. #6509
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    90% of 24 man raid fails aren't from unnecessary damage imo, they are generally from failure of doing the fight mechanics,
    That's usually the same thing.

  10. #6510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    That's usually the same thing.
    Well, I meant it wasn't a BLM taking damage that doesn't kill them that wipes the raid.

  11. #6511

    No, but it's the BLM taking damage, and the DRG, and the other DRG, and the tank, and the BRD, and the other BRD, etc, and now the healers can't keep up and people start dying and when one of those people is a healer shit's all downhill from there.

    When half the alliance is thinking "eh it won't kill me" and the other half is stupid and just getting hit anyway, that's a wipe, because a bunch of people thought losing a GCD would matter in the long run (it will not).

  12. #6512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    No, but it's the BLM taking damage, and the DRG, and the other DRG, and the tank, and the BRD, and the other BRD, etc, and now the healers can't keep up and people start dying and when one of those people is a healer shit's all downhill from there.

    When half the alliance is thinking "eh it won't kill me" and the other half is stupid and just getting hit anyway, that's a wipe, because a bunch of people thought losing a GCD would matter in the long run (it will not).
    There really shouldn't be any reason the Dragoons should be taking damage. The only reason I said BLM is because of its tight Enochian timer which if you end up having to move at the wrong time can mean a significant drop in your future DPS. Honestly never had any issues in A4S/A3S/Thordan Ex eating an AOE at times in order to keep my DPS up, and I don't see how faceroll 24 man content would suddenly be be harder.

  13. #6513

    You're comparing DF groups in faceroll content to your static in AS3/AS4 and don't see how they're could be differences here.


  14. #6514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You're comparing DF groups in faceroll content to your static in AS3/AS4 and don't see how they're could be differences here.



    Niiro is correct, Raid damage IS the number one cause of wipes in 24 man content.

    It the stray DRG that takes unavoidable damage on the other side of the map from the healers or the bads taking avoidable damage etc. I always put markers down before Cuchulainn (sp?) so people have a general idea where they should stand on the map. Just staying near a healer makes everything smoother in 24 man raids.

  15. #6515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyall View Post
    And shit healers + Triple will kill a tank in Chrysalis nine times out of ten.
    It goes both ways. I'm not popping Divine Seal or Benediction to save your lazy ass as a tank if you can't be arsed to pop a single magic defensive CD.

  16. #6516
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    There really shouldn't be any reason the Dragoons should be taking damage.
    Everyone thinks "No one else should be taking avoidable damage, but when I choose to take damage instead of interrupting for mechanics, it's obviously because I need to."

    Greased Lightning, Wildfire, Iron Jaws, etc.

    The overwhelmingly primary cause of failing to do mechanics is tunnel-vision DPSing. This isn't even arguable.

  17. #6517

    If you know that you can take (let's pretend this games entire mechanics weren't OHK) 2 or 3 hits in close succession without dying, and doing so increases your DPS, you should do that.

    The problem occurs when on that 4th hit, you are shit and can't dodge, then you're basically just shit.

  18. #6518
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    Just because its faceroll content doesn't mean you should run it sub-optimally.
    I wonder if a lot of people - even good people - just don't feel it's worth putting any effort at all into playing the game anymore.
    "Don't suck" only applies as far as people have shits to give. After doing the same tired, unvarying content for months for rewards that will be obsolete in a little while, I can't imagine many still go into content like Void Ark with an attentive mindset. And why should they? The game doesn't demand a whole lot of attention, and doesn't promote the feeling of camaraderie that lets you know your teammates are depending on you. I like to live by "don't suck" but man, the way that game plays just saps the fucks right out of me. The only punishment you get for sucking is wasting everyone's time, but you're doing Void Ark which is pretty much a waste of time already.

  19. #6519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You're comparing DF groups in faceroll content to your static in AS3/AS4 and don't see how they're could be differences here.
    No, i'm saying that it isn't taking the damage that is causing the wipes, its the healer being shit and not being able to cope with it that is. Sure there are times when it isn't (like person being out of range, or taking multiple hits multiple times), but taking a hit when you are refreshing enochian when you have a shield isn't going to wipe the raid. If the healer can't cope with that in Void Ark, then they need to get good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Everyone thinks "No one else should be taking avoidable damage, but when I choose to take damage instead of interrupting for mechanics, it's obviously because I need to."

    Greased Lightning, Wildfire, Iron Jaws, etc.

    The overwhelmingly primary cause of failing to do mechanics is tunnel-vision DPSing. This isn't even arguable.
    Pretty sure I said failure to do mechanics was a primary cause of wipes. And that does for Tanks and Healers too.

    I was saying that taking some damage in order to keep Enochian up is fine as long as it doesn't kill you or stop you doing the fight mechanics. Most of the time I see wipes is when a healer or tank dies and the boss goes on to kill all the high aggro DPS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    I wonder if a lot of people - even good people - just don't feel it's worth putting any effort at all into playing the game anymore.
    "Don't suck" only applies as far as people have shits to give. After doing the same tired, unvarying content for months for rewards that will be obsolete in a little while, I can't imagine many still go into content like Void Ark with an attentive mindset. And why should they? The game doesn't demand a whole lot of attention, and doesn't promote the feeling of camaraderie that lets you know your teammates are depending on you. I like to live by "don't suck" but man, the way that game plays just saps the fucks right out of me. The only punishment you get for sucking is wasting everyone's time, but you're doing Void Ark which is pretty much a waste of time already.
    Fair point, but if you get to that point, just stop doing it. Its not like Void Ark rewards are BiS or even that good. If they want to go to sleep and get better rewards, do Diadem!

  20. #6520
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    I'm guilty of eating a few of the screen-wide, except close to him, purple thunders from Cetus on BLM. BLM gets so much downtime in the second half of that fight if you have to run in and out every 20 seconds. Not to mention the big flops interrupting your casts sometimes when it goes out of sight, too.

    I go into the fight with a completely different mentality as a healer. I hate randoms who play like myself when I play BLM, simply because randoms tend to not dodge when they absolutely need to and keep eating the damage instead.

    Semi-related to 24-man content, every time I go in, there's always someone who doesn't pay attention to Cetus when he's doing those targeted water-bomb drops. They're always so focused on the adds that they don't see the boss coming for them. That's more irritating than anything.